The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 31, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
Firstly, there wasn’t a parliamentary majority for a second referendum. Secondly, ignoring the ERG and the extreme Brexiteers (weirdos as I’ve said before !) I’d imagine most of the Leavers don’t want a No Deal. Thirdly, give the man a chance, Boris has not even had the opportunity to see if any improvements could be made to the withdrawal agreement.

If you want to pick referendum extremes you could offer No Deal v Revoke article 50 and accept a more closely integrated Europe (which will undoubtedly happen).

That’s the problem with a lot of the No Deal talk, it’s not No Deal that most people are trying to stop, it’s still Brexit altogether.

I respect your view and honesty on the subject Brighton, it’s more than most of the staunch Remainers in the public eye.

Parliament needs a break to the deadlock and it has needed one for months. I would be very glad to have an end to the dithering one way or the other and the country can have some certainty. It is also nothing to be ashamed of to admit a mistake. Some are under the impression that we want Brexit to fail-wrong, I live in this country and voted to preserve it in 2014. But if enough people still want it to go through, and that 'Leave means Leave', then it should be decided by the electorate with a legal bind on the result. The politicians, especially those entrusted to execute this process, have proven incapable.

Boris Johnson is a man with an extensive track record of lies, deceit and incompetence. He has already shown his tactical nous by appointing an English MP to the Scotland Office.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
No deal vs remain at the current terms? So if anything changes in terms of further integration you would accept a breach of that is not what many remainers want? You can’t just pigeon hole one side of the argument.

Vs Remain and reform. Wanting to remain a member doesn't equate the belief that it's a perfect organisation. You keep telling us how 'Leave means Leave'-if you're a man of your convictions you will have no issue putting that on the ballot paper, and nor will anyone who really wants out at all costs.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
Even if Brexit stand down? Johnson would have 42% if they did on latest polling and the labour and Lib Dem’s are divided so I think he will have a real chance of a majority

Dumb and Dumber on either side of the Atlantic. You decide who's who

Grendel · Jul 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Vs Remain and reform. Wanting to remain a member doesn't equate the belief that it's a perfect organisation. You keep telling us how 'Leave means Leave'-if you're a man of your convictions you will have no issue putting that on the ballot paper, and nor will anyone who really wants out at all costs.

So those who vote remain now have to sign in blood. So if we have the veto removed and then say our vat rate is set at Brussels at 30% you are saying that’s life chap you need to be a slave and democracy no longer exists

Wow

Grendel · Jul 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Dumb and Dumber on either side of the Atlantic. You decide who's who

Oh I think the UK will decide and whatever one says about Mr Johnson he’s a lot smarter than your jew hating IRA mate

Grendel · Jul 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Vs Remain and reform. Wanting to remain a member doesn't equate the belief that it's a perfect organisation. You keep telling us how 'Leave means Leave'-if you're a man of your convictions you will have no issue putting that on the ballot paper, and nor will anyone who really wants out at all costs.

Also I assume with this narrative you are fundamentally opposed to Scotland having another referendum?

Grendel · Jul 31, 2019

martcov said:
Who said remain at the current terms for eternity or else it doesn’t count? Remain assumes the EU will evolve as it always has done and would not be fit for purpose if it did not deal with challenges. We have vetos and we have article 50 if the EU actually does something terrible like becoming governed by a far right government.

Is that why the government in the original 1970’s referendum stopped the publication of cabinet minutes as it felt the true intent of the Eu would not sit well with the British public?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
So those who vote remain now have to sign in blood. So if we have the veto removed and then say our vat rate is set at Brussels at 30% you are saying that’s life chap you need to be a slave and democracy no longer exists

Wow

????????

Brighton Sky Blue · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
your jew hating IRA mate

Do you even think before you type?

Grendel · Jul 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Do you even think before you type?

More than you

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

shmmeee said:
Everything he’s said so far is campaigning bollocks. If you think it’ll survive past an election I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

That‘s what I said. It’s all bollocks. All that will survive is the tax cuts for the higher wage earners, more police ( not 20000 ) and a bit more military spending. Promises that won’t be kept.

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
Oh I think the UK will decide and whatever one says about Mr Johnson he’s a lot smarter than your jew hating IRA mate

An opportunist. Lots of fancy words and rhetoric. Lack of substance, lack of detail, lack of long term strategy, a bit on the lazy side, dishonest and dodges responsibility. You could call that smart, but at the end of the day, he won’t succeed because of the flaws in his character.

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
Is that why the government in the original 1970’s referendum stopped the publication of cabinet minutes as it felt the true intent of the Eu would not sit well with the British public?

No idea. Whatever the true intent is, it won’t happen without consent.

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

Grendel said:
So those who vote remain now have to sign in blood. So if we have the veto removed and then say our vat rate is set at Brussels at 30% you are saying that’s life chap you need to be a slave and democracy no longer exists

Wow

Wow indeed. What are you on?

Sick Boy · Jul 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Do you even think before you type?

Weirdly if you were to vote for party that was setup to solely focus on remain you’d be fine to vote for an IRA sympathiser, who also believes ISIS videos are okay, as well as those looking to download child porn.

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
I’m not sure from what Geoffrey Cox recently said that parliament can stop No Deal, certainly not without an election, however, even if that happens it might not stop Brexit. I’m saying this without wanting a No Deal (as I have said many times before)

So, it comes back to whether the withdrawal agreement be amended sufficiently to get it through parliament. Without it being changed it can’t get through parliament. Mays tried as we know !

I say misjudged the situation as in this could end up being an accidental No Deal ie where neither side wants it but hasn’t got the will or the ability to move sufficiently to avoid it.

Ps I honestly can’t get my head around why the WA can’t be reopened/amended (when it obviously can’t get through parliament as it stands) ?

Because 28 countries agreed to it. Now one of them wants to start again. No. We had a couple of years discussing it. The back stop was a UK request. It was granted and the WA was agreed in order to progress. The red lines were set by the UK, not the EU. That’s it. Take it or leave it.

CCFCSteve · Jul 31, 2019

martcov said:
Because 28 countries agreed to it. Now one of them wants to start again. No. We had a couple of years discussing it. The back stop was a UK request. It was granted and the WA was agreed in order to progress. The red lines were set by the UK, not the EU. That’s it. Take it or leave it.

I’m just highlighting the reality of the situation ie the WA cannot pass through parliament as it stands. As we all know, the government has tried three times !

martcov · Jul 31, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
I’m just highlighting the reality of the situation ie the WA cannot pass through parliament as it stands. As we all know, the government has tried three times !

So, no deal it is then. Which no one wants.

dutchman · Aug 1, 2019

Sick Boy said:
And it’s ironic that the likes of ERG have managed to stop Brexit from happening!

Not really. They've stopped a "Brexit in name only" from happening ie: May's treasonous sell-out to the EU-Superstate.

dutchman · Aug 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Parliament needs a break to the deadlock and it has needed one for months. I would be very glad to have an end to the dithering one way or the other and the country can have some certainty. It is also nothing to be ashamed of to admit a mistake. Some are under the impression that we want Brexit to fail-wrong, I live in this country and voted to preserve it in 2014. But if enough people still want it to go through, and that 'Leave means Leave', then it should be decided by the electorate with a legal bind on the result. The politicians, especially those entrusted to execute this process, have proven incapable.

They're 'capable' alright, they simply don't believe in it. Cameron didn't, May didn't and I'm not convinced Boris does either.

Astute · Aug 1, 2019

martcov said:
So, no deal it is then. Which no one wants.

Exactly.

As I said from the start the EU will push for what is best for them. That is their right. May bowed down to them and tried to push through what they wanted. But as we all know it failed miserably. If BJ keeps to what he is saying the choice will be down to the EU. Let us leave without a deal or finally negotiate.

The so called divorce payment would have kept the finances going from what they would have taken from us for years. And in this time a deal would be agreed. But now with BJ saying that the divorce payment wouldn't be made they have the choice. The billions we hand over would have to be covered in some way.

So where would it come from? Cuts to funding? Better off countries handing over billions more?

Barnier has been telling all the leaders they have to stand firm. But of course the other countries in the EU are getting worried. Less funding/higher payments isn't what was promised. The deadline has been set. Another extension of the deadline has been offered. What more can be offered?

I am in France visiting my wife and kids. A French bloke brought up the subject with me in the pub. They dislike Macron but dislike the EU even more. Most of the money that goes to France goes to those who don't need it. Their PM does nothing for the poorer people. And they don't want to be pulled closer to Germany. Top priority is the church and religion. Then it is a dislike and mistrust of Germany.

Time heals. But so much happened that the healing process will take many years. And us being British makes us welcome just about everywhere. Many parts of France will be devastated with a no deal. Brits play a big part in France. They think Macron is just dancing to whatever tune Germany plays.

All this crap going on is really sad.

Sick Boy · Aug 1, 2019

Astute said:
Exactly.

As I said from the start the EU will push for what is best for them. That is their right. May bowed down to them and tried to push through what they wanted. But as we all know it failed miserably. If BJ keeps to what he is saying the choice will be down to the EU. Let us leave without a deal or finally negotiate.

The so called divorce payment would have kept the finances going from what they would have taken from us for years. And in this time a deal would be agreed. But now with BJ saying that the divorce payment wouldn't be made they have the choice. The billions we hand over would have to be covered in some way.

So where would it come from? Cuts to funding? Better off countries handing over billions more?

Barnier has been telling all the leaders they have to stand firm. But of course the other countries in the EU are getting worried. Less funding/higher payments isn't what was promised. The deadline has been set. Another extension of the deadline has been offered. What more can be offered?

I am in France visiting my wife and kids. A French bloke brought up the subject with me in the pub. They dislike Macron but dislike the EU even more. Most of the money that goes to France goes to those who don't need it. Their PM does nothing for the poorer people. And they don't want to be pulled closer to Germany. Top priority is the church and religion. Then it is a dislike and mistrust of Germany.

Time heals. But so much happened that the healing process will take many years. And us being British makes us welcome just about everywhere. Many parts of France will be devastated with a no deal. Brits play a big part in France. They think Macron is just dancing to whatever tune Germany plays.

All this crap going on is really sad.

There’s also quite a bit of anti-British sentiment there due to houses in rural areas being bought as holiday homes

The problem with Johnson is that he is all hot air. What’s his solution for the Irish border?

Positive thinking.

He has no actual solutions and will end up taking the UK out without a deal, which is a hell of a long way from what he said back in 2016.

It’s time the UK took some responsibility and stopped trying to blame others for its problems.

djr8369 · Aug 1, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
If the EU want a deal they just need to say let’s talk but they aren’t budging. I’m sure they’ve war gamed the scenarios but I think they might, for the first time in negotiations, have misjudged the situation, which isn't good for anyone. I think they hope parliament will be able to prevent a No deal and an extension will be required or an election will happen which may lead to us remaining - both currently appear unlikely.

!

It’s more complex than the EU just wanting to talk though. There are legal obstacles to reopening the WA and there doesn’t really seem to be the political will to reopen it (look at the comments coming from the EU). There’s also the time factor, it took 2 years to negotiate, it’s unlikely to be tweaked and signed of by 27 member states before the deadline.

Then there’s the fact the main issue is (supposedly) the back stop which was largely our creation that we now have a problem with. So it’s probably down to us to put forward an olive branch and hint at dropping one of our redlines and ask for a long extension to renegotiate. As both of those things have been ruled out by us you can only really conclude our government isn’t really being genuine. Whether that is to force us to no deal or try to play hardball and hope it changes the EU stance I’m not sure.

Even if we could rectify the above issues is there a solution to the backstop which would keep leavers happy and is even remotely feasible?

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Sick Boy · Aug 1, 2019

djr8369 said:
It’s more complex than the EU just wanting to talk though. There are legal obstacles to reopening the WA and there doesn’t really seem to be the political will to reopen it (look at the comments coming from the EU). There’s also the time factor, it took 2 years to negotiate, it’s unlikely to be tweaked and signed of by 27 member states before the deadline.

Then there’s the fact the main issue is (supposedly) the back stop which was largely our creation that we now have a problem with. So it’s probably down to us to put forward an olive branch and hint at dropping one of our redlines and ask for a long extension to renegotiate. As both of those things have been ruled out by us you can only really conclude our government isn’t really being genuine. Whether that is to force us to no deal or try to play hardball and hope it changes the EU stance I’m not sure.

Even if we could rectify the above issues is there a solution to the backstop which would keep leavers happy and is even remotely feasible?

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If it wasn’t for the DUP then I think they’d have happily cut NI loose.

djr8369 · Aug 1, 2019

Sick Boy said:
There’s also quite a bit of anti-British sentiment there due to houses in rural areas being bought as holiday homes

The problem with Johnson is that he is all hot air. What’s his solution for the Irish border?

Positive thinking.

He has no actual solutions and will end up taking the UK out without a deal, which is a hell of a long way from what he said back in 2016.

It’s time the UK took some responsibility and stopped trying to blame others for its problems.

Exactly, if we want to do something then I’m afraid at this point it’s on us to start putting ideas out there and see if any of them gain traction. Some members of the government are talking about Ireland like they’re some colony that just needs to keep its mouth shut and do what they’re told.

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djr8369 · Aug 1, 2019

Sick Boy said:
If it wasn’t for the DUP then I think they’d have happily cut NI loose.

I disagree in that I don’t think they would but that is one of the possible sacrifices that could make an orderly Brexit possible. I don’t think there’s a version of Brexit that doesn’t involve a sacrifice. Unfortunately leavers have been promised that it won’t need sacrifice and so it’s seems we’re headed for no deal and hope for the best.

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CCFCSteve · Aug 1, 2019

djr8369 said:
It’s more complex than the EU just wanting to talk though. There are legal obstacles to reopening the WA and there doesn’t really seem to be the political will to reopen it (look at the comments coming from the EU). There’s also the time factor, it took 2 years to negotiate, it’s unlikely to be tweaked and signed of by 27 member states before the deadline.

Then there’s the fact the main issue is (supposedly) the back stop which was largely our creation that we now have a problem with. So it’s probably down to us to put forward an olive branch and hint at dropping one of our redlines and ask for a long extension to renegotiate. As both of those things have been ruled out by us you can only really conclude our government isn’t really being genuine. Whether that is to force us to no deal or try to play hardball and hope it changes the EU stance I’m not sure.

Even if we could rectify the above issues is there a solution to the backstop which would keep leavers happy and is even remotely feasible?

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There was something similar discussed in the Malthouse compromise which was raised earlier in the year (inc extended transition)

Look I’m not pointing the finger at the EU, they have negotiated how I would have expected, however, people on the remain side will always blame Mays ‘red lines’ people on the other side will point to the sequencing proposed by the EU (and wrongly accepted by May)

The backstop is an issue because people (wrongly in my view) believe we could be trapped in it forever and will have to follow new rules implemented during the backstop period that could damage us. This wouldn’t have been such a major issue if proper trade talks and general understanding of trade would have been discussed concurrently (this would also removed Labours only argument against the WA, a blind Brexit ! I’m sure they’d have found another reason to oppose though). Unfortunately, trade could only be discussed post backstop agreement etc....so everyone’s energies/bad will etc has been wasted on this.

I’ve never seen the split of the divorce settlement but let’s say around £24bn would be transitional period funding/contribution. I’ve always believed that a proposal whereby the balance is only payable subject to a free trade agreement being reached (incentivising the EU to do a quick deal - removing the arguments from the ERG etc) and/or agreement that no new EU trade laws which negatively impact the UKs trade could be brought in during the backstop period, then the backstop probably works and gets through parliament. During the transition period I’d be shocked if a technological solution couldn’t be found in conjunction with whatever trade agreement reached

I’m sure there are potential issues/challenges regarding the above however there are options/tweaks that might work....but it will need the WA to be reopened....albeit briefly !

djr8369 · Aug 1, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
There was something similar discussed in the Malthouse compromise which was raised earlier in the year (inc extended transition)

Look I’m not pointing the finger at the EU, they have negotiated how I would have expected, however, people on the remain side will always blame Mays ‘red lines’ people on the other side will point to the sequencing proposed by the EU (and wrongly accepted by May)

The backstop is an issue because people (wrongly in my view) believe we could be trapped in it forever and will have to follow new rules implemented during the backstop period that could damage us. This wouldn’t have been such a major issue if proper trade talks and general understanding of trade would have been discussed concurrently (this would also removed Labours only argument against the WA, a blind Brexit ! I’m sure they’d have found another reason to oppose though). Unfortunately, trade could only be discussed post backstop agreement etc....so everyone’s energies/bad will etc has been wasted on this.

I’ve never seen the split of the divorce settlement but let’s say around £24bn would be transitional period funding/contribution. I’ve always believed that a proposal whereby the balance is only payable subject to a free trade agreement being reached (incentivising the EU to do a quick deal - removing the arguments from the ERG etc) and/or agreement that no new EU trade laws which negatively impact the UKs trade could be brought in during the backstop period, then the backstop probably works and gets through parliament. During the transition period I’d be shocked if a technological solution couldn’t be found in conjunction with whatever trade agreement reached

I’m sure there are potential issues/challenges regarding the above however there are options/tweaks that might work....but it will need the WA to be reopened....albeit briefly !

You’re right there are tweaks that could be made but as we’re just asking for it to be dropped and not asking for an extension it doesn’t seem like we’re making a genuine offer to negotiate anything and instead painting it as the EUs fault to mobilise leave voters for a genuine election.

Of course people are totally buying this and ignoring any complications once again.

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 1, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
I've recently discovered that you're from the black country

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And your point is?

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SkyblueBazza · Aug 1, 2019

Sick Boy said:
It explains a lot

What like you guys are suggesting? Some sort of stereotyping or discrimination might be in order or something?

Rich coming from ultra-pro-remain people given the slants thrown at leave voters over the last 3yrs or so isn't it?

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Deleted member 5849 · Aug 1, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
The backstop is an issue because people (wrongly in my view) believe we could be trapped in it forever and will have to follow new rules implemented during the backstop period that could damage us. This wouldn’t have been such a major issue if proper trade talks and general understanding of trade would have been discussed concurrently (this would also removed Labours only argument against the WA, a blind Brexit ! I’m sure they’d have found another reason to oppose though). Unfortunately, trade could only be discussed post backstop agreement etc....so everyone’s energies/bad will etc has been wasted on this.

I tend to agree. A solution would have to be found to the backstop anyway so, if they'd voted for the withdrawal agreement, they could have been looking for that solution having fulfilled their 'promise' to leave the EU. As it is... they're looking for the solution, having not left the EU. Ultimately the withdrawal agreement didn't shape the terms after either, they still need to be negotiated so... if it wasn't for the remainers that are the ERG, then the pledge to leave the EU would have happened.

Sick Boy · Aug 1, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
What like you guys are suggesting? Some sort of stereotyping or discrimination might be in order or something?

Rich coming from ultra-pro-remain people given the slants thrown at leave voters over the last 3yrs or so isn't it?

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Hahaha minus a sense of humour as well.

I’ve been an advocate of the EEA route as a compromise, hardly ultra pro remain is it.

SkyblueBazza · Aug 1, 2019

CCFCSteve said:
I’m just highlighting the reality of the situation ie the WA cannot pass through parliament as it stands. As we all know, the government has tried three times !

Unless someone is banking on returning with more slight changes but a definitive & stark this is it no extensions, no remain, we leave 31/10 - so final answer...this deal or no deal!

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Deleted member 5849 · Aug 1, 2019

SkyblueBazza said:
so final answer...this deal or no deal!

Or remain.

SkyblueBazza · Aug 1, 2019

Deleted member 5849 said:
Or remain.

No that is clearly not an option. At the moment it is set that we are leaving 31/10.

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The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

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