The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (11 Viewers)

[djr8369]

The source of all other countries across Europe as well. It’s hardly defensive just curiosity at the selection of the country you live in as the example you choose.

Because we were talking about us redistributing our wealth! The actions of any other country weren’t relevant to the conversation.


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[Grendel]

That doesn’t make it not true. As usual you’re focusing on distraction rather than addressing anything directly.


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No I am saying it is a complete irrelevance as all European societies throughout history have plundered, raped and pillaged - some a lot more recent than others

 

[Grendel]

Because we were talking about us redistributing our wealth! The actions of any other country weren’t relevant to the conversation.


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Nor therefore is historically looking out how such wealth was obtained

Frankly it’s ironic isn’t it?

Now we don’t have a country in Europe pillaging and taking slaves and their monetary independence through war but by economic invasion and oddly that’s something you find morally acceptable

 

[djr8369]

No I am saying it is a complete irrelevance as all European societies throughout history have plundered, raped and pillaged - some a lot more recent than others

The conversation was about whether or not our foreign aid is generous. The historic source of that wealth is hardly irrelevant. What other countries engaged in that behaviour is irrelevant though.


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[Grendel]

Of course they did. No one is suggesting otherwise. No one did it as “well” as us though which is why the point is very pertinent to the conversation you’re doing you’re best to distract from. I was in Bristol (also happens to be one of my favourite cities in the country) for work yesterday. Full of beautiful old colonial buildings, clearly Bristol was a very wealthy city in its day. Tell me. What was that wealth built on?

I’m not sure whet your point is. If you went to wealthy German cities across its rail system to you automatically cast your mind back to a more recent past when the infrastructure was maintained by slave labour camps from around Eastern Europe?

 

[Grendel]

The conversation was about whether or not our foreign aid is generous. The historic source of that wealth is hardly irrelevant. What other countries engaged in that behaviour is irrelevant though.


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No it’s all the same and as it’s all the same to single one country is indeed an irrelevance

 

[djr8369]

I’m not sure whet your point is. If you went to wealthy German cities across its rail system to you automatically cast your mind back to a more recent past when the infrastructure was maintained by slave labour camps from around Eastern Europe?

Interesting that you focus on labour camps as the source but not the more relevant and more recent post war aid which of course has been mentioned numerous times on this very thread.


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[Grendel]

Interesting that you focus on labour camps as the source but not the more relevant and more recent post war aid which of course has been mentioned numerous times on this very thread.


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Not really as Tony mentioned Bristol and a quiz question we know the answer to - so my statement has far more relevance. Do you ever visit Spa cities and wonder how the buildings were built and the slaves that died from those bad old Italians?

I suspect not.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’m not sure whet your point is. If you went to wealthy German cities across its rail system to you automatically cast your mind back to a more recent past when the infrastructure was maintained by slave labour camps from around Eastern Europe?

Which only serves to prove that the victors get to write history. You give the impression that plundering other countries and dealing in the slave trade means there’s nothing to see here and that the wealth this country has been built on somehow magically appeared from somewhere else presumably within the shores of the British Isles. That’s clearly not the case as seen in every aspect of British life from the food we eat, the beverages we drink, the architecture, fashions over the years. Everything. I’m not sure what point you think you’re making by being in denial of the events that put the Great in Great Britain. No one is holding you personally responsible so there’s no shame in acknowledging our countries history regardless of how uncomfortable it sits with some of us.

 

[Grendel]

Which only serves to prove that the victors get to write history. You give the impression that plundering other countries and dealing in the slave trade means there’s nothing to see here and that the wealth this country has been built on somehow magically appeared from somewhere else presumably within the shores of the British Isles. That’s clearly not the case as seen in every aspect of British life from the food we eat, the beverages we drink, the architecture, fashions over the years. Everything. I’m not sure what point you think you’re making by being in denial of the events that put the Great in Great Britain. No one is holding you personally responsible so there’s no shame in acknowledging our countries history regardless of how uncomfortable it sits with some of us.

You seem to have missed the point.

Every country is identical therefore every country that has built wealth has done so through exploitation of others

The irony of course is it’s happening now in the shale of the EU and it’s pursuit of wealth for the few at the expense of the many and that is all fine and dandy

Also I thought this started with the opposite assumption - victors don’t write history but lay foundations to benefit the defeated at the expense of themselves

 

[skybluetony176]

Not really as Tony mentioned Bristol and a quiz question we know the answer to - so my statement has far more relevance. Do you ever visit Spa cities and wonder how the buildings were built and the slaves that died from those bad old Italians?

I suspect not.

Very little of the Roman architecture still exists in most these places. Most of its Victorian when the fashion of spa’s returned. Most of Bath’s famous architecture was funded by what was going on down the road in Bristol.

 

[skybluetony176]

You seem to have missed the point.

Every country is identical therefore every country that has built wealth has done so through exploitation of others

The irony of course is it’s happening now in the shale of the EU and it’s pursuit of wealth for the few at the expense of the many and that is all fine and dandy

Also I thought this started with the opposite assumption - victors don’t write history but lay foundations to benefit the defeated at the expense of themselves

I acknowledged that point in my second reply to you on this subject so I’m not sure how you think I’ve missed your point.

 

[djr8369]

Not really as Tony mentioned Bristol and a quiz question we know the answer to - so my statement has far more relevance. Do you ever visit Spa cities and wonder how the buildings were built and the slaves that died from those bad old Italians?

I suspect not.

My point was you’ve selectively cited labour camps rather than post war aid because using post war aid as an example would have negated your point as it has been mentioned extensively.

For a sixth form level debate you need a lot of it spelled out explicitly for you.


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[martcov]

I was talking generally in response to your comment about us being lazy and careless. I disagreed. Djr then asked for examples

I also disagree with the term ‘economic decline’, I’m not sure that’s an fair assessment. For the size of our country and the natural resources at our disposal we have done pretty well. We could all hark back to the cost of two world wars and probably the our generosity in dealings with Germany (which was the correct thing to do). However, we are still consistently around 5-6th best performing economy in the world.

Mart - in response to your comments about self criticism, I think most people acknowledge faults of the past, even though most of us (and even parents and some grandparents) weren’t alive so had no influence. Whatever ever people want to believe we remain one of the most tolerant and accepting countries in the world.

I hope that we stay tolerant and accepting. People like TR are not a good example of tolerance and acceptance.

The BXP and UKIP fans don’t see the same value in foreign aid as you do. I see it as both a nice thing to do and as soft power which is preferable to military adventures.

 

[Grendel]

My point was you’ve selectively cited labour camps rather than post war aid because using post war aid as an example would have negated your point as it has been mentioned extensively.

For a sixth form level debate you need a lot of it spelled out explicitly for you.


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I really don’t as I initially responded to your curious comment about wealth and where it’s obtained which oddly is through exploitation. Something you seen content with in modern Europe

 

[Grendel]

No it isn’t ironic. Yesterday the attitude shown on here to Germany was clearly a form of racism.


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Yet you support an institution who leadership are openly racist

 

[djr8369]

Yet you support an institution who leadership are openly racist

Who do I support and how are they racist?


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[Grendel]

Who do I support and how are they racist?


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You are pro EU are you not? By your definition Mr Junker is openly racist isn’t he?

 

[djr8369]

I really don’t as I initially responded to your curious comment about wealth and where it’s obtained which oddly is through exploitation. Something you seen content with in modern Europe

The real irony is that one of the original points that started the conversation was EU wealth distribution.


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[djr8369]

You are pro EU are you not? By your definition Mr Junker is openly racist isn’t he?

I am neutral on the EU I just think Brexit is an insane decision perpetrated by conmen.

I had no opinion on our status in the EU until the referendum.

Even if I was pro EU that doesn’t mean I endorse specific individuals within the organisation.

Again with the distraction. This is essentially the same argument as “but other countries”.



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[martcov]

Are you going to accuse people of being Nazis again today?



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That’s more of an evening thing for Grendel. He starts getting ratty.

 

[Grendel]

I am neutral on the EU I just think Brexit is an insane decision perpetrated by conmen.

I had no opinion on our status in the EU until the referendum.

Even if I was pro EU that doesn’t mean I endorse specific individuals within the organisation.

Again with the distraction. This is essentially the same argument as “but other countries”.



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Well it isn’t a distraction is it as you throw the racist slur around yet oddly never condemned for example Mr junker and his views on that all Italians are lazy and should stop moaning and work harder. Or indeed his un-ejected henchman Gunter Oertinger and his unfortunate old gag about all chinkies looking the same and having slitty eyes

I don’t believe you abstained from the referendum either but anyway

 

[Grendel]

That’s more of an evening thing for Grendel. He starts getting ratty.

I’m not ratty - I think cancelling Article 50 is straight out of the nazi handbook on how to deal with issues that are against the will of the dictatorship and anyone who suggests it is as contemptible as the national socialists from the 30’s

 

[martcov]

Nor therefore is historically looking out how such wealth was obtained

Frankly it’s ironic isn’t it?

Now we don’t have a country in Europe pillaging and taking slaves and their monetary independence through war but by economic invasion and oddly that’s something you find morally acceptable

The City if London is full of money, much of it from dubious sources. Britain is not classed as clean when it comes to laundering money. It would be hard to economically invade the City.

 

[martcov]

I’m not ratty - I think cancelling Article 50 is straight out of the nazi handbook on how to deal with issues that are against the will of the dictatorship and anyone who suggests it is as contemptible as the national socialists from the 30’s

The National Socialists would be on your side. Hence the word National in the title. The socialist bit died with the elimination of Gregor Strasser.

No way would the Nazis have pooled sovereignty with lesser nations in the form of the EU. Their program was an independent free country deciding everything for itself led by a leader who established himself as head of a party based on the Führerprinzip, which meant he couldn’t be removed as leader. Sound familiar?

 

[martcov]

You are pro EU are you not? By your definition Mr Junker is openly racist isn’t he?

It’s Juncker not Junker. He is not the EU and he leaves his position on 31. October.

 

[djr8369]

Well it isn’t a distraction is it as you throw the racist slur around yet oddly never condemned for example Mr junker and his views on that all Italians are lazy and should stop moaning and work harder. Or indeed his un-ejected henchman Gunter Oertinger and his unfortunate old gag about all chinkies looking the same and having slitty eyes

I don’t believe you abstained from the referendum either but anyway

Of course it’s a distraction as it isn’t relevant to the discussion. Your counter point is essentially “other people in the world are racist”. That’s after your comments about a sixth form level of debate and sarcasm of “what a well thought out point”. Now that’s irony.

I didn’t throw the racist slur around I called it you because you wrongly accused somebody of being a Nazi and your comments on Germany suggest hints of racism.

I don’t condone the quotes above. As you point out they are racist by definition.

I also didn’t claim to have abstained on the vote. I said I’m neutral on the EU but think Brexit is an insane idea.

To clarify, I’m neutral on the EU as an organisation, I don’t particularly care if we’re a member or not but believe in the level of cooperation involved is positive and there are few, if any tangible benefits to leaving. I believe Brexit to be a bad idea badly implemented backed by charlatans.


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[skybluetony176]

Well it isn’t a distraction is it as you throw the racist slur around yet oddly never condemned for example Mr junker and his views on that all Italians are lazy and should stop moaning and work harder. Or indeed his un-ejected henchman Gunter Oertinger and his unfortunate old gag about all chinkies looking the same and having slitty eyes

I don’t believe you abstained from the referendum either but anyway

Presumably your piss would boil then if someone described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and bank robbers, or black people as piccaninnies with water melon smiles, or if they accused a black president of having a chip on their shoulder, or for suggesting that black people from another continent are cannibals, or suggesting that white colonialism would be best for Africa? Presumably you would never entertain voting for such a person given your disdain for Junkers comments.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I’m not ratty - I think cancelling Article 50 is straight out of the nazi handbook on how to deal with issues that are against the will of the dictatorship and anyone who suggests it is as contemptible as the national socialists from the 30’s

Cancelling Article 50 is NOT cancelling Brexit. A strong British government would not have invoked Article 50 in the first place because it then set the deadlines etc. and reduces their opportunities to negotiate. They did so because the EU told them they had to - what would the EU have done had they refused? Another example of our supposed great negotiators being played off the park by the EU. These are the same people we're supposed to have faith in to get great trade agreements post Brexit.......

 

[djr8369]

I’m not ratty - I think cancelling Article 50 is straight out of the nazi handbook on how to deal with issues that are against the will of the dictatorship and anyone who suggests it is as contemptible as the national socialists from the 30’s

Grendel, it’s fine for you to disagree on revocation of A50 but when you compare it to the Nazis it’s really transparent that you’re doing it because the likes of Farage, Trump and the Brexit party have been compared to the Nazis with examples that are very hard to counter.

Of course the irony is that the real example of fascism is that the mandate from the referendum was for a “great deal” and access to the single market. This has now been altered, partly by propaganda, to no deal being the preferred option and anyone who disagrees is a traitor. Now that’s a pretty dam good example of fascism.


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[djr8369]

Presumably your piss would boil then if someone described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and bank robbers, or black people as piccaninnies with water melon smiles, or if they accused a black president of having a chip on their shoulder, or for suggesting that black people from another continent are cannibals, or suggesting that white colonialism would be best for Africa? Presumably you would never entertain voting for such a person given your disdain for Junkers comments.

The mental gymnastics are astounding aren’t they


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[skybluetony176]

Cancelling Article 50 is NOT cancelling Brexit. A strong British government would not have invoked Article 50 in the first place because it then set the deadlines etc. and reduces their opportunities to negotiate. They did so because the EU told them they had to - what would the EU have done had they refused? Another example of our supposed great negotiators being played off the park by the EU. These are the same people we're supposed to have faith in to get great trade agreements post Brexit.......

Easiest deal in history said Liam Fox who hasn’t even succeeded in getting existing deals rolled forward past Brexit, we’ll be able to make individual deals with EU countries said Brexit Secretary David “fingers on the pulse” Davies. They’ll be falling over themselves to give us everything we want because they still want to sell us cheese, wine and cars said numerous charlatans connected to the Brexit campaign.

 

[Grendel]

The City if London is full of money, much of it from dubious sources. Britain is not classed as clean when it comes to laundering money. It would be hard to economically invade the City.

What an absurd statement with zero basis in fact

 

[Grendel]

Grendel, it’s fine for you to disagree on revocation of A50 but when you compare it to the Nazis it’s really transparent that you’re doing it because the likes of Farage, Trump and the Brexit party have been compared to the Nazis with examples that are very hard to counter.

Of course the irony is that the real example of fascism is that the mandate from the referendum was for a “great deal” and access to the single market. This has now been altered, partly by propaganda, to no deal being the preferred option and anyone who disagrees is a traitor. Now that’s a pretty dam good example of fascism.


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I maintain and I believe that the EU is the 4th reich and is deployment of national socialist policies via economic strategy and labour exploitation coupled with economic and fiscal control

I have no interest in Trump, farage etc and am pleased the UK parliament is not awash with extremist bigots compared to those across Europe

 

[Grendel]

Presumably your piss would boil then if someone described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and bank robbers, or black people as piccaninnies with water melon smiles, or if they accused a black president of having a chip on their shoulder, or for suggesting that black people from another continent are cannibals, or suggesting that white colonialism would be best for Africa? Presumably you would never entertain voting for such a person given your disdain for Junkers comments.

I would suggest you will struggle to find any positive comments I have ever said about Mr Johnson - his racism is pretty small beer compared to the likes of Mr Corbyn however