The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

martcov · Apr 21, 2019

PTA said:
Right so first of all no, you can't find any quotes similar to Hitler. And secondly, what you're basically saying is that both Farage and Hitler are populist, and that's really only it. I agree you can find similarities in that sense but actually you're just showing that radicals (stretching from moderate ones like Farage all the way to Hitler) only get anywhere when the status quo is absolute crap, eg having a choice between May and Corbyn as PM, and it's the same principle with the Nazis after the Great Depression. Farage is the product of giving away too much power to the EU over the past 20 years and the 'ordinary people' becoming disconnected from Westminster and nothing more, he's not a neo-Nazi, and labelling him as having similar rhetoric to Hitler is just stupid.

I just posted a direct quote from Hitler which is exactly the same as Farage’s. Ok, Hitler’s bogey man was the Jew, and Farage the EU. But the rhetoric against the bogey man was identical. I also posted how Hitler discredited Weimar. The exact same arguments. OK he used Weimar and not the EU. But the argument was the same. Only the bogey man was different. There is no difference. Farage talks constantly about his 20 year struggle. Hitler talked about his struggle in speeches and wrote about his rise from being a member of an obscure party to being leader of a large movement in a relatively short time. His book was called „Mein Kampf“. My struggle. Farage will not use the exact title, but the content will be the same.

dutchman · Apr 21, 2019

At least the ECB hasn't made the same mistake as the Weimar Republic by printing 3.5 trillion euros and pumping them into circulation in the hope of stimulating the economy without inflating asset prices.

Oh hang on a minute, that's exactly what they've done!

Astute · Apr 22, 2019

martcov said:
His rhetoric is, and yes, some people are stupid enough to vote for him.

People don't vote for Farage. They vote for what he stands for.

What pisses a lot of people off is the way everything about the EU that is wrong gets defended. And it gets defended by people like yourself. It makes it harder for others to put the better parts of being in the EU forward.

dutchman · Apr 22, 2019

Astute said:
People don't vote for Farage. They vote for what he stands for.

What pisses a lot of people off is the way everything about the EU that is wrong gets defended. And it gets defended by people like yourself. It makes it harder for others to put the better parts of being in the EU forward.

Yep, 'defending the indefensible' and not even having reservations about it.

Astute · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
Yep, 'defending the indefensible' and not even having reservations about it.

Or wanting to chase those from the UK that used tax dodges but make excuses for Juncker who made the tax dodges possible.

I have a feeling that this shitfest has only just started.

Sick Boy · Apr 22, 2019

Astute said:
People don't vote for Farage. They vote for what he stands for.

What pisses a lot of people off is the way everything about the EU that is wrong gets defended. And it gets defended by people like yourself. It makes it harder for others to put the better parts of being in the EU forward.

Why should it make it harder? You could still challenge someone’s argument and put across what you believe to be good about it.

Sick Boy · Apr 22, 2019

Astute said:
Or wanting to chase those from the UK that used tax dodges but make excuses for Juncker who made the tax dodges possible.

I have a feeling that this shitfest has only just started.

I don’t think anyone has made excuses for Junker?

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

Astute said:
People don't vote for Farage. They vote for what he stands for.

What pisses a lot of people off is the way everything about the EU that is wrong gets defended. And it gets defended by people like yourself. It makes it harder for others to put the better parts of being in the EU forward.

I wasn’t defending the EU, I was pointing out the use of rhetoric by Brexiteers, that was similar, and in some cases the same, as rhetoric used in the 20s and 30s. Grendel was talking about Lammy‘s comments and asked me to discuss. You got completely the wrong end of the stick as usual.

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

PTA said:
So basically your point is that Hitler used anger against the Weimar Republic to rise to power, and now Farage is doing the same with anger about the EU and our political establishment, and I agree, it's called populism. The thing is, I don't draw that he is similar to the Nazis from this, I draw that ordinary people are disillusioned with the EU and Farage speaks for them, and it's the same kind of deal with Trump, ie lots of Americans don't like illegal immigrants so he talks about them provocatively and said Americans like this. And also the fact that Hitler didn't like the Weimar Republic wasn't an issue, the Weimar Republic was absolutely awful and destroyed the economy in the early 1930s, the issue was that he was racist, anti-semitic, homophobic, etc. So again, I don't see how Farage being populist makes him similar to Hitler in any kind of meaningful way. All you're saying is that both are political radicals, which is true.

You say the same as I do, that Farage is using populism to get power and the same or similar rhetoric as Hitler to do that. It doesn’t mean things will lead to exactly the same conclusion. It does mean that the working class will be worse off and that a certain section of society will be better off. The failings of a future far right economics based government will be blamed on minorities and traitors. Weimar was ruined by reparations and although it started to recover after hyper inflation, caused by deliberately devaluation of the mark to make reparations possible, it finally collapsed with the Great Depression started by the Wall Street collapse. Which increased unemployment in Germany to 6 million.

The constant maligning of democracy and the elected representatives by the Nazis during the Weimar Republic made it easier to pass an enabling act to enable more effective politics through „effective leadership and better control of the spending of tax payers money“. ( what Farage says the Brexit Party will bring ). The Nazis called effective leadership the „Führer Prinzip“. Basically, the leader sets the course and sees it through. Farage is hinting at this by claiming that our politicians are career politicians and can’t run the country. The Brexit Party is going to bring in leaders who have proved themselves in business to make quick effective decisions. Implies that the democratic squabbling in parliament is holding the country back. He can do it better. Exactly the same argumentation.

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

Astute said:
Or wanting to chase those from the UK that used tax dodges but make excuses for Juncker who made the tax dodges possible.

I have a feeling that this shitfest has only just started.

Juncker has nothing to do with most tax havens in the world, and in particular with the Crown Dependencies.

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
Yep, 'defending the indefensible' and not even having reservations about it.

Not allowed to defend the EU. Unpatriotic.

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
At least the ECB hasn't made the same mistake as the Weimar Republic by printing 3.5 trillion euros and pumping them into circulation in the hope of stimulating the economy without inflating asset prices.

Oh hang on a minute, that's exactly what they've done!

Where’s the hyper inflation as in the Weimar Republic? Oh wait.. there isn’t any.

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

martcov said:
I wasn’t defending the EU, I was pointing out the use of rhetoric by Brexiteers, that was similar, and in some cases the same, as rhetoric used in the 20s and 30s. Grendel was talking about Lammy‘s comments and asked me to discuss. You got completely the wrong end of the stick as usual.

No his argument was perfectly the right end of the stick and as usual you sound like a mad deranged lunatic with no coherent argument to make

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
No his argument was perfectly the right end of the stick and as usual you sound like a mad deranged lunatic with no coherent argument to make

In what way was I defending what was wrong with the EU? In what way was I wrong in pointing out the comparisons in the rhetoric? In what way am I deranged lunatic in commenting on what was actually said at a Brexit Party meeting? Maybe your comment would be better directed at the people spouting deranged crap at the meeting?

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

martcov said:
In what way was I defending what was wrong with the EU? In what way was I wrong in pointing out the comparisons in the rhetoric? In what way am I deranged lunatic in commenting on what was actually said at a Brexit Party meeting? Maybe your comment would be better directed at the people spouting deranged crap at the meeting?

Your interpretation of what was said is deranged an absurd
The irony is you support an institution which is essentially the type of economic Europe Hitler strived for and call out the very people who want freedom from it

martcov · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
Your interpretation of what was said is deranged an absurd
The irony is you support an institution which is essentially the type of economic Europe Hitler strived for and call out the very people who want freedom from it

It is word for word correct. The EU is fundamentally designed to prevent fascism. Which some don’t like. Hitler never suggested countries having veto rights or people being allowed to vote for different parties. Neither did he pass anti discrimination legislation. You are just twisting everything around to avoid the obvious conclusion that the Brexit Party propaganda fits nicely into NSDP propaganda ( simply swapping the Jews and liberals as the enemy of the people to liberals and the EU as enemies of the people ). Even worse than me pointing that out, is Lammy pointing it out for your fellows.

dutchman · Apr 22, 2019

martcov said:
Where’s the hyper inflation as in the Weimar Republic? Oh wait.. there isn’t any.

It currently exists in the form of an asset bubble which has artificially inflated the value of property, shares, bonds, etc. It will eventually burst when interest rates start to rise and the ECB is no longer able to pay off its outstanding debts by simply printing money.

Captain Dart · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
It currently exists in the form of an asset bubble which has artificially inflated the value of property, shares, bonds, etc. It will eventually burst when interest rates start to rise and the ECB is no longer able to pay off its outstanding debts by simply printing money.

They have already started to inch up.

skybluetony176 · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
It currently exists in the form of an asset bubble which has artificially inflated the value of property, shares, bonds, etc. It will eventually burst when interest rates start to rise and the ECB is no longer able to pay off its outstanding debts by simply printing money.

Didn’t the ECB stop it’s quantitative easing program last year?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
Your interpretation of what was said is deranged an absurd
The irony is you support an institution which is essentially the type of economic Europe Hitler strived for and call out the very people who want freedom from it

Go on just call it the 4th Reich...

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Go on just call it the 4th Reich...

Do you think that is not accurate? If not why?

dutchman · Apr 22, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Didn’t the ECB stop it’s quantitative easing program last year?

So it claimed at the time. There's now strong pressure to restart it again. To maintain economic activity in the eurozone at its current level (not increase it) the ECB will have to pump more money in than it ever has before.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

PTA said:
Right so first of all no, you can't find any quotes similar to Hitler. And secondly, what you're basically saying is that both Farage and Hitler are populist, and that's really only it. I agree you can find similarities in that sense but actually you're just showing that radicals (stretching from moderate ones like Farage all the way to Hitler) only get anywhere when the status quo is absolute crap, eg having a choice between May and Corbyn as PM, and it's the same principle with the Nazis after the Great Depression. Farage is the product of giving away too much power to the EU over the past 20 years and the 'ordinary people' becoming disconnected from Westminster and nothing more, he's not a neo-Nazi, and labelling him as having similar rhetoric to Hitler is just stupid.

Thing is Corbyn’s policies are popular across the board and would help those who call him a prick. Farage is a charlatan and the general public are thick. He will always have an audience-he just has to post videos with a pint next to him and his followers will wet themselves

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
Do you think that is not accurate? If not why?

I don’t think there is a German plot to take over Europe. Maybe if you ever went you’d come to that conclusion too.

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don’t think there is a German plot to take over Europe. Maybe if you ever went you’d come to that conclusion too.

I have been to Germany around 50 times?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
I have been to Germany around 50 times?

So how have you come to the conclusion they are scheming a 4th Reich?

skybluetony176 · Apr 22, 2019

dutchman said:
So it claimed at the time. There's now strong pressure to restart it again. To maintain economic activity in the eurozone at its current level (not increase it) the ECB will have to pump more money in than it ever has before.

It didn’t claim, it did. There’s pressure on the ECB to launch new stimulus packages yes, not including quantitative easing though. What are you basing it having to pump more money in that it ever has before on exactly?

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Thing is Corbyn’s policies are popular across the board and would help those who call him a prick. Farage is a charlatan and the general public are thick. He will always have an audience-he just has to post videos with a pint next to him and his followers will wet themselves

Well I would say the bright young things are fairly thick as they voted to remain and oddly think Corbyn is a Remainer as they lazily could not be bothered to check his history and associated leave with right wing policies - "they are all Nazis" doh - with no understanding a true socialist ideology finds Federalism disgusting and repugnant.

I once tried to explain this to some bright young things. They said I was a Nazi c**t and then when I said that Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn was a passionate anti EU campaigner one said he must be like the other posh c**t Rees Mogg. At that point I decided education was futile.

skybluetony176 · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
I have been to Germany around 50 times?

And still know fuck all.

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
And still know fuck all.

About what Tony - do you not think the EU is a 4th Reich project? If not can you explain why -- I am interested to hear the UKIP perspective on this

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
Well I would say the bright young things are fairly thick as they voted to remain and oddly think Corbyn is a Remainer as they lazily could not be bothered to check his history and associated leave with right wing policies - "they are all Nazis" doh - with no understanding a true socialist ideology finds Federalism disgusting and repugnant.

I once tried to explain this to some bright young things. They said I was a Nazi c**t and then when I said that Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn was a passionate anti EU campaigner one said he must be like the other posh c**t Rees Mogg. At that point I decided education was futile.

I voted Remain knowing Corbyn to be a Eurosceptic. We can all find idiots on each side of the spectrum but the empirical evidence paints a different picture. What else do you call someone who consistently votes against their own self interest

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I voted Remain knowing Corbyn to be a Eurosceptic. We can all find idiots on each side of the spectrum but the empirical evidence paints a different picture. What else do you call someone who consistently votes against their own self interest

It really does not. The funny thing is you come pretend to be socialist but are very much a Cameron clone. You despise socialism - its funny

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
It really does not. The funny thing is you come pretend to be socialist but are very much a Cameron clone. You despise socialism - its funny

I don’t pretend to be socialist I’m a bog standard social democrat. Evidence shows people want Labour policies but don’t vote for them. It shows the public have wildly false conceptions of immigration but vote Brexit because of it. Blah blah blah

skybluetony176 · Apr 22, 2019

Grendel said:
About what Tony - do you not think the EU is a 4th Reich project? If not can you explain why -- I am interested to hear the UKIP perspective on this

You are the UKIP perspective on this. You mention that you’ve been to Germany 50 times (49 probably in your imagination) as if it somehow makes you an authority on it. In which case using your own principle you must accept that Mart is the ultimate authority on Germany given that he lives and everything he says is beyond question and 100% correct.

Grendel · Apr 22, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
You are the UKIP perspective on this. You mention that you’ve been to Germany 50 times (49 probably in your imagination) as if it somehow makes you an authority on it. In which case using your own principle you must accept that Mart is the ultimate authority on Germany given that he lives and everything he says is beyond question and 100% correct.

No I think that its bullshit - it is BSB who thinks you need to hop along before you have a view. Mart yes is very pro German I agree

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (8 Viewers)

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