The demise of our club : Is our anger misdirected? (2 Viewers)

wingy · Sep 14, 2011

Would our anger be better directed towards ACL/COUNCIL? Is it not the case that these two entities have metorphorically had us up the backpassage while our pants were down please forgive the analogy.Given that the land the stadium stands on was useless,a delapidated eyesore,derelict for thirty years ,were we not the ultimate GOLDEN TICKET enabling the council the opporotunity to reinvent the entire area in the north of the city,creating 3000 new jobs .I know i will hear,whyshould they do anything for us,help us out,they have the ratepayers to consider etc etc,but when you consider what they have gained,at the very threat of our existance,surely being SKY BLUE cant allow us to accept that viewpoint.People would suggest,well you got yourself into this mess , true,we got there trying to benefit the city as well as the club.When we entered into the projected planwe were PREMIERSHIP,no account has been taken by the other party to acknowledge that factor . Instead they took land away from us .the cost of the actual stadium approached £58M,they appear to have put in£31M ,receiving £21m back over a fifty year lease @£500,000 pa with ACL running the show .What i want to know is ,should CCFC have been offered the option or were they? If not why not ?I personally don't believe the whole £250M scheme could have come to fruition without CCFC and the icon stadium ,and for that factor alone ithink we deserve some equity,theres a difference to being down and people talking you down and keeping you there. PUSB

Sub · Sep 14, 2011

To be honest i am glad the council will not sell the richo to SISU as i do not think it is the intrests of the city of coventry, tax payers or CCFC whilst SISU own us. Personaly i think that is what SISU are after owning us was a first step towards it and the revenue it produces. But the council have sussed them out. So for me ACL and the council are not to blame for anything. Just my humble opinion

wingy · Sep 14, 2011

Sub said:
To be honest i am glad the council will not sell the richo to SISU as i do not think it is the intrests of the city of coventry, tax payers or CCFC whilst SISU own us. Personaly i think that is what SISU are after owning us was a first step towards it and the revenue it produces. But the council have sussed them out. So for me ACL and the council are not to blame for anything. Just my humble opinion

Dont get me wrong sub,dont want them to get it either more to do with should it have been considered at the outset in the way they dealt with us at that point .wou dl'nt know how to solve it now ,maybe through a fans trust :thinking about:

Covstu · Sep 14, 2011

I know what you mean wingy because the place would not exist if the sky blues were not in place, however they are just simply not that silly. This is a big cash cow for ACL & council and a guaranteed revenue stream (unless we go under or move). It would be interesting on whether we have to play at the Ricoh, if we are tenants what is stopping us moving and building elsewhere or a ground share with errr The Butts? (its about our current bloody attendance!). Maybe that would force their hand??

Astute · Sep 14, 2011

We need a better income to help take our club forward. If I remember right though, the plan was to reduce expenses, get promotion then purchase the ground. We need to invest in a squad before we buy the ground. If the cash was in place to purchase the ground then we would have another player or two in by now that we are going to need during this season.

Have they tried to purchase the ground yet, or was it yet another rumour that has gone around on here?

Sub · Sep 14, 2011

did or didnt Ken say they were having a meeting with the council about this ? also owning the stadium is a vital source of income but i do not think the council will sell there share (the higgs trust might) to SISU. And if that is the case there is no long term future for SISU here as i think this is one of there main aims.

OyJimmy · Sep 14, 2011

ACL have more business acumen in it's little finger than SISU have in it's entire company. ACL are'nt in the business of loosing money. But SISU is! SISU must go.

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

What demise? Are we not still in the same league as we were 10 years ago? Are we not still languishing around the lower echelons of that league as per 10 years ago? If we survive this season, then we have every chance of being a top team next season. We play good football, our business model will be well placed with the new fair play rules and a couple of decent additions on what will be lower wages than are paid out now (due to the fair play rules), we could be challenging for the top.

I'm sorry but I really fail to see what demise has happened since being at the Ricoh?

Astute · Sep 14, 2011

SISU are an investment company. They invest in companies in a distressed position, turn them around then sell. They were never going to be with us for the long term. We are now starting to see the benefits of what they have done so far. We are now not losing millions each year and getting deeper in the sh1t. We now have a decent young team, although as we all agree a small squad. Most of the problems caused by the Richardson time with us has been sorted. We need to move forward still though. This still means living within our means. Just like nearly every other team has now started to do. We are ahead of the game here. Call it luck or what ever you want. These new rules coming out are going to put a lot of teams in difficulty.

wingy · Sep 14, 2011

the fact we avoided admin is one indicator ,the result at charlton,only carlo nash kept us up ,thats two indicators:thinking about:

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Yes, it's all about living within our means. There were those yesterday saying "yeah but, Richardson bought loads of great players". Yes, he did, but we couldn't afford them, because we don't have the income or the fan base to support the wages these players want. The Club was like an ocean liner, nearly sunk by Richardson then McGinnity, but SISU are slowly turning her round. No, we don't have a team of stars, but we do have a GOOD team and the best manager we've had in years.

Fans' blind hatred of SISU is stopping them seeing how lucky we are compared to what we've had in the past.

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

wingy said:
the fact we avoided admin is one indicator ,the result at charlton,only carlo nash kept us up ,thats two indicators:thinking about:

Indicators of what? The fact that we are not in a worse position than 5 years ago? Because my friend we did avoid admin and we did stay up.

torchomatic said:
Fans' blind hatred of SISU is stopping them seeing how lucky we are compared to what we've had in the past.

I really feel that SISU's lack of truthful communication has lead to a sort of misplaced hatred. I'll be honest and say that I was hoping that Hoff would come in and that anything would be better than SISU, but now the business plan is slowly taking effect and boyed by the recent performances (2 good draws and a good win) I think that they may be getting it right. If only they would stop fibbing to us the SISU out banners may have been WE LOVE SISU banners.

kg82 · Sep 14, 2011

torchomatic said:
Yes, it's all about living within our means. There were those yesterday saying "yeah but, Richardson bought loads of great players". Yes, he did, but we couldn't afford them, because we don't have the income or the fan base to support the wages these players want. The Club was like an ocean liner, nearly sunk by Richardson then McGinnity, but SISU are slowly turning her round. No, we don't have a team of stars, but we do have a GOOD team and the best manager we've had in years.

Fans' blind hatred of SISU is stopping them seeing how lucky we are compared to what we've had in the past.

It makes you wonder how Stoke can afford a £12 million has been and spending about £20 million on deadline day alone. They've been sensible till now but that's the sort of business that got us in to trouble. The problem with the Premiership now is that if you have any ambition to try and stay there you're going to have to live outside your means. I'd still take promotion in a heartbeat!

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

kg82 said:
It makes you wonder how Stoke can afford a £12 million has been and spending about £20 million on deadline day alone. They've been sensible till now but that's the sort of business that got us in to trouble. The problem with the Premiership now is that if you have any ambition to try and stay there you're going to have to live outside your means. I'd still take promotion in a heartbeat!

I agree QPR are a prime example of this. Swansea don't seem to stand much hope and nor do Norwich tbh

wingy · Sep 14, 2011

So you don't think that not being stakeholders hinders our progress,likely to keep pulling us backwards,no matter who's hand is on the tiller,the thread is about how the club has been treated by the powers that be,not about sisu ,whether they might to get thier hands on it .I love whats happening on the pitch ,the effort the players are putting in ,the belief they obviously have in the manager,for what he's getting out of them i'd liken himto JH,the lets get promoted theory has failed for ten years ,the stadium would offer more security than any onfield affairs ,crowds come crowds go,same for owners ,managers and players .

Sub · Sep 14, 2011

Rich said:
Indicators of what? The fact that we are not in a worse position than 5 years ago? Because my friend we did avoid admin and we did stay up.

I really feel that SISU's lack of truthful communication has lead to a sort of misplaced hatred. I'll be honest and say that I was hoping that Hoff would come in and that anything would be better than SISU, but now the business plan is slowly taking effect and boyed by the recent performances (2 good draws and a good win) I think that they may be getting it right. If only they would stop fibbing to us the SISU out banners may have been WE LOVE SISU banners.

I think you hit the nail on the head there rich its the constant lies and miss truths that create such hatred. IF its bad news its bad news but lies can not be tolerated and will not build trust with the fans.

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

I'm slowly starting to believe that SISU may have a real business plan that will work, Having said that no-one can be sure due to the amount of billy that they keep feeding us.

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

I agree to some extent. They've done some stupid stuff, but all boards do stupid stuff, promise and not deliver. Operation Premiership anyone?

I genuinely do think that the protest at the Watford game rocked them a little made them realise that they needed to start communicating at least some things with the fans. The problem is once a board says "we are going to spend £XX", then that is in the public domain and will forever be a stick to get bashed with if things turn sour. Also, SISU are in a position whereby whatever happens then they get knocked anyway, for example Marlon King:

1. SISU sign him: The Righteous and the Good complain at SISU
2. Thorne says he's staying (Marlon said so, you know), but he goes. It's SISU's fault apparently. People then complain about lack of ambition.

I certainly don't think SISU "fib" to us. I just don't think they've quite got to grips with the Club-Fan dynamic.

We are now (more or less) living within our means and that is a fantastic achievement. If fans want the Club to progress then they have to be supportive.

I think Hoffman has a lot to answer for. None of it should have been made public by either party - KD fucked up big time by disclosing the names of the investors and I don't think Hoffman came out looking too good either. I didn't want to listen to his "I love this club, I'll never give up or walk away" soundbites. I wanted him to say "It's a done deal".
Just because someone "loves the club", it doesn't mean to say that they are beyond reproach and above criticism. Hopefully, he will come back and put in a serious offer. We'll see.

Rich said:
I really feel that SISU's lack of truthful communication has lead to a sort of misplaced hatred. I'll be honest and say that I was hoping that Hoff would come in and that anything would be better than SISU, but now the business plan is slowly taking effect and boyed by the recent performances (2 good draws and a good win) I think that they may be getting it right. If only they would stop fibbing to us the SISU out banners may have been WE LOVE SISU banners.

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Could you please list the "constant lies".

Sub said:
I think you hit the nail on the head there rich its the constant lies and miss truths that create such hatred. IF its bad news its bad news but lies can not be tolerated and will not build trust with the fans.

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

torchomatic said:
Could you please list the "constant lies".

Marlon is staying
We have a meeting with the council
The club is debt free
Operation premiership
Brody will be on here to answer questions.

There are lies and there have been since SISU started communicating openly with us. Maybe they should become a closed board again and stop telling us anything?

Sub · Sep 14, 2011

if there is nothing to say good or bad news dont say anything (people will complain about no communication) but it needs to be that way instead of just spouting crap like deliu and clouting have. As fans you have to take it on the chin good or bad thats how it should be. there is to much cloak and dagger stuff and even the SISU rep onyi or what ever his name has said there communication has been awful.

Gaz · Sep 14, 2011

SISU : we have a meeting with the council for this week to talk about buying the Ricoh.

COUNCIL: we can confirm that we don't, and have never agreed to have a meeting with Sisu about owning the Ricoh Arena.

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Marlon said he was staying. He rang AT, if you remember.

Operation Premiership was before SISUs time. That wad Paul Fletcher.

As for the debt. Who knows? On paper maybe we are. It's just the running costs now that cripple us.

The Council meeting? Ken said that, not SISU. We don't know who's behind that, of course.

Rich said:
Marlon is staying
We have a meeting with the council
The club is debt free
Operation premiership
Brody will be on here to answer questions.

There are lies and there have been since SISU started communicating openly with us. Maybe they should become a closed board again and stop telling us anything?

We'll_live_and_die · Sep 14, 2011

torchomatic said:
Marlon said he was staying. He rang AT, if you remember.

Operation Premiership was before SISUs time. That wad Paul Fletcher.

As for the debt. Who knows? On paper maybe we are. It's just the running costs now that cripple us.

The Council meeting? Ken said that, not SISU. We don't know who's behind that, of course.

Ah yes so it's the board that were put in place by SISU that have been lying and not SISU. CCFC OUT!

Can you explain to us why you think there is anger toward SISU if they haven't been lying to us please?

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Sorry for being pedantic, but it was Ken not SISU who mentioned the meeting.

Hardly 'constant lies', but I do take your point. The Council meeting statement was stupid.

gaz said:
SISU : we have a meeting with the council for this week to talk about buying the Ricoh.

COUNCIL: we can confirm that we don't, and have never agreed to have a meeting with Sisu about owning the Ricoh Arena.

Gaz · Sep 14, 2011

torchomatic said:
Sorry for being pedantic, but it was Ken not SISU who mentioned the meeting.

Hardly 'constant lies', but I do take your point. The Council meeting statement was stupid.

Ah right, from now on then I will say Sisu & Ken out then.
As he is a numpty too.
Didn't realise he wasn't part of Sisu.

Sky Blue Sheepy · Sep 14, 2011

gaz said:
Ah right, from now on then I will say Sisu & Ken out then.
As he is a numpty too.
Didn't realise he wasn't part of Sisu.

As far as I'm aware, he's not...
He was appointed by SISU as a board member. He may represent them, but he is not directly part of SISU.

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Yes, it was the Chairman and not SISU. I was under the impression that Ken ran the show and was not part of SISU, maybe, I'm wrong.

As for anger. I think that has a lot to do with fans' expectations rather than anything to do with SISU mistakes.

I know fans are split over SISU and I really do respect those who want them out, but we have to stick to facts. So blaming them for Operation Premiership for example does no one any favours.

Rich said:
Ah yes so it's the board that were put in place by SISU that have been lying and not SISU. CCFC OUT!

Can you explain to us why you think there is anger toward SISU if they haven't been lying to us please?

Astute · Sep 14, 2011

I want them out. Nearly everyone wants them out. Even they want out. They will not go until they get at least their investment back. As said, we are in our best position now financially for a lot of years. Until someone comes in with fresh investment we will still have SISU running things. Not loans but pure and simple cash.

coundonskyblue · Sep 14, 2011

Is this not the sort of thing that makes politicians think were all stupid?

In 2003 CCFC would have gone bust if they hadn't sold their share in ACL to the Higgs trust, something that the Council had to approve. I remember polls being conducted by the telegraph/mercia saying that 90% of people want the council to approve it. People were saying if the council cared about the club they should do it, and they would be a discrace if they didnt.

The council then spends £113m building the club a ground, a few years later the people decide they actually didnt want it. The people also then decide they want the council to give away a £113m stadium to a group of faceless Finish investers.

Jack Griffin · Sep 14, 2011

After reading OSB/Godiva FAQs & Saturdays win I've changed my mind a bit. I am sure as hell not happy about SISU & their motivation, but I now have a little bit of hope we can avoid relegation. It is still looking risky & we need a couple of decent quality loan signings to feel more secure. It is who they sell the club too that worries me more, a far eastern gambling entrepreneur, a Russian oligarch, a Middle Eastern Prince, a Bombay Chicken Farmer, a New York Entertainment Consortium, what a choice (they may have IF they turn things around, we don't get a say) who knows what the future holds!

What I do agree with OSB & Godiva on is that the club must stop living beyond its means & racking up debts that can't be repaid, it just leads to periods of financial crisis & stress which eventually spill over to protests in the ground when the belt is tightened of pure necessity. The club (and Football in general) needs to do this permanently, I think football executives have finally realised this & are ever so slowly modifying their behaviour.

PS regards previous post, I don't think SISU are Finnish, it is just that the woman who is at the helm is Finnish-Armerican, the investors who have bought in could be from anywhere!

Nonleagueherewecome · Sep 14, 2011

torchomatic said:
Could you please list the "constant lies".

There are loads of examples, probably 30+ demonstrable, proven lies. I've spent most of the summer moaning about them on here so forgive me if I don't reel them out one more time!

But from one Brody interview alone, there was the "franchise player" and "replace King with similar status player" crap, not to mention the "promotion within 2 years, possibly one". Only one of those can possibly come true, and I'm not holding my breath based on 1 win in 7! Of course we know now that he had absolutely no idea what the hell he was talking about, but many fans may have got excited about a team kicking-on under AT with that sort of reasonable backing from the board..they will have sold season tickets on the back of that sort of guff. Cue someone telling me what a great job he must be doing, then...

torchomatic · Sep 14, 2011

Oh yeah, I forgot about that interview with Brody, that was stupid. Similarly though I think people who went out and bought season tickets on the strength of that interview are being pretty naive.

I do see where you're coming from with the 1 win in 7 thing, but still reckon we'll be alright with Thorn and the kids. If SISU are true to their word and get in some loans then we could do alright. Now, it's my turn to be naive!

Nonleagueherewecome said:
But from one Brody interview alone, there was the "franchise player" and "replace King with similar status player" crap, not to mention the "promotion within 2 years, possibly one". Only one of those can possibly come true, and I'm not holding my breath based on 1 win in 7! Of course we know now that he had absolutely no idea what the hell he was talking about, but many fans may have got excited about a team kicking-on under AT with that sort of reasonable backing from the board..they will have sold season tickets on the back of that sort of guff. Cue someone telling me what a great job he must be doing, then...

shmmeee · Sep 14, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
There are loads of examples, probably 30+ demonstrable, proven lies. I've spent most of the summer moaning about them on here so forgive me if I don't reel them out one more time!

But from one Brody interview alone, there was the "franchise player" and "replace King with similar status player" crap, not to mention the "promotion within 2 years, possibly one". Only one of those can possibly come true, and I'm not holding my breath based on 1 win in 7! Of course we know now that he had absolutely no idea what the hell he was talking about, but many fans may have got excited about a team kicking-on under AT with that sort of reasonable backing from the board..they will have sold season tickets on the back of that sort of guff. Cue someone telling me what a great job he must be doing, then...

Brody doesn't work for Sisu though.

The demise of our club : Is our anger misdirected? (2 Viewers)

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