The Academy - an alternative perspective (1 Viewer)

Orca

Well-Known Member
I've been in the company of a board member of a Championship club this week and, over a beer or two, we discussed ownership, academies and the state of CCFC.

It was clear that he was aware of the difficulties of our club, but he wasn't fully aware of the perilous state of our Academy. His perspective on Academies surprised me somewhat and I thought I'd share it.

They're an ambitious club and have been in the Premier League more recently than us, but their Academy is also Cat 2 so they spend a similar amount of money to us in maintaining it. His view was that although it is a worthy and good thing to do for the local community, from a business perspective it doesn't really pass the test of being a good investment.

Although it's fair to say they've not had a breakthrough academy star that they've sold on for millions to another club, they've lost several Academy scholars for 'peanuts', much in the same way we've lost Bassala Sambou to Everton.

His point was that if you get one good saleable player a year, it might be worth it, but for the players he talked about that they had lost to other clubs before they'd even played for the 1st team, the compensation didn't cover the outlay for each year they had been at their academy.

Given this, I left myself questioning whether, given all that has gone before, an investment of £600k p.a. might be considered too much of a gamble by our owners?

It's clear that the 'financial basket case' of CCFC might not still exist without the income we received from our transfer dealings. However, as we're owned by a company who gambles with money for a living, could they consider a downgrade or closure of the academy as a purely business decision? Over the life of our Academy, have we recouped enough to cover our investment? I think the answer to this is Yes, but there's no guarantee it will continue. If we banked some of the £600k a year and invested it the playing staff, would we stand a better chance of promotion, thus earning more?

If I were to speculate on whether or not this might be being considered by our board, I'd suggest that if the Academy were forced to close or downgrade because of some other party, it would be an easy 'Get Out Of Jail Free Card' to cease this investment.

Maybe my bias against the current ownership has made me cynical to their true motives, but I've not got any figures to go on as to whether the Academy is a good financial investment or not - but these are the only terms in which SISU will view it. They won't care about the community benefits or the greater good, has it actually made any real money?

I'd love for someone to do an analysis of the transfer fees received versus our outlay on running a Cat 2 Academy - is it worth it from a business perspective? My acquaintance from the Championship thinks not in the case for his club. What about for us?
 

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Brylowes

Well-Known Member
I've been in the company of a board member of a Championship club this week and, over a beer or two, we discussed ownership, academies and the state of CCFC.

It was clear that he was aware of the difficulties of our club, but he wasn't fully aware of the perilous state of our Academy. His perspective on Academies surprised me somewhat and I thought I'd share it.

They're an ambitious club and have been in the Premier League more recently than us, but their Academy is also Cat 2 so they spend a similar amount of money to us in maintaining it. His view was that although it is a worthy and good thing to do for the local community, from a business perspective it doesn't really pass the test of being a good investment.

Although it's fair to say they've not had a breakthrough academy star that they've sold on for millions to another club, they've lost several Academy scholars for 'peanuts', much in the same way we've lost Bassala Sambou to Everton.

His point was that if you get one good saleable player a year, it might be worth it, but for the players he talked about that they had lost to other clubs before they'd even played for the 1st team, the compensation didn't cover the outlay for each year they had been at their academy.

Given this, I left myself questioning whether, given all that has gone before, an investment of £600k p.a. might be considered too much of a gamble by our owners?

It's clear that the 'financial basket case' of CCFC might not still exist without the income we received from our transfer dealings. However, as we're owned by a company who gambles with money for a living, could they consider a downgrade or closure of the academy as a purely business decision? Over the life of our Academy, have we recouped enough to cover our investment? I think the answer to this is Yes, but there's no guarantee it will continue. If we banked some of the £600k a year and invested it the playing staff, would we stand a better chance of promotion, thus earning more?

If I were to speculate on whether or not this might be being considered by our board, I'd suggest that if the Academy were forced to close or downgrade because of some other party, it would be an easy 'Get Out Of Jail Free Card' to cease this investment.

Maybe my bias against the current ownership has made me cynical to their true motives, but I've not got any figures to go on as to whether the Academy is a good financial investment or not - but these are the only terms in which SISU will view it. They won't care about the community benefits or the greater good, has it actually made any real money?

I'd love for someone to do an analysis of the transfer fees received versus our outlay on running a Cat 2 Academy - is it worth it from a business perspective? My acquaintance from the Championship thinks not in the case of his club. What about for us?
I've been saying it for weeks (rightly or wrongly) they no longer want to fund the acadamy
The fact other parties want us out has played right into there hands.
You are involved on the threads I've been saying it on .
 

skyblue025

Well-Known Member
Well if you look over the past 3-4 season our academy has bought us in around 6 million (Wilson, Christie, Maddison) so for SISU/Otium/whoever it has more than doubled the outlay. Probably the part of the club doing the best business.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
I've been in the company of a board member of a Championship club this week and, over a beer or two, we discussed ownership, academies and the state of CCFC.

Surely you mean the RFU Championship don't you?
 

Orca

Well-Known Member
Well you are a Wasps plant are you not? ;)

Not. Now you could go and read any of my posts and check or you could just go back to the Favourite Smells thread and add your insight there instead.


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stupot07

Well-Known Member
Well if you look over the past 3-4 season our academy has bought us in around 6 million (Wilson, Christie, Maddison) so for SISU/Otium/whoever it has more than doubled the outlay. Probably the part of the club doing the best business.
Yes, and not to mention the savings on wages, etc that filling out the first team squad with academy graduates. Even last year, we had 9-10+ graduates that featured in the first team.

Our academy pays for itself, they would be stupid to get rid of it.

I can see why a championship club that has had no breakthroughs might not rate theirs, but for a club that has little funds but does produce a steady stream of players good enough to play first team football and the odd one that goes on for a decent fee it is essential.

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Otis

Well-Known Member
Not. Now you could go and read any of my posts and check or you could just go back to the Favourite Smells thread and add your insight there instead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why, is your favourite smell wasp?

I've only been pulling your leg. Perception on here by some that you are a Wasps plant. :)
 

Orca

Well-Known Member
Why, is your favourite smell wasp?

I've only been pulling your leg. Perception on here by some that you are a Wasps plant. :)

Yes and having swatted them away, they've now gone quiet.




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SkyBlueScottie

Well-Known Member
I always thought that the main reason for being a Cat 2 Academy was more about receiving the funding grant. Also guaranteeing a higher fee for any players taken away by other clubs. "Getting rid" of the Academy IMO is not necessarily a bad thing and it of course does not mean we will have no youth set up. Perhaps the sums have been done, and it's worked out cheaper to close the Academy and run a youth set up using our own guidelines, based on the principles of a Cat 1 or 2 Academy. I'm guessing if you are not part of the EPPP then you can effectively spread your scouting network the length and breadth of the country?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Yes, and not to mention the savings on wages, etc that filling out the first team squad with academy graduates. Even last year, we had 9-10+ graduates that featured in the first team.

Our academy pays for itself, they would be stupid to get rid of it.

I can see why a championship club that has had no breakthroughs might not rate theirs, but for a club that has little funds but does produce a steady stream of players good enough to play first team football and the odd one that goes on for a decent fee it is essential.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
I'm not sure how much credence I'd give to a chairman of a championship club, considering that generally they're all living beyond their means.
 

ccfcway

Well-Known Member
personal opinion, as a fan, I have seen or heard nothing to suggest that CCFC are prepared to battle to save the academy.

The odd sound bite here and there to say "we have asked then for details" simply does not cut it for me.
 

Orca

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how much credence I'd give to a chairman of a championship club, considering that generally they're all living beyond their means.
Yes, he did admit that the operation of his club is a money pit and the owner isn't investing to make money. His opinion on these matters is probably more informed than most people on here, hence me posting it.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Always have been and remain very much for an Academy, but some thoughts.....

The new academy system (cat 2) started in 2013 didn't it............ when did Wilson and Christie graduate from the Academy? before this new system was in place I think. What was the funding under the old system? How much did the club spend under the old system? If we produced good players without Cat 2 (Wilson & Christie etc) before, could we still do it now?

I know people focus on the club spend is £600k but the academy spend is supposed to be 1.1m isn't it (ie club 600k plus the grant £500K). But perhaps there is the importance to the club - the grant funds other operations within the clubs financial set up? Do the club spend 1.1m + on the academy? If they do is that value for money? The stats say the average spend of cat 2 academies is between 600k and 1.8m I believe, is that gross or net spend? If we are one of the lower spenders yet one of the best does the system actually work? Would be interesting to get a CCFC breakdown of costs and how the grant is disclosed in the financials. Cant help thinking that the club has been very much about cutting costs and short term planning in recent years, the academy is a significant cost

The real value of any player, academy or not, comes out or increases/decreases based on first team appearances. So the value that the academy produces is the value when a player graduates not the eventual sales value it could be argued. Could the club spend the academy money in another way to achieve value later - say like they have with Jodi Jones? Maddison went for an apparent large sum because he was first team player the other lad went to Everton for a compensation fee because he had not made the first team. Is the sales return dependent on the Academy or getting lucky with who we can attract? What attracts a young player to us, the Academy, the wages, the better chance of making the first team?

Could the club operate a youth set up outside of the EPPP - yes, they lose the Cat 2 grant but could they save on wages, overheads and administration, could they streamline the youth training in to less teams, could they make better use of the assets they have? Do the financials make better sense doing that?

With the new rules on compensation not sales value for Academy players does that affect the future profits a Cat 2 Academy can produce - and if so is it still viable?

Management decision. You see I think our academy youngsters got first team experience last season out of necessity not choice, often there was no one else. Our manager it could be argued likes to bring in players rather than promote - is that because the talent isn't quite good enough? Given we have such an apparently good Academy why does it not translate in to first team success?

A lot of questions I know but this is not a straight forward clear cut calculation. I think we need to know the drivers behind any decision to be made. Why is the Academy important to the club decision makers? or why is it not?

To be honest it seems the Academy is more important to the fans than anyone else - but even that support is pretty luke warm judging by the petition response. I suspect a year from now we will have no cat 2 academy, it will be interesting to see how player development/sales and the financials of the club turn out going forward from that.

Like I said I am pro retaining our Academy but we shouldn't be blind to the questions raised by the current situation
 
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Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
I seem to remember there was an old set of CCFC board meeting minutes (from the days when Joe Elliot was a Director) put online, they resolved to close the academy then, though the decision was later reversed.

Call me an old cynic but doesn't the ramping up of the scouting system seem as though it might be linked to the scaling down of the academy operation.

The integrated Academy/First Team was a plan proposed by Fisher at the time he came on board (used to be web site linked to Fishers consultancy describing this but that got removed), that's why Elvis was brought in as (I believe) it was thought he was effective at integrating players from the Academy into the first team, but it did not work did it.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Cant help thinking that the club has been very much about cutting costs and short term planning in recent years, the academy is a significant cost
Yup, that’s what SISU do.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
The academy has been generating a profit over the past few years. It's the only profit element of the business IMO.

Has it? I do not think you have the figures to judge that accurately, all recent transfer activity has been 'undisclosed'.

There is also a significant risk factor, what if you have a few years when you do not produce a saleable player, then it is simply a drain that badly effects cash flow.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
CA seems more interested in playing the victim than fighting for the academy whether that be at Higgs or elsewhere.

It's been left to the fans to make the noise and as we've seen from the petition the fight has collectively gone from the fans.

If the academy was a worthwhile investment for the owners we'd have a plan B by now. Something like a partnership with the UOW or a local school. Of course that would mean dipping their hands in their pockets and contributing towards the facilities.
 

Brylowes

Well-Known Member
CA seems more interested in playing the victim than fighting for the academy whether that be at Higgs or elsewhere.

It's been left to the fans to make the noise and as we've seen from the petition the fight has collectively gone from the fans.

If the academy was a worthwhile investment for the owners we'd have a plan B by now. Something like a partnership with the UOW or a local school. Of course that would mean dipping their hands in their pockets and contributing towards the facilities.
The fight isn't their from the fans, because it isn't their from the club, I'm convinced
they don't want it.
 

ccfcway

Well-Known Member
The fight isn't their from the fans, because it isn't their from the club, I'm convinced
they don't want it.

Couldn't agree more.

If I was the club I would be flat out campaigning for fans to join in the fight....

Top of my head

1) The offal would have a template letter I would be encouraging fans to personalise and email to their MP,
2) I would produce 10,000 A4 cards, which we could all hold up at the start of the 1st game, which could be sky blue on one side to show our support of the team, and then 133 seconds into the game (to commemorate 1883) we turn the cards over to say "save our academy"
3) I would invite players from the past who came through the academy to sign autographs before the game etc
4) have a game for the most talented local kids at half time to show academy kids of the future
5) encourage current players who came from the academy to make a short video which could be shown on the big screen

etc etc
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
There does seem a lack of urgency in safe guarding the Academy. Yes the club need the co operation of others like CSF but the prime guardian of its Academy has to be the club itself. So what is it they are doing, how can we support the efforts they lead with, what are the alternatives. CCFC and CA in particular have to lead on this not play victim even if the club is one.

There has over the last 18 months been a root and branch review of costs at CCFC and it is inconceivable that the Academy finances and benefit has not been reviewed. The club should not have been surprised by the alternative uses proposed at the Alan Higgs centre. The swimming pool idea was first raised in July 2013 and several times since, Wasps are single minded in their financial plan, the Higgs Centre is a prime site and I can remember the idea of Wasps moving there being raised many months ago (early 2015). At the very least the club should have been on its guard, Yes CCFC then signed a user agreement at the site in 2013 that basically gave them the first right to book 3 months in advance the facilities that were available for 4 years - but did it give them first call on renewal of the agreement, it seems not

CA said when he came to the club that he was reviewing all the various contracts and arrangements so he understood them, the user agreement defined the termination date clearly . Development plans are very rarely secret something always gets out. How was the 2017 termination of the user agreement (it was not a lease) missed in the review, where were the alarm bells, the pre-emptive action, the plan ? Then there were the papers filed at Companies House mid March by the AEHC that actually detailed what was proposed. From what I can make out the club then in mid/late April told CSF it wanted to stay. It might seem harsh but ignorance until April does not sit well with a directors duty to safeguard the assets of a company (assuming the Academy is an asset)

Of late it seems every obstacle that can be thought of is put in the way not to meet. Some see it as CSF/Wasps duty to supply CCFC with the solution, to meet apparently strict rules for Cat 2 facilities its a view point that to my mind encourages inertia. I would guess CSF already knew the facility requirements having been involved previously and being able to download from the internet so didn't need a CA email to point it all out. Those rules can be flexible to some degree - it even says so in the facilities section, but equally the club retained its status in 2013 despite having moved out using Ryton and other sites to continue, perhaps because discussions were taking place it was acceptable to FA/FL, certainly it would have required approval. Also the site is a community site with an Academy and that is not in strict compliance with the rules in the first place, there is no lease only a user agreement so the club had no rights over the property, the Academy shares the facilities, but it got approved all the same. The FA/FL Board I would think had to be persuaded by club and site/CSF that what was available allowed the provision of a top class Cat 2 Academy - it seems that it was and the Academy is.

This will not be solved by emails or people saying I wont because I don't trust you or by repeatedly missing meetings. It will involve CSF/Wasps saying what is available but it also needs CCFC to say what they are bringing to the table. It will require commitment on all sides and partnership on a long term basis. It will not be solved by allowing any side the room to make excuses. It needs meetings face to face with open minds. People need to make time, they need to meet, they need to butt heads if necessary, compromise if required..That is if it is really that important.

Its isn't any good saying on here well they cant give us this or that or the rules do not allow it. Apparently CA doesn't know what is available so how do we? The rules have already moved to accommodate our current set up so would seem not to be so hard and fast.

If CA (and posters here) are so certain that it cant be done, that Wasps & CSF cant be trusted - what is Plan B what is the future because it isn't the Higgs Centre and therefore no point continuing with emails or discussions. What can be done, what is the alternative, or is the best way forward closure? If current set up wont work or is not acceptable we need to plan forward now

Do I think CSF etc have been less than transparent - yes. I think it would have been sensible and right to inform CCFC as early as possible that the facilities were going to change. It would be right and proper to do that even if it was not a lease. It would have right to do so if only one of the proposals was to be implemented. I am surprised that the parties involved have not received a legal challenge to what they propose that seems to be the usual way of things deemed important. It would have been sensible to work together to prosper the Academy. Our Academy is something to be proud of no matter who the owners of CCFC are. The clubs public rhetoric is really just a bargaining position, but you can cry wolf too often, but not something to hide behind. Be prepared to prove the excuse if you use it

You can choose to read that as waving a stick at the club that's up to you.....but the reality is they are reasonable questions and thoughts. It is up to the club to run its business and to deal with any circumstances presented, to solve the problems for the best benefit of the company, to act to safeguard its existence in whole or parts. That may or may not involve third parties who are crucial to decisions but do not have the same duty of care towards CCFC. Sorry as so often in what is going on I see no real partnerships only excuses given why not and inertia.

The above does make me wonder how much the Academy is wanted by the parties involved not least the club. You might well see it differently of course but look at the whole thing don't pick on little phrases or certain words ....... does it not make you question too ???
 
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skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
The fight isn't their from the fans, because it isn't their from the club, I'm convinced
they don't want it.

Is there even a link to the petition on the clubs official site? Can't say I've noticed. Follow the club on facebook, can't say I've noticed them mention it on there either. Although to be fair I rarely go on facebook. Don't subscribe to Twitter so couldn't comment on whether they mention it on there or not but you'd think that they'd be tweeting it on a daily basis. Are they?
 
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Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more.

If I was the club I would be flat out campaigning for fans to join in the fight....

Top of my head

1) The offal would have a template letter I would be encouraging fans to personalise and email to their MP,
2) I would produce 10,000 A4 cards, which we could all hold up at the start of the 1st game, which could be sky blue on one side to show our support of the team, and then 133 seconds into the game (to commemorate 1883) we turn the cards over to say "save our academy"
3) I would invite players from the past who came through the academy to sign autographs before the game etc
4) have a game for the most talented local kids at half time to show academy kids of the future
5) encourage current players who came from the academy to make a short video which could be shown on the big screen

etc etc

You want initiatives, no chance Jimmy Hill isn't in charge any more its SISU.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Has it? I do not think you have the figures to judge that accurately, all recent transfer activity has been 'undisclosed'.

There is also a significant risk factor, what if you have a few years when you do not produce a saleable player, then it is simply a drain that badly effects cash flow.
Yes, it's not just the investment in running the academy, it's the professional contract the player signs. For every Wilson there is at least one player who's been on the books years but goes for nothing (Phillips, C Thomas, Daniel's, Osbourne etc)
 

shelby76

Well-Known Member
our academy does what it says on the tin,develops players for first team, a lot of clubs in cat 2 especially cat 1 don't do this, keep the academy or lose the club. we are punching above our weight, other clubs that play our academy sides alway know there in for a game and take there hats off to us for our style of play.
 

Colin Steins Smile

Well-Known Member
Yes, it's not just the investment in running the academy, it's the professional contract the player signs. For every Wilson there is at least one player who's been on the books years but goes for nothing (Phillips, C Thomas, Daniel's, Osbourne etc)
In one sense you are correct, but in playing those academy products there is a case to say that we saved money, in terms of signing on fees, etc for the players that we would have had to recruit as replacements for no academy products.
 

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