Thanks Doncaster (1 Viewer)

aviles

Well-Known Member
Doncaster issue publicity article

Coventry City have written to Doncaster Rovers to thank them for their support, according to an article on the Doncaster Rovers club website.

City contacted Rovers who had experience over negotiating the rent for the Keepmoat Stadium and thanked them for their help in their negotiations with Arena Coventry Limited which again have stalled.
An ACL Spokesman said in a statement on New Years Eve: "There has been further correspondence between ACL and SISU, the Mayfair based Hedge Fund which owns Coventry City FC during the Christmas period, but no agreement has yet been reached.

"The Board of ACL has been trying to resolve this matter but is considering its legal options and will meet to discuss the issue in the near future. The Board meeting has yet to be scheduled at this time."

Coventry City FC love a drama. Would make great TV
 

comeonrovers

New Member
Doncaster Fan in peace, I am glad John Ryan has given city some advice in regards to your situation. You shouldn't have to go into administration because the council decide they want to fleece you.

Anyway alot of Donny fans are worried about you lot this season. My Tip for Playoff winners, maybe Top 2!

Best of luck for the rest of the season, Apart from when you play us of course :)
 
If SISU spent less time talking to Donny and more speaking to ACL this would be resolved by now.

Its like me not wanting to pay my mortgage and ringing Sky about it.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
If SISU spent less time talking to Donny and more speaking to ACL this would be resolved by now.

Its like me not wanting to pay my mortgage and ringing Sky about it.

They should be speaking to them and its about time our supporters realised how ripped off we are.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Doncaster Fan in peace, I am glad John Ryan has given city some advice in regards to your situation. You shouldn't have to go into administration because the council decide they want to fleece you.

Anyway alot of Donny fans are worried about you lot this season. My Tip for Playoff winners, maybe Top 2!

Best of luck for the rest of the season, Apart from when you play us of course :)

Waste of time. Most people on here are ACL and council supporters. They think we should be fleeced and go into administration.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Doncaster Fan in peace, I am glad John Ryan has given city some advice in regards to your situation. You shouldn't have to go into administration because the council decide they want to fleece you.

Anyway alot of Donny fans are worried about you lot this season. My Tip for Playoff winners, maybe Top 2!

Best of luck for the rest of the season, Apart from when you play us of course :)

Glad to hear an outsider's perspective, after all, your club was once ripped off like ours and Donny have won their struggle, it's time for CCFC to win theirs! You, and your club have shown how anti-SISU our fans are to defend ACL on this issue.

I'm being painted as a pro SISU person because I put my club first.

Hopefully CCFC come top 2, who knows, maybe Donny and CCFC might get top 2.

What did you think of us when we came up to the Keepmoat?
 

Chinny_Hill

New Member
Glad to hear an outsider's perspective, after all, your club was once ripped off like ours and Donny have won their struggle, it's time for CCFC to win theirs! You, and your club have shown how anti-SISU our fans are to defend ACL on this issue.

I'm being painted as a pro SISU person because I put my club first.

Hopefully CCFC come top 2, who knows, maybe Donny and CCFC might get top 2.

What did you think of us when we came up to the Keepmoat?

This really would be cringeworthy, if it wasn't so paper thin. You really should know better.
 

Chinny_Hill

New Member
They should be speaking to them and its about time our supporters realised how ripped off we are.

Interesting how you use the term "our supporters" almost as though you are not one, and are perhaps looking at this from shall we say a different perspective....:claping hands:surely you would say "its about time we realised how ripped off we are" :facepalm: or is that nonsense too?
 

Tonylinc

Well-Known Member
Grendel........If, as you say, CCFC are being ripped off by Acl can you please tell me why Sisu did not address the issue when carrying out their due diligence?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Interesting how you use the term "our supporters" almost as though you are not one, and are perhaps looking at this from shall we say a different perspective....:claping hands:surely you would say "its about time we realised how ripped off we are" :facepalm: or is that nonsense too?

Yes it's such nonsense it makes no sense at all.
 

Chinny_Hill

New Member
If I had just arrived from the moon there would be a chance I'd listen to your opinion. Seen as I haven't, and have seen the whole sorry saga of "our" club over a few decades, I have lived it real time and dont need you or anyone else to paint a picture for me. And for that reason....I'm out:D
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Grendel........If, as you say, CCFC are being ripped off by Acl can you please tell me why Sisu did not address the issue when carrying out their due diligence?

Considering up to a fortnight before takeover Southampton were the preferred choice then it is safe to say that they carried out very little investigative work. This is generally acknowledged.

It may have been sloppy but that is then and this is now so I fail to see what the issue is with now facing up to financial adjustments.

One thing is certain. The present arrangement will not ever again be agreed by sisu or anyone else so either we close down or commercial reality at ACL kicks in.

They've had our trousers down for a decade so now it's time to stop.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
If I had just arrived from the moon there would be a chance I'd listen to your opinion. Seen as I haven't, and have seen the whole sorry saga of "our" club over a few decades, I have lived it real time and dont need you or anyone else to paint a picture for me. And for that reason....I'm out:D

Are you sure? You sound in another planet to me.
 

SkyBlue_Bear83

Well-Known Member
Grendel........If, as you say, CCFC are being ripped off by Acl can you please tell me why Sisu did not address the issue when carrying out their due diligence?
They should have, just because they didn't then means you don't want them to now?

Why do people want to see club continually suffer because of SISUs mistake of not addressing the issue earlier?
 

Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
We must be the only club in the country where a large number of fans are against the club. Even outsiders off their perspective and agree we are being ripped off.

Those who are now the most anti-sisu were also the most pro-sisu when they were around. Anyone who dared question them was branded a traitor.
 

deanocity3

New Member
Doncaster issue publicity article

Coventry City have written to Doncaster Rovers to thank them for their support, according to an article on the Doncaster Rovers club website.

City contacted Rovers who had experience over negotiating the rent for the Keepmoat Stadium and thanked them for their help in their negotiations with Arena Coventry Limited which again have stalled.
An ACL Spokesman said in a statement on New Years Eve: "There has been further correspondence between ACL and SISU, the Mayfair based Hedge Fund which owns Coventry City FC during the Christmas period, but no agreement has yet been reached.

"The Board of ACL has been trying to resolve this matter but is considering its legal options and will meet to discuss the issue in the near future. The Board meeting has yet to be scheduled at this time."

Coventry City FC love a drama. Would make great TV
It was made into a drama when the Ricoh was about to open.It Starred Ray Winstone and was film here ' all in the game'
 

Tonylinc

Well-Known Member
They should have, just because they didn't then means you don't want them to now?

Why do people want to see club continually suffer because of SISUs mistake of not addressing the issue earlier?
I have absolutely no problem with them now taking up an issue which they should have done some considerable time ago BUT I do have issues with the way which they are now dealing with it. To starve a charity of income is unforgivable. I have said this before and make no apologies for repeating it; they have to decide what is the correct rent AND PAY IT, in the interim. In this way a court will accept their case much more sympathetically. Oh wait......what am I doing......giving legal advise to a bunch of shysters!
 

Tonylinc

Well-Known Member
I have absolutely no problem with them now taking up an issue which they should have done some considerable time ago BUT I do have issues with the way which they are now dealing with it. To starve a charity of income is unforgivable. I have said this before and make no apologies for repeating it; they have to decide what is the correct rent AND PAY IT, in the interim. In this way a court will accept their case much more sympathetically. Oh wait......what am I doing......giving legal advise to a bunch of shysters!
And for which they have not paid. I usually demand my up front!
 

valiant15

New Member
Why weren't you all bleating about the rent last season or the season before? Is it because your idol tim has made an issue of ir now after the garbage hedge fund he works for relegated us?
 

CJparker

New Member
Doncaster Fan in peace, I am glad John Ryan has given city some advice in regards to your situation. You shouldn't have to go into administration because the council decide they want to fleece you.

Anyway alot of Donny fans are worried about you lot this season. My Tip for Playoff winners, maybe Top 2!

Best of luck for the rest of the season, Apart from when you play us of course :)

It's actually the club's owners that are fleecing the council, but hey ho....as long as CCFC benefits then who cares who else suffers hey? After all, being a CCFC supporter apparently requires one to support the club in all circumstances, even when it behaves totally immorally.
 

CJparker

New Member
I'm being painted as a pro SISU person because I put my club first.

Nobody should be expected to put their first club ahead the bigger issues of right v wrong. ACL have done nothing wrong. It's SISU/CCFC who are clearly in breach of contract, as the court correctly decided.

In my mind, SISU's actions have bordered on the criminal, and yet people defend them. I'm just glad that lots of fans agree that our club shouldn't be supported in trampling over its past benefactors.
 

blueflint

Well-Known Member
They should be speaking to them and its about time our supporters realised how ripped off we are.

what shite we as ccfc owe rent renegotiate by all means but pay what u owe as well i pay my bills why cant city or sisu if u want
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
I think I am one of the many who I consider to possess a balanced view.

1. Yes, we are being fleeced, though perhaps 'fleeced' isn't the correct terminology. The rent is simply too high and we cannot afford to pay it.

I do think though that ACL must be scratching their heads. We have been there for 7 and half years now and the rent has surely always been too high. This all should have been addressed a long, long time ago.

Last Christmas many of us were saying we were certainties for relegation and though not sorted before this should have been addressed then. The club must have known what was coming. Plans should have been put in place. Negotiations should have taken place.

2. We should pay something now towards the arrears. We owe the money and there is no getting away from that. i, like many others believe that all the club have to do here is to pay what they consider to be a decent amount while continuing to negotiate! This would show some goodwill and enable negotiations to continue.

We are not negotiating at the moment, it is is just a stand-off and a gamble on the club's very future.

I am not pro Sisu or pro ACL. I just want to see fairness and the best result for all parties concerned.

I still can't get my head around the fact though that we've been here in the Ricoh for nearly 8 years and only now this is being discussed and only now is the talk of the rent being too high.

Bottom line is it has always been too high.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Looking at it from a SISU perspective, and assuming this is about the rent (i dont actually believe that but put that aside for now)

its pretty basic stuff when buying a business to look at its costs and seek to reduce them to maximise an early return, to improve cash flow. The rent argument should have happened literally years ago, so too a review of the rates. Those basics are even more important when buying in to a distressed business. This is what SISU deal in afterall.

Ok it didnt happen but it is now. suppose we assume this is actually about the rent. First thing I would have addressed was the £500k deposit against default. It is money already laid out so doesn't require further cash flow. So get rid of the requirement and there is £500k to spend on rent or other costs. Get the rent negotiated down to the £400k offered now and back in june you could have been in the position where the rent in financial year to May 2013 was paid (you could say that the only reason it is offered at £400k now is because of the action taken - you may be right but maybe not we do not know). Instead we are now at the same rent, with a legal debt now over £1.4m and the millstone continues to grow. Not to mention that most leases build in interest on late payment.

That scenario would have left a cashflow boost to ccfc of £500k and ACL in a situation they can live with going forward. There would be a working relationship between CCFC and ACL, trust maintained and a better prospect of getting more for all concerned at the club and stadium. Perhaps it could never happen but as Paxman says more than one way to skin a cat and this is just a for instance

Perhaps ACL didnt want to negotiate, perhaps SISU did their own thing before starting any negotiation or had no intention of negotiation.... we dont know for sure one way or another

It did not have to go the way it has though....... the path was chosen this way by the parties involved - you choose who led the way

oh and just so my stalker fan realises i am not being pro or anti SISU or anyone else ....... just looking at different angles and expressing an opinion or ideas

*edit* the cashflow boost to ccfc in 2012/13 would have been the reduction of old rent £800k plus the £500k deposit utilised and a saving on rent of £800k pa going forward
 
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CJparker

New Member
I think I am one of the many who I consider to possess a balanced view.

1. Yes, we are being fleeced, though perhaps 'fleeced' isn't the correct terminology. The rent is simply too high and we cannot afford to pay it.

I do think though that ACL must be scratching their heads. We have been there for 7 and half years now and the rent has surely always been too high. This all should have been addressed a long, long time ago.

Last Christmas many of us were saying we were certainties for relegation and though not sorted before this should have been addressed then. The club must have known what was coming. Plans should have been put in place. Negotiations should have taken place.

2. We should pay something now towards the arrears. We owe the money and there is no getting away from that. i, like many others believe that all the club have to do here is to pay what they consider to be a decent amount while continuing to negotiate! This would show some goodwill and enable negotiations to continue.

We are not negotiating at the moment, it is is just a stand-off and a gamble on the club's very future.

I am not pro Sisu or pro ACL. I just want to see fairness and the best result for all parties concerned.

I still can't get my head around the fact though that we've been here in the Ricoh for nearly 8 years and only now this is being discussed and only now is the talk of the rent being too high.

Bottom line is it has always been too high.

Otis, it's too high because we're in League One....which is clearly SISU's fault, not ACL's. Why should ACL take a huge revenue hit just because we "can't afford the rent"??
Of course we can afford it, SISU just need to dip into their pockets.

We aren't being fleeced - people seem to conveniently forget the millions that the council poured in, to ensure that we had a home stadium. Now, either the council and its' taxpayers is obliged to give us a free gift of a stadium, or £1.2m a year is a reasonable rent for them to recover their unforseen outlay.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
It's actually the club's owners that are fleecing the council, but hey ho....as long as CCFC benefits then who cares who else suffers hey? After all, being a CCFC supporter apparently requires one to support the club in all circumstances, even when it behaves totally immorally.

Mutton doesn't care. He was more interested in stuffing himself with a rather large box of mince pies on Saturday than watch the game.

Fisher should promise him lifetime supply from Kiplings. Should do the trick.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Nobody should be expected to put their first club ahead the bigger issues of right v wrong. ACL have done nothing wrong. It's SISU/CCFC who are clearly in breach of contract, as the court correctly decided.

In my mind, SISU's actions have bordered on the criminal, and yet people defend them. I'm just glad that lots of fans agree that our club shouldn't be supported in trampling over its past benefactors.

Didn't ACL commit the 'first evil' by charging above market value? Fight fire with fire.

Funny how it's only our own fans who support ACL :thinking about:

On another post who made...

How the fuck do CCFC fleece ACL!?
 

Sky Blues

Active Member
Didn't ACL commit the 'first evil' by charging above market value?

Market value? The market rate requires a market, with buyers and sellers. Simplified, the amount of supply from the sellers and the amount of demand from the buyers determines the price. The City of Coventry has effectively one seller of football stadiums capable of taking 10,000+ Sky Blues fans. It also has one purchaser of stadiums demanding to accommodate 10,000 fans (most games). Both the buyer and seller may or may not have other options, but they're probably tenuous (playing at Leicester etc / Monster trucks etc) and they should be far better off with each other. So there is little in the way of a market per se.

Therefore, if this is truly about the rent, and not distressing ACL, then a compromise will only be reached if the two sides can find a level which suits both sides. Sisu have suggested they will only pay this so-called "League 1 average rent" (or somewhere between £150,000 and £200,000 if I recall correctly). And from ACL's side, how much do they need from Sisu to make City's tenancy worthwhile? I don't know.

But this might help. Here's a few details from Doncaster's council relating to Rovers much hyped so-called £10,000 rent of their 15,000-seater stadium.

1. There was no residual debt for building the stadium (i.e. no £21m loan to pay off like Coventry).
2. The stadium was intended to make a surplus of about £300,000 a year which would go towards major items of expenditure such as relaying the pitch etc. At some stadiums this would be considered a budgetary item (such as a sinking fund) that a management company would account for (e.g. In Swansea £200,000 a year is put aside for the Liberty, if I recall correctly).
3. But Doncaster's stadium management company was actually losing money (a £2.1m loss was estimated for the period between the stadium opening and March 2012) and annual losses were projected to be about £350,000 a year - despite cost cutting.
4. The council's financial analysis showed none of the clubs using the ground were "paying anything like the true cost of their usage."
5. At the time, Rovers paid £281,000 per year for 25 days use per year + cup games, after ending an earlier temporary deal to pay over £700,000 more per year (I.e. about £1m per annum) in return for perimeter advertising (worth about £500,000) and match day car park income.
6. Rovers and the council were only 6 years into a 25-year lease agreement, which limited the council's room for manoeuvre.

So the council proposed a new, longer lease that would pass management of the stadium over to Rovers.
As part of this the council:
1. Were independently advised Rovers should be paying between £450,000 and £600,000 per year for such an arrangement (+ £75,000 per annum for an attached soccer centre).
2. Were told this was considerably more than Rovers would pay.
3. Had to consider the losses being incurred by the stadium management company that the council wholly owned.
4. Noted that "Rovers at present pay nothing to the council" because the £281,000 was swallowed up by stadium running costs.

So under the new deal Rovers:
1. Take on the stadium running costs (that were clearly in excess of the £281,000 per annum they were paying).
2. Cover the existing losses (an estimated £350,000 per year).
3. Pay the council £100,000 per year, a sum which would increase with inflation. This would effectively be reduced to £10,000 for the first 9 years because of 9 years worth of naming rights money for stadium upkeep that would be passed on to Rovers.

In summary, Rovers had the council over a barrel by refusing to pay a sum that would cover running costs. The council, keen to insulate itself from these loses, cut the club a favourable deal to take it off their hands.

Nevertheless, while partially offset by gaining access to new income sources and redundancy savings, adding together the known outgoings, this £32m, 15,000-seater stadium could effectively be costing the club more than £700,000 a year plus whatever they have to set aside for major repairs (which the originally projected £300,000 surplus was supposed to cover).

It's hardly a cheap deal costing the club just £10,000 a year.

So what will it cost to run a 32,000-seater stadium with a loan against it which has somewhere in the region of £15m left to pay off?

And if, for argument's sake, a rental deal can't be reached, ACL go bust and Sisu buy the stadium on the cheap, how much will that cost the club to run? Anyone want to bet it'll be under £400,000 a year?

And if Sisu can't afford or don't want to buy it, you might like to know that another option the council mentioned for Doncaster's nearly new stadium was: Selling it for redevelopment.

The 19-year rental agreement put pay to that in Doncaster, but as Sisu have not paid the Ricoh rent you have to wonder how much security (if any) their contract provides if a bank is looking to recoup its loan...
 
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
If it hosts other events who makes all the revenue and profit from that?
 

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