Take the knee (1 Viewer)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Dec 9, 2020

Otis said:
But what about the clear statement brought out by the players to say THEIR taking of the knee was ONLY as an anti-discrimination gesture and nothing else?

Doesn't stack up.

Taking the knee is associated with BLM. BLM is associated with a whole other world of stuff. If we give the Millwall fans the benefit of the doubt and presume they can read, and did read the statement, there is still an ugly association where the gesture is tarred.

My whole point was that you cannot just call everyone who doesn't conform to something in this circumstance a racist. It doesn't help to combat racism either, only seemingly making tensions worse. Last night they dropped the whole BLM associated act and the supporters got behind it.

As I have said previously, I have no time for Millwall or their fans. I suspect there are some there that would have been booing initially because they were racist. The fact that this gesture last night was applauded says to me that there is a problem with the origin of the message, rather than them all booing because they hate black people though.

shmmeee · Dec 9, 2020

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Taking the knee is associated with BLM. BLM is associated with a whole other world of stuff. If we give the Millwall fans the benefit of the doubt and presume they can read, and did read the statement, there is still an ugly association where the gesture is tarred.

My whole point was that you cannot just call everyone who doesn't conform to something in this circumstance a racist. It doesn't help to combat racism either, only seemingly making tensions worse. Last night they dropped the whole BLM associated act and the supporters got behind it.

As I have said previously, I have no time for Millwall or their fans. I suspect there are some there that would have been booing initially because they were racist. The fact that this gesture last night was applauded says to me that there is a problem with the origin of the message, rather than them all booing because they hate black people though.

BLM isn’t about “other stuff”, you’ve been fed bullshit by well funded racist groups on the right with no evidence whatsoever designed to delegitimise an anti racist movement because the racists don’t like it.

So here’s my question: why are some people so susceptible to believing this crap about anti racist movements, but doesn’t get up in arms about not anti racist movements that have actual documented links to actual radical politics?

And why do these people seem to cluster in the exact same places racists do, if them being racist has nothing to do with it? If I found myself constantly in the same places as racists, I’d start to wonder why.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Surely people should listen if people have an issue with "BLM" but none at all with every other discrimination cause?

There's a reason that the Premier League and others distanced and used "No Room for Racism"

It would get further than just shouting racist at everybody.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Taking the knee is associated with BLM. BLM is associated with a whole other world of stuff. If we give the Millwall fans the benefit of the doubt and presume they can read, and did read the statement, there is still an ugly association where the gesture is tarred.

My whole point was that you cannot just call everyone who doesn't conform to something in this circumstance a racist. It doesn't help to combat racism either, only seemingly making tensions worse. Last night they dropped the whole BLM associated act and the supporters got behind it.

As I have said previously, I have no time for Millwall or their fans. I suspect there are some there that would have been booing initially because they were racist. The fact that this gesture last night was applauded says to me that there is a problem with the origin of the message, rather than them all booing because they hate black people though.

What is the "whole world of other stuff" that concerns you, out of interest? I think I can probably guess, but I would also like to know.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

shmmeee said:
BLM isn’t about “other stuff”, you’ve been fed bullshit by well funded racist groups on the right with no evidence whatsoever designed to delegitimise an anti racist movement because the racists don’t like it.

What about when you get information from the source about BLM? The founders etc?

This is why it should have been pushed as "anti discrimination" in general rather than everybody being "BLM" but then saying "Oh but its nothing to do with the people who founded BLM or their linked organisation in the UK". It does lead to confusion doesn't it?

Whereas "Kick it out" and "No Room for Racism" removes all of that.

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

To be honest, most of the people i know personally who have seemingly made it their 2nd job to push home BLM at every opportunity, do have (in my opinion) a hard-left-wing background and I believe they have a political agenda that goes over and above a simple (and quite right) hatred of racism.

That's the image that has been cultivated, regardless of how or why...

My personal thought is that the single thing UEFA/FIFA managed to get correct over the years was their stance that all political messages were kept out of football.... Look at where we are now, it's a complete shit-show.

Call me a cynic, but I wonder where the high morals of top footballers will lie when it comes to the Qatar World Cup, bought by bribery and built on slavery... I'd love to see England and other major nations flat out boycott the qualifying stages and send a message. But that might harm their branding and image rights...

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
What about when you get information from the source about BLM? The founders etc?

This is why it should have been pushed as "anti discrimination" in general rather than everybody being "BLM" but then saying "Oh but its nothing to do with the people who founded BLM or their linked organisation in the UK". It does lead to confusion doesn't it?

Whereas "Kick it out" and "No Room for Racism" removes all of that.

And yet there was still examples of racist behaviour from Millwalls support when those two campaigns were running and the same people were making excuses for them!

I suppose Heung Min Son is a secret Marxist?!

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
And yet there was still examples of racist behaviour from Millwalls support when those two campaigns were running and the same people were making excuses for them.

Nope, there's no excuse for it at all regardless of which club it is and especially our own.

I can see why people disagree about BLM and the politics, there is absolutely no excuse for things against very simple, clear messages with no politics involved.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
To be honest, most of the people i know personally who have seemingly made it their 2nd job to push home BLM at every opportunity, do have (in my opinion) a hard-left-wing background and I believe they have a political agenda that goes over and above a simple (and quite right) hatred of racism.

That's the image that has been cultivated, regardless of how or why...

My personal thought is that the single thing UEFA/FIFA managed to get correct over the years was their stance that all political messages were kept out of football.... Look at where we are now, it's a complete shit-show.

Call me a cynic, but I wonder where the high morals of top footballers will lie when it comes to the Qatar World Cup, bought by bribery and built on slavery... I'd love to see England and other major nations flat out boycott the qualifying stages and send a message. But that might harm their branding and image rights...

Would in general agree with the first part. There is clearly going to be a left/right political aspect to it because of the way political systems work (or don't work) for a lot of people of colour. Clearly there will be outliers, but the general point remains the same.

I'd also love to see a boycott Qatar qualifying stages, but I guess this won't happen.

Liquid Gold · Dec 9, 2020

Lets set something straight here. BLM didn't event kneeling to protest racial injustice. It was invented by Colin Kaepernick after consulting with veterans of US military in order to find a way of peacefully protesting. BLM may have started to use the gesture but you can drop the connections to that if it concerns you and go back to the invention of the gesture, a simple anti-racist message. Nothing to do with Marxism, nothing to do with radical left politics, nothing to do with statues or flags.

Kneeling is a simple anti racist gesture and nothing else.

chiefdave · Dec 9, 2020

Astute said:
And yes the correct term is black. Other terms, colours and shades to describe are seen and used as racist terms. Please re-read what I said earlier and hopefully you will understand. Nobody should be defined by something that makes them different.

But what you seem to be saying is nobody can be described by any distinguishing characteristic. In your previous post you've suggested that black, white, little, big nose, ugly and bald are all off the table. Now admittedly some of those are subjective but for the ones that are descriptive what is the issue?

If you get attacked in the street and the police ask you to describe the assailant what are you going to do if you can't use adjectives?

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
Nothing to do with Marxism, nothing to do with radical left politics, nothing to do with statues or flags.

BLM UK's website explicitly says they are apolitical.

There is no confusion.

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Nope, there's no excuse for it at all regardless of which club it is and especially our own.

I can see why people disagree about BLM and the politics, there is absolutely no excuse for things against very simple, clear messages with no politics involved.

And that WAS a very clear and simple message by the Millwall players, with no politics involved.

Sky Blue Pete · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
To be honest, most of the people i know personally who have seemingly made it their 2nd job to push home BLM at every opportunity, do have (in my opinion) a hard-left-wing background and I believe they have a political agenda that goes over and above a simple (and quite right) hatred of racism.

That's the image that has been cultivated, regardless of how or why...

My personal thought is that the single thing UEFA/FIFA managed to get correct over the years was their stance that all political messages were kept out of football.... Look at where we are now, it's a complete shit-show.

Call me a cynic, but I wonder where the high morals of top footballers will lie when it comes to the Qatar World Cup, bought by bribery and built on slavery... I'd love to see England and other major nations flat out boycott the qualifying stages and send a message. But that might harm their branding and image rights...

Hard left wing me and shmmee lol

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Nope, there's no excuse for it at all regardless of which club it is and especially our own.

I can see why people disagree about BLM and the politics, there is absolutely no excuse for things against very simple, clear messages with no politics involved.

so lets get this straight, a statement is issued saying this isn't political, it's not linked to BLM it's purely a gesture against discrimination and some people say sorry we don't believe you you're secret Marxists.
Then fans with a history of racism say we weren't being racist on this occasion we don't like the covert political message and their apologists say oh yes, we believe you you weren't been racists this time? Fucking hell!!
And then people wonder why accusations of racism get thrown around.

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Nope, there's no excuse for it at all regardless of which club it is and especially our own.

I can see why people disagree about BLM and the politics, there is absolutely no excuse for things against very simple, clear messages with no politics involved.

there's people excusing it all over this thread.

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
Lets set something straight here. BLM didn't event kneeling to protest racial injustice. It was invented by Colin Kaepernick after consulting with veterans of US military in order to find a way of peacefully protesting. BLM may have started to use the gesture but you can drop the connections to that if it concerns you and go back to the invention of the gesture, a simple anti-racist message. Nothing to do with Marxism, nothing to do with radical left politics, nothing to do with statues or flags.

Kneeling is a simple anti racist gesture and nothing else.

And as I follow American Football, I saw this evolving before my eyes.

Should we go back to not displaying the St. George's flag, because some racist groups use it?

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
BLM UK's website explicitly says they are apolitical.

There is no confusion.

Do you believe thatthere is absolutely no political agenda behind BLM in the UK..?

I'd imagine that if you go onto UKIP or Britain First websites there will be similar statements attempting to distance themselves from racism, which are quite correctly called out for the bulllshit that they are...

Liquid Gold · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Nope, there's no excuse for it at all regardless of which club it is and especially our own.

I can see why people disagree about BLM and the politics, there is absolutely no excuse for things against very simple, clear messages with no politics involved.

So if I start a Neo-Marxist organisation that wants to overthrow the state and bring every kid up in an orphanage only reading Das Kapital and I make our symbol 1 minutes applause we should drop that as a mark of respect for the dead at football because it's now a political slogan?

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
Hard left wing me and shmmee lol

Pete I do not know you personally and I certainly wasn't referring to your nor anyone on this forum.

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
so lets get this straight, a statement is issued saying this isn't political, it's not linked to BLM it's purely a gesture against discrimination and some people say sorry we don't believe you you're secret Marxists.
Then fans with a history of racism say we weren't being racist on this occasion we don't like the covert political message and their apologists say oh yes, we believe you you weren't been racists this time? Fucking hell!!
And then people wonder why accusations of racism get thrown around.

Don't think there's any doubt that there will be a minority of racists (more at some clubs than others) that need to be dealt with.

Disagreeing or having issues with BLM doesn't instantly make you racist though does it?

Personally I just think.

Millwall Fans: No doubt some will be racially motivated, others with issues with BLM and they broke our statues (probably a lot linked). I personally wouldn't boo something even if I didn't agree with it out of respect, the same as that prick in town who filmed himself being a dickhead.

Players and Clubs: It's OK saying things aren't political but when you do gestures that have political links then don't confuse it. It's about what things have been pushed to mean to people recently, the taking the knee thing in the UK is very much linked to BLM.

When it comes to "BLM" as a thing, it very much is about politics for people.

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
Pete I do not know you personally and I certainly wasn't referring to your nor anyone on this forum.

I took it as a compliment tbh

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
So if I start a Neo-Marxist organisation that wants to overthrow the state and bring every kid up in an orphanage only reading Das Kapital and I make our symbol 1 minutes applause we should drop that as a mark of respect for the dead at football because it's now a political slogan?

It's how people take it isn't it?

When and why did "Taking the Knee" become a thing over here? What is it heavily linked to and about for people?

clint van damme · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
To be honest, most of the people i know personally who have seemingly made it their 2nd job to push home BLM at every opportunity, do have (in my opinion) a hard-left-wing background and I believe they have a political agenda that goes over and above a simple (and quite right) hatred of racism.

That's the image that has been cultivated, regardless of how or why...

My personal thought is that the single thing UEFA/FIFA managed to get correct over the years was their stance that all political messages were kept out of football.... Look at where we are now, it's a complete shit-show.

Call me a cynic, but I wonder where the high morals of top footballers will lie when it comes to the Qatar World Cup, bought by bribery and built on slavery... I'd love to see England and other major nations flat out boycott the qualifying stages and send a message. But that might harm their branding and image rights...

And to be honest I know a lot of people who are trying to tarnish an anti racism gesture with labels like 'Marxists' and 'hard left' to cover their own bigotry because they simply don't like the message.
I've personally said I think it should end, I know black supporters who think it should end but I think our reasoning is different to the likes of the Millwall support.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
Do you believe thatthere is absolutely no political agenda behind BLM in the UK..?

I'd imagine that if you go onto UKIP or Britain First websites there will be similar statements attempting to distance themselves from racism, which hare quite correctly called out for the bulllshit that they are...

Politics is everywhere, and everything. The politics of equality for a black person is, however, something we should all back.

We should stop this bullshit beyond that. The message, from the vast majority of protestors, is clear - equality for black people is needed, and it is needed now.

To decide that those people have an ulterior motive is deliberately confusing the issue. it also falls back to the oppression of black men, as the likes of Franz Fanon have written about, how language is taken away from black people, and used to oppress them.

If we can't accept that people want equality for blacks There. Is. No. Hope.

Just accept it, move on, and there would be no division. If I wanted to overthrow governments, I'd choose to do something beyond kneeling down for a minute!

Astute · Dec 9, 2020

Sky Blue Pete said:
Yep problematic how different people perceive different comments. Most legislation is how it’s perceived not how it’s meant for discrimination.
So the guy who says to the 4th referee why did you say ‘this black guy’ he’s saying me being black is not important why did you say this if you wouldn’t have said this white guy.
For that to escalate to everyone leaving the pitch seems an overreaction

What I’ve found is that when you call someone out it takes a huge person to say, actually that’s a really good point. I’m sorry if I caused offence by that I didn’t mean it and can see your point of view. What you get it is a defensive response initially and often and angry rebuttal saying that the person wronged has to question feeling got at or worse.

We can’t change our bias unless we are aware of it. Too many of us are afraid of going down the route for fear of what they’ll found and ignorance is more safe

If the Romanian official did do more then ok but let’s assume it was this.

So who thinks it’s offensive? I do. It’s not on the level of bananas being thrown at John Barnes but it’s a systemic issue the world over that needs challenging by those that have the power to get worldwide notice

I do think it’s so hard across the world when some countries are very very immature in terms of racism and sexism and homophobia

My personal story is that I’m pretty sure despite being a union guy and Christian and you know pretty nice that I have some horrid prejudices hidden away and some not so hidden away and I need to be more self aware and listen to people around me articulate their frustrations in this area

I signed up to nhs volunteer responder roles this last year and I found that I was tempted to cancel the task if it was an Asian name, what the hell I thought and so I had to actively suppress this racism and treat each job the same. I do get scared going to strangers houses to help but every job I’ve done people have been so thankful

What has surprised me is how this reaction hasn’t changed, I react in a racist way and I don’t choose to honestly. I strongly hold that all men women and children are created equal and are all equally valuable

So what do I do? Am I a bad person? Probably? Do I do the right thing each time and through experience will this Change or is there no hope for me?

My point is that it’s great those with the power are using it.

We need to be aware that none of us are perfect

We need to be honest and expect others to be honest with us

We need to listen to others story and be quick to apologise and quick to forgive

Those of us that hold MLK’s words in our hearts as important need to do more than manage our own behaviours and actions and act to stop comments and actions on a small individual level and big systemic level. This is especially necessary where we have power and influence for the good of all, most especially at this moment in time in football where people with a different colours skin are being treated differently

Rant and testimony over

I might not like a few things that you have stated but I admire your honesty. I also admire the work you do within your community.

The good thing is you are questioning yourself. It is a big part of what taking the knee is about. It is highlighting the problem we have and making people think of their own actions and also actions of others.

There is always hope for everyone. I now spend my spare time helping people in a real bad way for different reasons. I have a lot of respect for those who do it for a living.

Got to go just got a call. Will finish post later

Liquid Gold · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
It's how people take it isn't it?

When and why did "Taking the Knee" become a thing over here? What is it heavily linked to and about for some people?

I tell you how people should take it, by reading that the players are doing it with no links or support to any organisation and respecting that.

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
so lets get this straight, a statement is issued saying this isn't political, it's not linked to BLM it's purely a gesture against discrimination and some people say sorry we don't believe you you're secret Marxists.
Then fans with a history of racism say we weren't being racist on this occasion we don't like the covert political message and their apologists say oh yes, we believe you you weren't been racists this time? Fucking hell!!
And then people wonder why accusations of racism get thrown around.

Well this is the issue... BLM is (correctly or incorrectly) associated with politics in the UK. That's how it is.

Millwall are associated with racism and thuggery. (and quite frankly, even giving a very sceptical benefit of the doubt over their actions, what were they thinking!).

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 9, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
I tell you how people should take it, by reading that the players are doing it with no links or support to any organisation and respecting that.

How must you feel if you repeatedly say that's what iot means, and people tell you it isn't!

Otis · Dec 9, 2020

Nick said:
Don't think there's any doubt that there will be a minority of racists (more at some clubs than others) that need to be dealt with.

Disagreeing or having issues with BLM doesn't instantly make you racist though does it?

Personally I just think.

Millwall Fans: No doubt some will be racially motivated, others with issues with BLM and they broke our statues (probably a lot linked). I personally wouldn't boo something even if I didn't agree with it out of respect, the same as that prick in town who filmed himself being a dickhead.

Players and Clubs: It's OK saying things aren't political but when you do gestures that have political links then don't confuse it. It's about what things have been pushed to mean to people recently, the taking the knee thing in the UK is very much linked to BLM.

When it comes to "BLM" as a thing, it very much is about politics for people.

But there was absolute clarity in that Millwall players statement. They couldn't have been clearer could they?

I don't get it. If the City players put out a statement like that I doubt anyone at all would boo..

other than idiots and racists .

Travs · Dec 9, 2020

clint van damme said:
And to be honest I know a lot of people who are trying to tarnish an anti racism gesture with labels like 'Marxists' and 'hard left' to cover their own bigotry because they simply don't like the message.
I've personally said I think it should end, I know black supporters who think it should end but I think our reasoning is different to the likes of the Millwall support.

I totally agree with this.

By the same token of my first point... Those I know who go out of their way to constantly moan about it, I either know or heavily suspect to be quite racist...

Jamesimus · Dec 9, 2020

Travs said:
Well this is the issue... BLM is (correctly or incorrectly) associated with politics in the UK. That's how it is.

How could an anti-racist movement, one that is attempting to address systemic and institutional racism (as well as the more obvious kinds) NOT be associated with politics?

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
I tell you how people should take it, by reading that the players are doing it with no links or support to any organisation and respecting that.

As I said, of course it should be respected.

Although there clearly are links and support because why did taking the knee become a thing???

That's the point, mix politics in and it gets blurred. Regardless of them saying it isn't political, I am sure Gary Deegan wasn't being political when he said "Up the IRA".

Nick · Dec 9, 2020

Deleted member 5849 said:
How must you feel if you repeatedly say that's what iot means, and people tell you it isn't!

Go outside, throw some nazi salutes and goose step about. Tell them it isn't to do with Nazis at all.

People keep saying "We are nothing to do with BLM" but then do things that were pretty much becoming a thing over here after George Flloyd.

Here's an idea, if things aren't to do with BLM then get behind the "No Room for Racism" and "Kick it Out" and go all in with that.

Liquid Gold · Dec 9, 2020

And look at all of us, doing the racist's work by ignoring anti-racism and going round and round about what a gesture means. Deflecting and distracting all of us. This should be a 5 post thread

'Footballers are kneeling against racism'
'Fuck racism'
'I agree'

Arguing about the fucking gesture they've chosen does nothing.

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