Stop and search (1 Viewer)

OffenhamSkyBlue · Mar 31, 2019

It is being reported that the Home Secretary has given increased Section 60 powers to a number of police forces (including West Mids) where knife crime is seemingly spiralling out of control.

Is it because i am a white, middle-aged, middle-class male who has never been in trouble with the law that i have the view that an officer of constabulary should be able to require someone to turn out their pockets without getting a court order?

OK, "reasonable cause" i accept, but isn't it now "reasonable" (by the legal definition) to believe that at least some members of groups of teenagers (no matter what their racial mix) will be carrying some sort of weapon? If you're a teenager on the street, late at night, you are quite likely to be involved in some form of criminality.

It's not just in the USA where zero tolerance approaches such as that in New York have been successful - it has worked in Scotland (particularly Glasgow) too.

Am i just naive?

eastwoodsdustman · Mar 31, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
It is being reported that the Home Secretary has given increased Section 60 powers to a number of police forces (including West Mids) where knife crime is seemingly spiralling out of control.

Is it because i am a white, middle-aged, middle-class male who has never been in trouble with the law that i have the view that an officer of constabulary should be able to require someone to turn out their pockets without getting a court order?

OK, "reasonable cause" i accept, but isn't it now "reasonable" (by the legal definition) to believe that at least some members of groups of teenagers (no matter what their racial mix) will be carrying some sort of weapon? If you're a teenager on the street, late at night, you are quite likely to be involved in some form of criminality.

It's not just in the USA where zero tolerance approaches such as that in New York have been successful - it has worked in Scotland (particularly Glasgow) too.

Am i just naive?

Spot on. Nothing to hide so nothing to worry about.

RegTheDonk · Mar 31, 2019

Not sure but "reasonable cause" would presumably be there's been a report of an incident and said persons fit the general description of the offender. I guess it's falling into the worlds of stereotyping and unconscious bias if you start searching young adults because they fall into the age group, or they live in a problem area.

I agree it should be more flexible, particularly as carrying an offensive weapon is an arrestable offence. How are you going to know unless you search someone. Bit late once they've used it.

Wonder how lawful it is to get searched when going into a football ground, you would think this is also banding all football fans as knife wielding troulbe makers. Mabye because you're not on public property?

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

There should be good reason. I’ve been accused of stuff before. Some police let power go to their heads and that’s a risk.

Nick · Mar 31, 2019

No issue with it at all. Crack on.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Mar 31, 2019

Pete, I could understand the issues the black community had with it in the 80s, when the police, and particularly the Met were well-documented as being institutionally racist, but that is SURELY not the case in this day and age? I accept the unconscious bias argument to some extent, but this can't be allowed to undermine the whole of society.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
Spot on. Nothing to hide so nothing to worry about.

Until of course it is disproportionately one ethnicity getting searched. We know in the USA that’s what happens and that the same ethnic group is prosecuted disproportionately for the same offence despite carrying out the crime at similar rates.

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 31, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
Pete, I could understand the issues the black community had with it in the 80s, when the police, and particularly the Met were well-documented as being institutionally racist, but that is SURELY not the case in this day and age? I accept the unconscious bias argument to some extent, but this can't be allowed to undermine the whole of society.

No let’s just fund more police officers to physically be present

clint van damme · Mar 31, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
It is being reported that the Home Secretary has given increased Section 60 powers to a number of police forces (including West Mids) where knife crime is seemingly spiralling out of control.

Is it because i am a white, middle-aged, middle-class male who has never been in trouble with the law that i have the view that an officer of constabulary should be able to require someone to turn out their pockets without getting a court order?

OK, "reasonable cause" i accept, but isn't it now "reasonable" (by the legal definition) to believe that at least some members of groups of teenagers (no matter what their racial mix) will be carrying some sort of weapon? If you're a teenager on the street, late at night, you are quite likely to be involved in some form of criminality.

It's not just in the USA where zero tolerance approaches such as that in New York have been successful - it has worked in Scotland (particularly Glasgow) too.

Am i just naive?

While agreeing with the main sentiment of your post it isnt stop and search which has saw the reduction in knife crine in Scotland and Glasgow in particular.
And zero tolerance in New York was launched in conjunction with other successful but expensive initiatives which there is not a chance this government would fund.

eastwoodsdustman · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No let’s just fund more police officers to physically be present

Throwing money at something won’t sort it. Look at the NHS. It has to be put in the right place. As for targeting people. Again look where the biggest problem is and target it. If it’s black on black knife attacks in London then target it. If it’s white lads in Coventry then target them. No point in trying to appease different think tanks and the like while kids are dying every week.

Sky Blue Pete · Mar 31, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
No let’s just fund more police officers to physically be present

Yep I think I’d prefer that. I don’t have a problem with selective stop and search

clint van damme · Mar 31, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
Throwing money at something won’t sort it. Look at the NHS. It has to be put in the right place. As for targeting people. Again look where the biggest problem is and target it. If it’s black on black knife attacks in London then target it. If it’s white lads in Coventry then target them. No point in trying to appease different think tanks and the like while kids are dying every week.

It's not just knife crime crime in general is through the roof
Mays assertion that there is no correlation between the cuts to the police and the rise in crime is quite frankly bollocks

Gazolba · Apr 1, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
<snip<

It's not just in the USA where zero tolerance approaches such as that in New York have been successful - it has worked in Scotland (particularly Glasgow) too.

<snip>

Stop and frisk as it was known in New York is no longer legal.
In fact anywhere in the USA, it would be open to a constitutional challenge as 'unlawful search and seizure'.

SkyBlueDom26 · Apr 1, 2019

If police want to stop and search me or anybody they should be allowed to...
Why would it be a problem if there is nothing to hide!

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Apr 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Until of course it is disproportionately one ethnicity getting searched. We know in the USA that’s what happens and that the same ethnic group is prosecuted disproportionately for the same offence despite carrying out the crime at similar rates.

What are the crime rates there?

I'm sure I heard something like 44% of murders are carried out by black Americans, which make up 18% of the population.

As for stop and search, crack on. If you're innocent you'll be on your way.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2019

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
What are the crime rates there?

I'm sure I heard something like 44% of murders are carried out by black Americans, which make up 18% of the population.

As for stop and search, crack on. If you're innocent you'll be on your way.

You will also know that drug use rates are similar but black Americans are prosecuted much more often. Wonder why.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You will also know that drug use rates are similar but black Americans are prosecuted much more often. Wonder why.

the documentary the house we live in is well worth a watch on this subject.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Apr 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You will also know that drug use rates are similar but black Americans are prosecuted much more often. Wonder why.

Murder is a bit worse isn't it?

Surely if a specific demographic was factually proven to be overrepresentitive in the figures, it would only be common sense that these stop and searches would be more valid, wouldn't it?

If someone hasn't done anything wrong, being stopped and then proving that shouldn't be a problem. If it makes society safer then they can crack on and search me whenever.

If someone has something to hide however...

skybluegod · Apr 1, 2019

eastwoodsdustman said:
Throwing money at something won’t sort it. Look at the NHS. It has to be put in the right place. As for targeting people. Again look where the biggest problem is and target it. If it’s black on black knife attacks in London then target it. If it’s white lads in Coventry then target them. No point in trying to appease different think tanks and the like while kids are dying every week.

I agree to an extent about funding, money is spent badly in all public services, and throwing money at it doesn't necessarily help, but there is a need for more investment. The fact that police can now not proactively prevent crime is due to budget cuts, and we only just have enough officers to respond to 999 calls.

The whole public sector needs a complete overhaul.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2019

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Murder is a bit worse isn't it?

Surely if a specific demographic was factually proven to be overrepresentitive in the figures, it would only be common sense that these stop and searches would be more valid, wouldn't it?

If someone hasn't done anything wrong, being stopped and then proving that shouldn't be a problem. If it makes society safer then they can crack on and search me whenever.

If someone has something to hide however...

I don’t think you would be saying this if your skin colour was the determining factor in being searched. I would have less of a problem with targeting problematic areas more often

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 1, 2019

I think that's how they tackled it in Brum recently, wasn't it? Get a city-wide Section 60 order. They did Operation Sceptre in Cov too, blitzing Hillfields for a week.

eastwoodsdustman · Apr 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don’t think you would be saying this if your skin colour was the determining factor in being searched. I would have less of a problem with targeting problematic areas more often

If I was I'd be happier about it happening knowing that my son was out and about. I'm sure a lot of Black kids parents are happy enough with it too knowing the current scale of knife crime amongst young black lads especially in London.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2019

skybluegod said:
I agree to an extent about funding, money is spent badly in all public services, and throwing money at it doesn't necessarily help, but there is a need for more investment. The fact that police can now not proactively prevent crime is due to budget cuts, and we only just have enough officers to respond to 999 calls.

The whole public sector needs a complete overhaul.

Teachers are asking for exercise books not Ferraris. Go into any Coventry state school and it will be crying out for proper investment. Ran out of exercise books in mine around January last year

skybluegod · Apr 1, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Teachers are asking for exercise books not Ferraris. Go into any Coventry state school and it will be crying out for proper investment. Ran out of exercise books in mine around January last year

Where did i mention schools?

In any case go back and read the post and i said investment is needed, but eastwoods is right, throwing money at it isn't the solution. Look at the headteacher of Ashlawn school, was being paid in excess of 200,000... how stupid is that when as you say kids can't even get textbooks.

NHS, pay £10 for a ruler that is only £1 in £land but because of regulations can only get them off designated suppliers.

Police, instead of opening up recruitment (until recently tbf) they have been paying some officers 61k in overtime, that's 3 new police officers wages.

Yes investment is needed but smarter spending is also needed.

CJ_covblaze · Apr 1, 2019

Nick said:
No issue with it at all. Crack on.

Same here. What’s the issue. They can search me when ever they like.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
Where did i mention schools?

In any case go back and read the post and i said investment is needed, but eastwoods is right, throwing money at it isn't the solution. Look at the headteacher of Ashlawn school, was being paid in excess of 200,000... how stupid is that when as you say kids can't even get textbooks.

NHS, pay £10 for a ruler that is only £1 in £land but because of regulations can only get them off designated suppliers.

Police, instead of opening up recruitment (until recently tbf) they have been paying some officers 61k in overtime, that's 3 new police officers wages.

Yes investment is needed but smarter spending is also needed.

"The whole public sector needs an overhaul", you said.
But all of the points you make here are spot on.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
Where did i mention schools?

In any case go back and read the post and i said investment is needed, but eastwoods is right, throwing money at it isn't the solution. Look at the headteacher of Ashlawn school, was being paid in excess of 200,000... how stupid is that when as you say kids can't even get textbooks.

NHS, pay £10 for a ruler that is only £1 in £land but because of regulations can only get them off designated suppliers.

Police, instead of opening up recruitment (until recently tbf) they have been paying some officers 61k in overtime, that's 3 new police officers wages.

Yes investment is needed but smarter spending is also needed.

You said the whole public sector. Yes there is some wasted spending on salaries of those at the top but it isn’t enough to fill the hole. I was at one Coventry school that stood to lose nearly £1 million off its budget because of changes to the funding formula. This is also a school where classroom ceilings fell in.

Class sizes are getting higher and teachers are getting fewer. Would like to see them start by giving teachers a fair pay rise then taking action to keep us in the profession.

skybluegod · Apr 2, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
"The whole public sector needs an overhaul", you said.
But all of the points you make here are spot on.

Yes it does, that doesn't mean simply money does it?

It means the head of those sectors, the culture, the habits need changing.

skybluegod · Apr 2, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You said the whole public sector. Yes there is some wasted spending on salaries of those at the top but it isn’t enough to fill the hole. I was at one Coventry school that stood to lose nearly £1 million off its budget because of changes to the funding formula. This is also a school where classroom ceilings fell in.

Class sizes are getting higher and teachers are getting fewer. Would like to see them start by giving teachers a fair pay rise then taking action to keep us in the profession.

Again see above. The whole public sector needs a complete overhaul
That doesn't just mean money. That is everything.

I have never said there is a lack of funding, in fact go back to the first post i said investment was needed, but the idea of throwing more money at it isn't the solution.

We have seen money thrown at public services and it is often wasted. Why would they be trusted with more money before they can sort out the current wastage? It needs to be a balance of checking the books to see where there is wastage and diverting funds to areas that are needed.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
Again see above. The whole public sector needs a complete overhaul
That doesn't just mean money. That is everything.

I have never said there is a lack of funding, in fact go back to the first post i said investment was needed, but the idea of throwing more money at it isn't the solution.

We have seen money thrown at public services and it is often wasted. Why would they be trusted with more money before they can sort out the current wastage? It needs to be a balance of checking the books to see where there is wastage and diverting funds to areas that are needed.

Just saying I need the resources to do my job.

skybluegod · Apr 2, 2019

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Just saying I need the resources to do my job.

My mums been a headteacher for a decade. And a teacher however many years before that. Im well aware of the issues around funding. However, headteachers with a bit of creativity can make it work.

skybluegod · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
My mums been a headteacher for a decade. And a teacher however many years before that. Im well aware of the issues around funding. However, headteachers with a bit of creativity can make it work.

Further to this, there are much greater concerns to teaching/education than funding.
I think one of the key factors on education failing is down to the fact that the head of education in the government has no background in education and so has no way of understanding teaching.

Another factor in a failing education system (high turnover of teachers) is teachers aren't teachers for the want of being a teacher most teachers in my experience have fallen into it as a second option.

Many other factors as I'm sure you are aware

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 2, 2019

Of course half the reason people don't pick teaching as first option, is the very first sniff of them being adequately renumerated to attract the best, then people complain and demand their salaries are cut to pay for books...

clint van damme · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
Further to this, there are much greater concerns to teaching/education than funding.
I think one of the key factors on education failing is down to the fact that the head of education in the government has no background in education and so has no way of understanding teaching.

Another factor in a failing education system (high turnover of teachers) is teachers aren't teachers for the want of being a teacher most teachers in my experience have fallen into it as a second option.

Many other factors as I'm sure you are aware

I know fair few teachers and it was first option for all of them. Just my experience.
I think they're mad!

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 2, 2019

skybluegod said:
Further to this, there are much greater concerns to teaching/education than funding.
I think one of the key factors on education failing is down to the fact that the head of education in the government has no background in education and so has no way of understanding teaching.

Another factor in a failing education system (high turnover of teachers) is teachers aren't teachers for the want of being a teacher most teachers in my experience have fallen into it as a second option.

Many other factors as I'm sure you are aware

Yes of course there are other factors but I don’t bring up money to be frivolous, it’s basic stuff that can’t be bought. As for the other stuff, I have now taught in comp, grammar, and private. In 2 of those knowing your stuff is valued and in one the kids respect people who bummed around at school and who don’t expect much back.

It’s that culture which is perpetuated by people joining in the way you describe

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