Sky Blue Trust Meeting At Ricoh On Saturday (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ashbyjan
- Start date
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Haha, funny, real original, wooo, go you. Actually, if you must know, I was having my dinner, and now I'm doing an essay on Tudor England, religious reforms under Henry VIII and Edward VI which is at the minute, more important than this debate, so I'll be back on in a couple of hours.
I also recall another argument/debate (your choice sir) where you 'fled the battlefield' and I didn't call you out saying something along the lines of, the old mans home called Valient back. Real responsible 'adult'
I'm real tempted to carry on, but school work comes first at the min, sorry to disappoint.
Thanks kg82
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Make a change -- burning some monastries instead of bridges SBT
CJparker
New Member
To get back to the original topic - I don't think City fans will ever be in a position to take the club over, or buy a share of the ground. There may be a few wealthy City fans, but not normal supporters bandning together.
Either SISU will stay, or they will sell, or they will let the club collapse (the least likely). If they sell, someone will have to have enough money to buy it from them i.e. not the fans. If it collapses, then the fans won't have a chance of rescuing the club due to the scale of the debt.
It's scary to say it, but whatever happens is totally out of our hands. Better, IMO, to devote energies to more practical matters where we CAN make a difference, than planning for scenarios that'll never happen.
Either SISU will stay, or they will sell, or they will let the club collapse (the least likely). If they sell, someone will have to have enough money to buy it from them i.e. not the fans. If it collapses, then the fans won't have a chance of rescuing the club due to the scale of the debt.
It's scary to say it, but whatever happens is totally out of our hands. Better, IMO, to devote energies to more practical matters where we CAN make a difference, than planning for scenarios that'll never happen.
cloughie
Well-Known Member
Your doing your home work and I am guessing but i doubt your 18.
You obviously do not understand the arena set up even though it has been explained to you several times to you.
a wise decision to study your home work you may learn something, but on the law of averages the amount of facts you have taken in on here about the Ricoh, you wouldn't pass a GCSE.
sorry to have to give a kid a slap, but you really need to read the facts presented, as you don't understand then give up
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Lets hope he is not doing GSCE Economics -- do they still do a U Grade?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What total garbage Valiant. 5 year degree with over £20k of student debt, yeah what a sponger I am.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I take it back Valiant.
gary_ccfcforever
Well-Known Member
level of debt? have you seen pompeys level of debt???
CJparker
New Member
Ah Grendel, you may wind me up 99% of the time but sometimes you are pure gold!!
Wrenstreetcarpark
New Member
SkyBlue_Taylor: you are history.
MichaelCCFC
New Member
CJp - enjoy reading your posts and am wondering if you maybe have some financial expertise behind your insights? When you say something like 'someone will have enough money to buy it [the club]' my response is to ask how much money would it take? Are we all just guessing or does anyone have concrete info on how much/little Sisu would take? When you refer to 'If it [the club] collapses' does that mean going into administration, in which case won't the debt cease to be a critical factor? Given the CCFC/Sisu situation, creative thinking is required but there are ways that by working with other stakeholders supporters could get a stake in the club. I'm unclear why you think this is completely impossible - is it just an optimist v pessimist thing or do you have specific expertise/info that leads you to this view? Cheers
Buying a portion of the stadium isn't part of the plan! Even if it were, don't you think the inevitable loan will pretty much eat up any profits thereby making it a pointless gesture!
The evil council have a LEGAL DUTY to get the best deal for ALL TAXPAYERS not just the few hundred in the SBT! They MUST sell at a reasonable and fair amount. The SBT seem to think the council and ACL hsve a duty to help this motley band take this asset of their hands! They are in cloud cuckoo land.
Even the so-called "successful" pompey bid is far from done - indeed unless they can get the government to remove the listed building status from Fratton Park - its dead in the water!
Sure ther are ways of doing it, but not from a few hundred chancers trying to get there names in the paper.
The only way this deal can be done (as with Swansea) is if the total debt is far smaller (£1mill in the case of Swansea) - Getting fans alone to fund buyout of a club £60mill in debt with NO assets is NOT POSSIBLE!
Even Pompeys' bid is solely reliant on IMMEDIATELY selling the ground - an option NOT POSSIBLE for Cov!
Get over yourselves guys - THIS CANNOT WORK!!!
FFS you can't even manage to get SISU to turn the PA down!
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Good banter lads, but I passed my GCSE's and half my A levels, currently in my final year before, hopefully uni, wrong old men. Btw,Grendel, I have never had a U grade. Sorry to disappoint.
Firstly, SISU have admitted they have made mistakes And would run the club differently if they could start again, and insist they are committed to CCFC, if this is to be believed, it is up to the individual, they could be telling the truth, it's in their best interests anyway so I'll go with the flow.
I can remember reading somewhere ACL made a profit of 1m not 500k last year (not 100% so don't hold mt to that figure!) although they technically haven't because of the loan, but, if you look beyond face value, over 12 yrs (length of loan, 7 gone?) they'll be making a neat profit from the 13th year on wards, so selling to CCFC might not be best for them (directed at council not Higgs).
However, CCFC hold the cards here, without a club playing there, what would the council do with a 32.5k stadium? They'd lose much money because they would have lost a weekly revenue, from the kiosks' rent etc. oh, and the businesses around them in the arena park would lose money as well, workers get sacked, more unemployment in the area and so on. If they didn't need us, they would've kicked us out by now. I understand CCFC pay, on top of rent, 130k to upkeep the RICOH. The fact now is, the rent is too high for L1 club, 4 years ago, we were in the championship, they should lower the rent at an absolute minimum (can we all agree on that?). Oh and ACL have said if a viable, long term business plan is put forward, they negotiate a deal, now, it could be down to interpretation, so not completely flawless is it, the people looking at the plan may disagree with it because they think differently.
SISU have made new promises, apologised for the past, and with no investor in sight, looks like the only option at the minute, I highly doubt Hoffman will come to the rescue and I don't to think our fans could run a football club, and I doubt a Fans' Trust could run a football club as big as ours, our Pompey for that matter!
Oh, I weren't saying the subsidy to Tesco was good or bad, I said a council is hardly socialist if it gives subsidies to corporations.
Firstly, SISU have admitted they have made mistakes And would run the club differently if they could start again, and insist they are committed to CCFC, if this is to be believed, it is up to the individual, they could be telling the truth, it's in their best interests anyway so I'll go with the flow.
I can remember reading somewhere ACL made a profit of 1m not 500k last year (not 100% so don't hold mt to that figure!) although they technically haven't because of the loan, but, if you look beyond face value, over 12 yrs (length of loan, 7 gone?) they'll be making a neat profit from the 13th year on wards, so selling to CCFC might not be best for them (directed at council not Higgs).
However, CCFC hold the cards here, without a club playing there, what would the council do with a 32.5k stadium? They'd lose much money because they would have lost a weekly revenue, from the kiosks' rent etc. oh, and the businesses around them in the arena park would lose money as well, workers get sacked, more unemployment in the area and so on. If they didn't need us, they would've kicked us out by now. I understand CCFC pay, on top of rent, 130k to upkeep the RICOH. The fact now is, the rent is too high for L1 club, 4 years ago, we were in the championship, they should lower the rent at an absolute minimum (can we all agree on that?). Oh and ACL have said if a viable, long term business plan is put forward, they negotiate a deal, now, it could be down to interpretation, so not completely flawless is it, the people looking at the plan may disagree with it because they think differently.
SISU have made new promises, apologised for the past, and with no investor in sight, looks like the only option at the minute, I highly doubt Hoffman will come to the rescue and I don't to think our fans could run a football club, and I doubt a Fans' Trust could run a football club as big as ours, our Pompey for that matter!
Oh, I weren't saying the subsidy to Tesco was good or bad, I said a council is hardly socialist if it gives subsidies to corporations.
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Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
As other posts have stated, this business to do with the RICOH doesn't interfere with taxpayers.
Why are you going about Pompey to me? (if not I apologise)
But since you did.
They not want to sell Fratton Park, the land around it.
I also don't think a fans trust would work for them or us, although they'd be better off since thy own their ground and their owners are hands own worse than SISU, I actually feel slightly sorry for them, but then I think of the times they cheated...
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
I disagree with the assertion that a fans association couldn't run a club 'as big' as City.
I'm sure the demographic of who reads this forum alone would give rise to interested fans who own or run bigger institutions than CCFC, accountants and lawyers.
The mechanism to permit such folk to run the club right now I acknowledge as troublesome; but I do believe , no, make that know, the people with the right skills are available and willing
I'm sure the demographic of who reads this forum alone would give rise to interested fans who own or run bigger institutions than CCFC, accountants and lawyers.
The mechanism to permit such folk to run the club right now I acknowledge as troublesome; but I do believe , no, make that know, the people with the right skills are available and willing
CJparker
New Member
Thanks Micahel - I did accountancy course at university and work in a commercial role in business, so have some understanding how finances work
The amout of money it would take to actually buy CCFC i.e. take over the debt, is around £50m. Add to that the cost of buying the Ricoh (£20m maybe), £1.2m a year in rent, £250k pcm in losses and the millions of pounds it will take to put together a squad capable of getting into the Prem, you are looking at £100m maybe to make the investment viable.
By "collapsing" I mean going bust, going into liquidation, where we slide out of the league. Administration is unlikely, but if it does happen, it will be used to wipe off some of the debt (mostly to small creditors and ACL), whilst keeping the debt owed to SISU's investors via the Arvo debenture.
I don't think it's completely impossible for fans to take the club over - just that the fans as a group will never have the financial resources to make it work.
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
This isn't a pop at you CJ, but there have been a number of posts where people have said that it would cost £40/50/60m (as you prefer) to take over the club, because SISU have invested that much.
The amount that they've invested is obviously of massive interest to them and I'm sure that they'd love to get their money back - although I'd be amazed if their investment has not been hugely written down in their own books - and so on this basis it would clearly form part of their negotiating stance.
However it is pretty irrelevant to what the business is actually worth. There are broardly three ways to value a business:
1) Asset value - we don't score very highly here
2) Current value of future profits - no, not too good there either
3) Some combination of 1) and 2) - see the earlier comments!
The amount of investment that SISU put in is sadly (from their point of view) of little interest in the value calculation. They put the money in, now it's gone and there's nothing of value to show for it.
At the moment I think that SISU realise that the value of their investment is now very small and appear to be trying to keep things ticking over with the minimum additional investment they can, while hoping that the club's fortunes on the pitch will improve, we might get a promotion and gradually they might be able to recover some of their lost value. If they're not having to spend too much, there's no need to sell and to then crystallise their losses.
If they find that they're having to write more cheques and that any prospect of future value is looking as far away as ever - then the "don't throw good money after bad" arguement will get stronger and they may decide to get whatever they can for the club and leave, rubbing their wounds.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I agree with that DTD. People only have to look back at when SISU came in and the 35m of debts they got written off before taking over
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
can we get something straight about the rent
There is a valid lease given to CCFC by ACL which has never been challenged in court or by CCFC/SISU. That sets the rent. CCFC might not like £1.2m but no one likes paying rent, but they have never challenged it formally..... not sure there are any grounds to do so.
The rent isnt based on the financial state of the tenant it is based on the value of the property..... that is how rents are commercially set.
In the real business world CCFC would have had to prove viability, provide proof and references, a detailed business plan...... something they havent done so far at the Ricoh...... they got in partly because no one had the stomach for seeing the club go bust
Any reduction in rent or deferment is at the sole choice of the landlord ACL, CCFC can not set the rent to be paid.
The reason CCFC have not paid the rent has nothing to do with the how much but has everything to do with a strategy to get hold of ACL cheaply thereby giving SISU an out on their "investment"
The council and charity have not taken one penny reward from ACL
The council and charity do not want to see the football club fail.......... they have repeatedly said that they want a viable business partner capable of investing in the club and stadium.
It is up to CCFC/SISU to come up with a viable business plan, to put forward a proper financial case to reduce the rent, to negotiate with ACL for the benefit of both parties .......... not simply not pay any rent for 7 months!
The rent due is probably far less than any interest and capital repayments CCFC would have to pay on money borrowed to buy 50% or 100% of ACL (the freehold isnt on offer right now ..... but then again neither are the shares until the criteria repeatedly asked for by council and charity are met)
Right now it is about who blinks first ........... but the CCFC position is precarious and ACL's patience isn't going to stretch much further in my opinion......
Also why does everyone seem to assume that ACL are sitting there waiting for things to happen? That ACL are purely reactive not proactive........... if you were in their position knowing far more than we do here what would you be doing? just sit on your hands and wait for the worst or make plans or mitigate the potential for loss without income from CCFC ?
There is a valid lease given to CCFC by ACL which has never been challenged in court or by CCFC/SISU. That sets the rent. CCFC might not like £1.2m but no one likes paying rent, but they have never challenged it formally..... not sure there are any grounds to do so.
The rent isnt based on the financial state of the tenant it is based on the value of the property..... that is how rents are commercially set.
In the real business world CCFC would have had to prove viability, provide proof and references, a detailed business plan...... something they havent done so far at the Ricoh...... they got in partly because no one had the stomach for seeing the club go bust
Any reduction in rent or deferment is at the sole choice of the landlord ACL, CCFC can not set the rent to be paid.
The reason CCFC have not paid the rent has nothing to do with the how much but has everything to do with a strategy to get hold of ACL cheaply thereby giving SISU an out on their "investment"
The council and charity have not taken one penny reward from ACL
The council and charity do not want to see the football club fail.......... they have repeatedly said that they want a viable business partner capable of investing in the club and stadium.
It is up to CCFC/SISU to come up with a viable business plan, to put forward a proper financial case to reduce the rent, to negotiate with ACL for the benefit of both parties .......... not simply not pay any rent for 7 months!
The rent due is probably far less than any interest and capital repayments CCFC would have to pay on money borrowed to buy 50% or 100% of ACL (the freehold isnt on offer right now ..... but then again neither are the shares until the criteria repeatedly asked for by council and charity are met)
Right now it is about who blinks first ........... but the CCFC position is precarious and ACL's patience isn't going to stretch much further in my opinion......
Also why does everyone seem to assume that ACL are sitting there waiting for things to happen? That ACL are purely reactive not proactive........... if you were in their position knowing far more than we do here what would you be doing? just sit on your hands and wait for the worst or make plans or mitigate the potential for loss without income from CCFC ?
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Wrenstreetcarpark
New Member
Time is not on our side. It was clear on BBC C&W this morning that the sands are running out for Sisu. The amount of rent now owed must be getting too much for ACL to stomach. It all makes the Trust's meeting all the more important as a first step in getting an escape plan formulated. Anybody who still thinks that Seppala is going to hose more money in still believes in Santa Claus (another finnish-american invention).
skyblueman
New Member
The club just pay the match day expenses week by week - this is all the stuff ACL needs to provide to open the ground and their costs incurred - power etc
None of the rent is being paid at the moment
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
what was said on CWR this morning ? i missed it
CJparker
New Member
You're possibl forgetting that the debt is not money "put in by SISU" - SISU found investors and directed their money into CCFC, which are effectively loans. Even if SISU walk away tomorrow, our creditors will remain (I think the major one is an Ohio pension fund). So whoever takes over the club, even if they buy the title for £1, will have to contend with the exisitng debts and interest payments.
skyblueman
New Member
Administration isn't the way....
Only possible route for the Trust would be post liquidation and we really don't want to be going there
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
not right cjp .......... it is no different to the loans that SISU discounted when they took over. No one is ever going to come in and take over the full debt - which is SISU's whole problem. A buyer would purchase the shares and what they represent and negotiate with the creditors to discount the debts before they do that. They are locked in and dont want to be, the only way they get anything like full amount back is by CCFC being successful or owning the site and selling it on. Only way they can walk away from it other than that is by admin or liquidation - which would severly discount the loans they have.
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
There is a fair chance that most of the investment from the first 3.5 yrs has been written down/off.
The appearance of ARVO as an entity seems to signify a seperate source of income from early last year, that is how I beieve TF can state our current debt level is circa £14-15M.
The charge on all assets seem to relate to this particular investment and Sisus reputation in the City may take a battering dependent on what percentage of their portfolio £40m is
Pennsylvanias State university Pension fund is set for a hit I think
The appearance of ARVO as an entity seems to signify a seperate source of income from early last year, that is how I beieve TF can state our current debt level is circa £14-15M.
The charge on all assets seem to relate to this particular investment and Sisus reputation in the City may take a battering dependent on what percentage of their portfolio £40m is
Pennsylvanias State university Pension fund is set for a hit I think
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