Sisu have ACL valuation !!!!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[duffer]

Osb or anybody else.

How was the value of the original CCFC share in ACL arrived at?

Why was it £6m? How could shares in a new company that hadn't traded be valued as such?

What did CCFC do with the £6m?

Why did the charity undertake such a risky purchase?

The last two are the easy ones - CCFC needed the £6.5m to save them from going under, and the charity gave them the money to help them out. The valuation was presumably agreed between the two parties, which of course is how values for things are typically established, and there was a formula and option for CCFC to buy it back.

The 'risky purchase' here presumes that Higgs were taking a gamble for their own benefit. There's no suggestion of that, is there?

 

---

[Grendel]

The 'risky purchase' here presumes that Higgs were taking a gamble for their own benefit. There's no suggestion of that, is there?

The suggestion is that it is "risky" to invest in a project whose success and valuation relied wholly on a football club that was hugely in debt and was faced with a business model that required 22,500 paying adults every week merely to break even.

That to me sounds risky.

 

[Astute]

What did the council say about the valuation of the Higgs share?

Not a lot considering they were not in court. But even you know this.

 

[Astute]

The suggestion is that it is "risky" to invest in a project whose success and valuation relied wholly on a football club that was hugely in debt and was faced with a business model that required 22,500 paying adults every week merely to break even.

That to me sounds risky.

But SISU are a hedge fund and thought they could bully a profit from somewhere. Whereas ACL seem to be doing OK without our club and SISU.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

No it wasn't. The 5.5m offer was for the so called road map idea. 5.5m was offered, but like I said offered over 10 years. Later on in the year 2m was offered. The reason was that ACL was worthless.

There was an offer of £2m, no issues with you at all there. But the 'donation' bit in court was £5.5m. I copied the court extract.


Edit - sorry the quoting seems to be playing up for me.

 

[torchomatic]

That sounds like madness to me as well as risky. No wonder we were on the road to ruin when we moved to the Ricoh.

....that required 22,500 paying adults every week merely to break even.

That to me sounds risky.

 

[Grendel]

But SISU are a hedge fund and thought they could bully a profit from somewhere. Whereas ACL seem to be doing OK without our club and SISU.

Doing OK means what exactly? Double turnover and reduced profits is hardly promising is it? So you don't believe the council when they stated that the price offered by the club was over the Higgs shares true value in an open market?

Who would buy the shares at that value?

Its abusrd to argue the sum invested was not high risk.

 

[Astute]

That sounds like madness to me as well as risky. No wonder we were on the road to ruin when we moved to the Ricoh.

Are we blaming the massive wage bill that was already in place before our club moved on moving to the Ricoh? And the rent we were paying at HR was the same as for the Ricoh.

But yes all the fault of moving to the Ricoh

 

[Astute]

Doing OK means what exactly? Double turnover and reduced profits is hardly promising is it? So you don't believe the council when they stated that the price offered by the club was over the Higgs shares true value in an open market?

Who would buy the shares at that value?

Its abusrd to argue the sum invested was not high risk.

They seem to be making a profit. Not seen anything to make me think otherwise. Whereas our club is losing millions a year. But shall we keep on having a dig at ACL/CCC/Higgs for being a risky investment?

 

[torchomatic]

1. Massive wage bill? Yep, paying players we couldn't afford.
2. Rent same as last year at HR? Yep, because Richardson had sold it to developers and had to rent it back. What about the 105 years before that last season. Do you want to comment on that?

Are we blaming the massive wage bill that was already in place before our club moved on moving to the Ricoh? And the rent we were paying at HR was the same as for the Ricoh.

But yes all the fault of moving to the Ricoh

 

[Grendel]

Are we blaming the massive wage bill that was already in place before our club moved on moving to the Ricoh? And the rent we were paying at HR was the same as for the Ricoh.

But yes all the fault of moving to the Ricoh

What was the wage bill and how did it compare to other clubs in the league - an astonishing attempt at Wumming

Nice to see you believing the rent was fair and you'd rather hit the wage bill on the pitch

The "rent" at Highfield Road was really Equity release -- don't get suckered in by PWKH all the time.

 

[Grendel]

They seem to be making a profit. Not seen anything to make me think otherwise. Whereas our club is losing millions a year. But shall we keep on having a dig at ACL/CCC/Higgs for being a risky investment?

Would you pay £6.5 million for the shares

 

[chiefdave]

The suggestion is that it is "risky" to invest in a project whose success and valuation relied wholly on a football club that was hugely in debt and was faced with a business model that required 22,500 paying adults every week merely to break even.

The season before SISU took over our average attendance was 21,301. How much would the wage bill have had to be reduced to break even? Not a great deal I would imagine.

When SISU took over they did recognise that we had a relatively large squad and too many older players on big wages and worked to resolve that. If things on the pitch hadn't gone downhill after the takeover there has to be a fair chance crowds would have stayed the same or even grown. Would we be where we are now if that had happened?

 

[martcov]

Would you pay £6.5 million for the shares

I would if I had CCFC. Then bring CCFC home and increase my revenue. Renegotiate the rent from an Insider position. Get on the next plane to Salzburg with Ann Lucas and try and Talk Red Bull into joining us as Sponsor and Joint Owner. Get Ricoh either to use their naming rights option or cancel it so Red Bull or another Big Name can take it over. Recruit someone new to market the Arena or bring in a major Events company. I wouldn't be sitting with my soccer club in Northampton.

 

[torchomatic]

Wow, it sounds so simple it could almost be total fiction.

I would if I had CCFC. Then bring CCFC home and increase my revenue. Renegotiate the rent from an Insider position. Get on the next plane to Salzburg with Ann Lucas and try and Talk Red Bull into joining us as Sponsor and Joint Owner. Get Ricoh either to use their naming rights option or cancel it so Red Bull or another Big Name can take it over. Recruit someone new to market the Arena or bring in a major Events company. I wouldn't be sitting with my soccer club in Northampton.

 

[Grendel]

I would if I had CCFC. Then bring CCFC home and increase my revenue. Renegotiate the rent from an Insider position. Get on the next plane to Salzburg with Ann Lucas and try and Talk Red Bull into joining us as Sponsor and Joint Owner. Get Ricoh either to use their naming rights option or cancel it so Red Bull or another Big Name can take it over. Recruit someone new to market the Arena or bring in a major Events company. I wouldn't be sitting with my soccer club in Northampton.

The image of Mucas and red bull is too much. She croaking to the Red Bull board "lets make Coventry great"

Christ.

 

[martcov]

Wow, it sounds so simple it could almost be total fiction.

Have you got a better idea? RB Leipzig just promoted to the 2. Bundesliga. Came from 5. or 6. league. Red Bull ( Football ) is in Salzburg, Leipzig and New York. Not yet England. We look like rotting away in Northampton. Sorry if I Dream of a way out and upwards. Comes with being a fan..

 

[martcov]

Well there doesn't seem to be any great iniative coming from SISU. They just run around courts with an army of lawyers chasing some obscure JR decision against a provincial city council. Sorry for being a frustrated city fan.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The last two are the easy ones - CCFC needed the £6.5m to save them from going under, and the charity gave them the money to help them out. The valuation was presumably agreed between the two parties, which of course is how values for things are typically established, and there was a formula and option for CCFC to buy it back.

The 'risky purchase' here presumes that Higgs were taking a gamble for their own benefit. There's no suggestion of that, is there?

It's a risky purchase because they paid £6.5m for something that was difficult to value.
The risk of course is that the outlay would never be recouped. Especially as it was temporary according to the KHs.

I'm dubious about the stopping the club going under line. It'd be interesting to see the accounts from that year.

 

[Grendel]

Well there doesn't seem to be any great iniative coming from SISU. They just run around courts with an army of lawyers chasing some obscure JR decision against a provincial city council. Sorry for being a frustrated city fan.

I'm afraid the council would block the big idea.

Red bull can't buy the ground its that dastardly unfettered lease.
They will not bring a new management company in as they are firmly wedded to ACL
You'd buy the shares get vetoed on policy decisions, receive no dividend, get half of a £7 million mortgage round your neck and still as the club be paying rent to ACL. Which pays no dividends.

Frustrating isn't it?

 

[Astute]

1. Massive wage bill? Yep, paying players we couldn't afford.
2. Rent same as last year at HR? Yep, because Richardson had sold it to developers and had to rent it back. What about the 105 years before that last season. Do you want to comment on that?

What sort of comment would you like? The one that I have made countless times before that we shouldn't have left HR. Shouldn't have sold HR to developers. Shouldn't have had plans above our income. Shouldn't have paid players much more than we could afford.

Are you now trying to say I have ever said it is all the fault of SISU? It wasn't just Richardson before them that got it so wrong. Can't remember the last one that got it right. But there must come a time where even yourself can see that we could have turned things around. Our wage bill now is so small to before. SISU could have accepted a rent of only 10% of what it was before. But we would have to make nearly 2m profit just to pay the interest on what they have loaned the club whilst pulling it apart. Not blaming that on Richardson. All this litigation is costing a fortune. Not the fault of Richardson either. SISU could have paid 5.5m for 50% of ACL. Blame Joy for being greedy on that not happening. Yes the 50% shouldn't have been sold. But to take our club forward it should have been purchased by now.

Will carry on if you like. Got lots more points to make. Like how did SISU manage to run up a debt of approx 50m......maybe much more in not many years when Richardson and co were so bad for a debt much lower over many more years whilst giving us much better football and at a much higher level where players expect much more in their pay. We were supposedly debt free

 

[Astute]

Would you pay £6.5 million for the shares

I would pay the 5.5m that SISU could have had them for.

 

[Grendel]

I would pay the 5.5m that SISU could have had them for.

Even though the other major shareholder thought it was over priced.

 

[martcov]

I'm afraid the council would block the big idea.

Red bull can't buy the ground its that dastardly unfettered lease.
They will not bring a new management company in as they are firmly wedded to ACL
You'd buy the shares get vetoed on policy decisions, receive no dividend, get half of a £7 million mortgage round your neck and still as the club be paying rent to ACL. Which pays no dividends.

Frustrating isn't it?

Yes. it is.

They and CCFC don't need to buy the ground.

CCC would have to at least listen before vetoing anything. They are subject to public scrutiny.

ACL will at some time be able to pay dividends - assuming it is in profit.

The club would be paying far less rent than previously.

I'll say this though, I would not be pursuing the JR, I would not be talking about a stadium, I would get CCFC back asap and I would be actively trying to get the club moving and finding sponsors or joint owners.

This stupid slagging off of the council and the JR are holding everything up. I cannot unterstand Joy. Her CV is great and she is supposed to be a hard-nosed business woman with balls of steel. She has become bogged down in a petty personal battle with the council. Bringing reems of illustrations and files into a court and again being told that it is irrelevant.... she cannot be thinking straight.

The council are by nature slow in decision making and concillors are not elected on their intelligence quota. I can see her getting pissed off, but she should be above that.

 

[Astute]

It's a risky purchase because they paid £6.5m for something that was difficult to value.
The risk of course is that the outlay would never be recouped. Especially as it was temporary according to the KHs.

They seem to have done it more for the football club than for an investment. But with the way SISU have treated them can you give a reason they should let SISU get it at a reduced rate now?

Would have been a better purchase for SISU than wasting money on litigation and moving our club to Northampton. But they were being greedy and wanted everything. Looks to have badly backfired on Joy. And whilst all this shit is going on it is our club and us supporters that are left to suffer.

 

[torchomatic]

Apart from when discussing £14M loans.

They are subject to public scrutiny.

 

[Grendel]

They seem to have done it more for the football club than for an investment. But with the way SISU have treated them can you give a reason they should let SISU get it at a reduced rate now?

Would have been a better purchase for SISU than wasting money on litigation and moving our club to Northampton. But they were being greedy and wanted everything. Looks to have badly backfired on Joy. And whilst all this shit is going on it is our club and us supporters that are left to suffer.

The purchase is worthless. It gives the football club what exactly?

 

[Grendel]

Apart from when discussing £14M loans.

Minor detail - no minutes required.

 

[sky blue john]

I would pay the 5.5m that SISU could have had them for.

Another 10 million soon in the coffers for naming rights 5.5million is a snip......

 

[Astute]

Even though the other major shareholder thought it was over priced.

Said by one person, and I am yet to see proof on that, but you keep saying that it was the major shareholder. He wasn't the shareholder.

 

[Astute]

Another 10 million soon in the coffers for naming rights 5.5million is a snip......

Could be less because of the game Joy is playing, but will certainly make a massive dent in the loan.

 

[martcov]

Minor detail - no minutes required.

No, on video

 

[Grendel]

Said by one person, and I am yet to see proof on that, but you keep saying that it was the major shareholder. He wasn't the shareholder.

Its worth nothing - it gives the club nothing yet you still drone on. What does it give you? What's the benefit?

 

[Grendel]

Could be less because of the game Joy is playing, but will certainly make a massive dent in the loan.

You are even liaising with sky blue John as if he is a rational thinking adult. What are you doing?

 

[henry the wasp]

So we'd be able to keep our badge/kit/name if red bull came in?

sorry, question for martcov.