SISU and money aside...what's wrong here? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paxman II
- Start date
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
I think what's wrong here, strictly speaking, is the idea that we have a squad comparable with the rest of those in the division...
BenInTurin
Facebook User
I second this!
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
What utter rubbish, the squad is very weak indeed.
georgehudson
Well-Known Member
sisu and money aside
with the greatest respect the opening phrase of 'sisu & money aside' says it all,
i would challenge any business to prosper when the investment / expenditure were to be 'slashed' so as to render it an unmarketable proposition,
prudence yes,
economic suicide no,
what, i wonder is the 'sisu' endgame ?
with the greatest respect the opening phrase of 'sisu & money aside' says it all,
i would challenge any business to prosper when the investment / expenditure were to be 'slashed' so as to render it an unmarketable proposition,
prudence yes,
economic suicide no,
what, i wonder is the 'sisu' endgame ?
Colonel Mustard
New Member
What positions would you say lack Championship quality?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Most.
We are also having to play players with injuries at timrs as we have no cover.
We'll_live_and_die
Moderator
Many also predicted that we would be shit this year. I think that we were second favourites for the drop before a ball had been kicked. This tells me that our squad is not as strong as everyone else's
Colonel Mustard
New Member
Okay, but which positions?
We'll_live_and_die
Moderator
Gaolkeeper, Left Back, Right Back, Left Wing, Right Wing, Attacking Midfielder and finally 1 of 2 striking positions.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Sorry but this team has to be better than 2 wins, just because we are where we are does not mean this team is not good enough.
Last year under AB this/last years team was flying and yet ended up just avoiding relegation so to me last years team was good enough as is this team to be achieving better.
Weswood gone fair enough but he has been replaced maybe not as good but then when there is so much pressure on the back line goals are going to be conceded and as most say on here we are only losing by 1 goal, so murphy can't be that bad.
Turner never played anyway.
Gunna most were not rating him anyway.
King we were lucky to have him and things did start to go down hil;l not long after his arrival, so did he break the squad's unity?
I thing this team is strong enough to survive this league although I doubt very much it will.
Last year under AB this/last years team was flying and yet ended up just avoiding relegation so to me last years team was good enough as is this team to be achieving better.
Weswood gone fair enough but he has been replaced maybe not as good but then when there is so much pressure on the back line goals are going to be conceded and as most say on here we are only losing by 1 goal, so murphy can't be that bad.
Turner never played anyway.
Gunna most were not rating him anyway.
King we were lucky to have him and things did start to go down hil;l not long after his arrival, so did he break the squad's unity?
I thing this team is strong enough to survive this league although I doubt very much it will.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
The midfield is the weakest part, too young, no real fighters. They are good in flashes & then turn off, look at the last goal, was it conor who followed the goalscorer in, TOO late to stop him getting his shot away, that is the sort of thing that happens. The older players, Sheff, Bell, Baker are not performing.. if they were they would all be first choices...
Defence is pourus, Cyrus loses stamina late on. But in general not too far off the pace, after all that was the area we lost least players from. Murphy is not a patch on Westwood (proving himself in Prem now), who I think saved us 10 points every season he was here!
Attack, well how many goals? Juke is good at this level, will do well next year, but he won't be here. Platt is a mid 30's journeyman, OK for occasional sub but not good enough to start, ROD can't hack it in the Championship, Cody has misfired so far, but I reckon he could come good (prob. next season), so lay off him please. Freddy lost interest in the summer..
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Sterling Archer
Well-Known Member
Lets look at the squad in a bit more detail, taking into account we finished 18th last season.
Goalkeeper - Westwood replaced by Murphy. Westwood is a Prem standard keeper who none of us realised how good he actually was until he left. I'd be willing to say in his time here Westwood used to save us about 10 points a season all on his own. Murphy is an average keeper at this level and this has seen us lose more points than we would've if Westwood was still here.
Defence - The only area which hasn't really changed that much bar losing Ben Turner (who was only available in the first 14 games, although we did amass a decent points total when he was here). Wood and McPake have suffered with injuries so far meaning we have had to use Christie and push Keogh into the centre. Where Keogh's best position is, is up for debate, I however think he is better than a RB. Christie has done well and we have bare in mind that its his first year in senior football, however a couple of errors defensively from Christie at RB have cost us whereas maybe they wouldn't have happened if Keogh had been there. I also feel Cranie needs what I like to describe as a "big meat head" alongside him. A Richard Wood/Ben Turner style no nonsense defender. At left back Hussey continues to improve but looks a bit suspect defensively like Christie.
Midfield - Due to a lack of numbers we have again had to throw in youngsters in the deep end when they wouldn't have expected so much exposure at this point of the season. I personally don't think either Bigirimana or Thomas are ready for the regularity of first team football that they have partaken in so far. You could also point to the form of Gary McSheffrey, who in my opinion has been woeful this season bar the Reading game when he scored. He looked very effective when Thorn took over in 2009-10, especially against Burnley and Portsmouth away. Even David Bell had some good games when Thorn took over and he has been non existant this season. You could even argue this with the likes of Clingan as well. However what we are desparately missing is a player in the same combative box to box style of Gunnarsson, who by all accounts is excelling at Cardiff. An addition to this we are missing his "bite" in Midfield as we barely seem to put in a tackle in the middle third of the pitch.
Striker - We now have to rely on Lukas Jutkiewicz for goals. A player who improved immensely when Marlon King started to hit form. Both played off each other excellently and the tireless running and creating space for King to exploit created goals. Now Jutkiewicz doesn't have a partner with the same goalscoring instincts and 'striker nous' of King, he has had to take the role of leading the line and being relied on for goals. No one else is chipping in. Play Jutkiewicz alongside a poacher and play the game he is suited for and he'll score about 10 a season but create alot more through his own play and off the ball movement. Clive Platt is the other striker, who despite his workrate and the odd couple of good games is out of his depth at this level. 5 goals in over 40 games for Coventry tells a story.
Squad depth - 12 players, 3 in means the squad is 9 senior players thin. This has a huge knock on effect when we have any injuries or suspensions.
We may have only lost 4 guaranteed starters but if you look at it the way I have set it out, you can see:
a) Why the players that left were so important to us;
b) Why bringing in 4 good players could improve the side a lot but whether that would be enough at this stage of the season to keep us up is questionable;
c) Why we are, where we are and rightfully so.
Goalkeeper - Westwood replaced by Murphy. Westwood is a Prem standard keeper who none of us realised how good he actually was until he left. I'd be willing to say in his time here Westwood used to save us about 10 points a season all on his own. Murphy is an average keeper at this level and this has seen us lose more points than we would've if Westwood was still here.
Defence - The only area which hasn't really changed that much bar losing Ben Turner (who was only available in the first 14 games, although we did amass a decent points total when he was here). Wood and McPake have suffered with injuries so far meaning we have had to use Christie and push Keogh into the centre. Where Keogh's best position is, is up for debate, I however think he is better than a RB. Christie has done well and we have bare in mind that its his first year in senior football, however a couple of errors defensively from Christie at RB have cost us whereas maybe they wouldn't have happened if Keogh had been there. I also feel Cranie needs what I like to describe as a "big meat head" alongside him. A Richard Wood/Ben Turner style no nonsense defender. At left back Hussey continues to improve but looks a bit suspect defensively like Christie.
Midfield - Due to a lack of numbers we have again had to throw in youngsters in the deep end when they wouldn't have expected so much exposure at this point of the season. I personally don't think either Bigirimana or Thomas are ready for the regularity of first team football that they have partaken in so far. You could also point to the form of Gary McSheffrey, who in my opinion has been woeful this season bar the Reading game when he scored. He looked very effective when Thorn took over in 2009-10, especially against Burnley and Portsmouth away. Even David Bell had some good games when Thorn took over and he has been non existant this season. You could even argue this with the likes of Clingan as well. However what we are desparately missing is a player in the same combative box to box style of Gunnarsson, who by all accounts is excelling at Cardiff. An addition to this we are missing his "bite" in Midfield as we barely seem to put in a tackle in the middle third of the pitch.
Striker - We now have to rely on Lukas Jutkiewicz for goals. A player who improved immensely when Marlon King started to hit form. Both played off each other excellently and the tireless running and creating space for King to exploit created goals. Now Jutkiewicz doesn't have a partner with the same goalscoring instincts and 'striker nous' of King, he has had to take the role of leading the line and being relied on for goals. No one else is chipping in. Play Jutkiewicz alongside a poacher and play the game he is suited for and he'll score about 10 a season but create alot more through his own play and off the ball movement. Clive Platt is the other striker, who despite his workrate and the odd couple of good games is out of his depth at this level. 5 goals in over 40 games for Coventry tells a story.
Squad depth - 12 players, 3 in means the squad is 9 senior players thin. This has a huge knock on effect when we have any injuries or suspensions.
We may have only lost 4 guaranteed starters but if you look at it the way I have set it out, you can see:
a) Why the players that left were so important to us;
b) Why bringing in 4 good players could improve the side a lot but whether that would be enough at this stage of the season to keep us up is questionable;
c) Why we are, where we are and rightfully so.
Stoppercurtis
New Member
Clearly the main issue is we just don't score anywhere near enough goals. If we had retained Marlon King we would perhaps be 16th or 17th in the table. There is also a problem with the depth of the squad. We just don't have enough quality to replace those injured.
Stopper
Stopper
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
Excellent, well argued post.
I've been very disappointed by Sheff and Bell this season after the way they played at the end of last. I think it's largely due to the loss of MK whose runs used to open up so many possibilities for the attacking midfielders. Unfortunately, this year we're a lot more static up front.
sky_blue_up_north
Well-Known Member
Very good accessment Tommy, any one who says we have good squad should read. Those blaming AT have blindfolds on IMO
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
So the team thats left is only good enough for 2 wins and 13 points after 22 games and this has absolutly nothing to do with AT.
So if we can only manage 2 wins and 13 points and possible losing players in January how can people even contumplate that we will be ok in division 1 play off push/ mid table we have to keep AT as swapping managers will not get us anywhere, we will be lucky not to get relegated again next year at this rate, these players can not put up a fight in this league what chance have they got if relegated and people want to keep AT, and not even hope and pray a new manager could turn this around.
So if we can only manage 2 wins and 13 points and possible losing players in January how can people even contumplate that we will be ok in division 1 play off push/ mid table we have to keep AT as swapping managers will not get us anywhere, we will be lucky not to get relegated again next year at this rate, these players can not put up a fight in this league what chance have they got if relegated and people want to keep AT, and not even hope and pray a new manager could turn this around.
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ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
ICHAN - of course it has something to do with AT and I for one am disappointed that he hasn't got more from the current squad. I was hoping he could develop a siege mentality but it appears he has failed to this, probably due to no real leaders among the players and an apparent big gulf between the established pro's and the kids. But what place do you think a good manager would have got us to? 18th? 10th? Playoffs? The squad is substandard, has been managed substandardly and is in the position its in because all round it hasn't been good enough. But the bottom line is that we have a substandard squad because of the mismanagement and excessive cost cutting by the board and owners - that is where the real blame lies - they gave us this squad, they gave us this manager, they gave us this current nightmare - they must go now. Join the protest and register your disgust before its too late.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
This squad is a relegation candidate squad I don't think many people disagree with that but it is still better than the 13 points we have gained so far.
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
So the team thats left is only good enough for 2 wins and 13 points after 22 games and this has absolutly nothing to do with AT.
.
Is that what they call putting words into peoples' mouths?
I'm sure it has "absolutely something" to do with everyone involved with the playing side of the club.
However, at the risk of being repetitive, last year we finished 18th. We only managed that because of the late run under AT - before AB went, I for one, had already resigned myself to relegation. We then lost Westie, King, Gunna and Turner. We've replaced Westie (as far as we could) and have brought in a striker who has so far been disappointing. We also lost another 5 or 6 squad players who might have been useful when injuries hit.
Before the season started, my view was that if we stayed up, AT would deserve major congratulations. I didn't however expect us to be so far behind everyone else and I think that some of his decisions have contributed to that.
However in my view the main issue is the way we are being run by the Board. I'm an accountant, so I'm perfectly happy with the notion of financial stability, but what we've got is cost cutting with no underlying plan. When we get comments from the Board (well our ex Board) congratulating themselves on moving us towards break-even, but saying that relegation would be a disaster, you really have to wonder what planet they're on. We will be relegated. The cutbacks that have been made have made that outcome a racing certainty, so if relegation was not factored into their plans you have to question their basic commercial competance.
Or to put it simply - do the Board have a plan (that doesn't involve fire sales in January and then departing asap) and if so can they plaese explain it to us.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
"last year we finished 18th." I keep hearing this and I may have even said it once or twice before we were absolutely cut adrift, but then I also keep hearing that Westwood, Turner, Gunnarson and King were one of the best backbone in the division and if we had kept them we would be a top 10 side. Just thinking you can't really have it both way's. People's arguments were we relatively poor with them in the side last year so therefore we would be even worse this year which makes sense but then it doesn't make sense to say if we had kept them we would be top 10, if that were so we would have finished top 10 last season when we did have them.
The only explanation is that with our squad last year 18th was a massive underachievement. I would say 13 points from 22 games this season is also a massive underachievement.
The only explanation is that with our squad last year 18th was a massive underachievement. I would say 13 points from 22 games this season is also a massive underachievement.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Asbyjan.
I have registered and joined the protest and fully support the sisu out campaign but having a family and having been made redundant living in spalding that is all I can do.
Where someone could get us I do not know, but fight for the club and as you put it siege mentality this I agree with as do I with your post I can not argue with that.
The so called established pro's should be leading by example and dragging the young lads through games kicking and screaming and leading from the front, but their not and something is going wrong as to why they are not.
Have they just become lazy knowing their place in the team is safe anyway no matter what, maybe, but someone should be kicking them up their arses as it's their reputation as a player they are playing for but more importantly as far fans are concerned OUR club, if this is the situation and it's not happening who's to blame?
I can take relegation although do not want to, I would expect there to be a siege mentality within the players and the staff who are responsible for getting the siege mentality into these set of players.
If the staff cannot get the team to have a fight for the club and your survival in this league mentality into the players (more so the experianced players) then they are not doing their job and so should take responsibility for not doing this, and face the consequences.
I have registered and joined the protest and fully support the sisu out campaign but having a family and having been made redundant living in spalding that is all I can do.
Where someone could get us I do not know, but fight for the club and as you put it siege mentality this I agree with as do I with your post I can not argue with that.
The so called established pro's should be leading by example and dragging the young lads through games kicking and screaming and leading from the front, but their not and something is going wrong as to why they are not.
Have they just become lazy knowing their place in the team is safe anyway no matter what, maybe, but someone should be kicking them up their arses as it's their reputation as a player they are playing for but more importantly as far fans are concerned OUR club, if this is the situation and it's not happening who's to blame?
I can take relegation although do not want to, I would expect there to be a siege mentality within the players and the staff who are responsible for getting the siege mentality into these set of players.
If the staff cannot get the team to have a fight for the club and your survival in this league mentality into the players (more so the experianced players) then they are not doing their job and so should take responsibility for not doing this, and face the consequences.
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
ICHAN - thanks your support is appreciated and I wish you the best of luck in finding a job - been there and I know how hard it is on the whole family. One classic example for me is Sheff. Now its no secret I think he's crap but at the end of last season under Thorn he was working hard, making runs, looking a goal threat - this season he has hardly broken sweat, spends whole games hiding. Not picking on him specifically as there are others just as bad but he is supposed to be a Cov fan and whilst I may not be blessed with his ability and fitness (anyone who met me at the meeting can testify to that lol) as a fan and a lover of CCFC I would run myself to a standstill whenever I pulled on that shirt and would be imploring all those around me to do the same.
Thorn was at Wimbledon when they had the Crazy Gang but there they had big personalities in Sanchez, Wise, Jones, Fash etc we seem devoid of these sorts of characters and are suffering for it.
Thorn was at Wimbledon when they had the Crazy Gang but there they had big personalities in Sanchez, Wise, Jones, Fash etc we seem devoid of these sorts of characters and are suffering for it.
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SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Well at least we would be competing to stay in this division.
Most of us thought it would be a relegation fight this season.
So far we are only achieving the relegation part.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Tommy no I am not putting words into people's mouth's people are saying it's not AT 's fault we are where we are that's all, if that was read wrong then I apologise.
As for sisu's plan anyones guess is as good as anyone else's who knows what they are upto?
I did put this awhile ago on my views about sisu.
They remind me of these people you see sometimes in films where they buy a company sell everything they can, run them into the ground and make profits of them which they appear to be/wanting to do.
Lets be honest with ourselves here they don't never did give a damn (maybe the first couple of months they did) about what coventry football club is about they just thought they would come in throw as little money in as they could get away with and hope/pray they got to the prem and sold on for a hugh fat profit.
Well it never worked out but instead of thinking ok if we spent another 2/3 million the second season to really strenghten the squad they decided right we need some money back and so sold some players.
Since then they have been trying to claw investers monies back anyway they could, and so reducing the strength of the squad, which in turn obviously (well obvious to anyone who knows anything about a team sport) reduced any chance of getting to where the big money is the prem and so they would not get there big fat pay cheque.
So were they ill advised in the first place? there fault because they should have looked into it themselves as well as being advised by RR.
If so and they know there is no way back for them now unless they spent millions (which we know they won't) they are hanging on and bleeding this club dry of any monies they can get and will sell anything they can to try and get anything back.
However in there short sightedness they are on a loseing battle, as they have to keep spending money to keep there investment alive or they lose everything.
But the longer they stay and sell there assets of any value and not replace them then there assets are/will become worthless and so they will never get there money back.
There short sighted outlook into the world of football has cost them and it's there fault for not taking the gamble in the early days of there takeover not ours, unfortunatly we the fans and our club are the long term sufferers of there messed up plan, not them, they may lose money but they will get this back over time, a lot shorter time than it will take our beloved club to recover.
As for sisu's plan anyones guess is as good as anyone else's who knows what they are upto?
I did put this awhile ago on my views about sisu.
They remind me of these people you see sometimes in films where they buy a company sell everything they can, run them into the ground and make profits of them which they appear to be/wanting to do.
Lets be honest with ourselves here they don't never did give a damn (maybe the first couple of months they did) about what coventry football club is about they just thought they would come in throw as little money in as they could get away with and hope/pray they got to the prem and sold on for a hugh fat profit.
Well it never worked out but instead of thinking ok if we spent another 2/3 million the second season to really strenghten the squad they decided right we need some money back and so sold some players.
Since then they have been trying to claw investers monies back anyway they could, and so reducing the strength of the squad, which in turn obviously (well obvious to anyone who knows anything about a team sport) reduced any chance of getting to where the big money is the prem and so they would not get there big fat pay cheque.
So were they ill advised in the first place? there fault because they should have looked into it themselves as well as being advised by RR.
If so and they know there is no way back for them now unless they spent millions (which we know they won't) they are hanging on and bleeding this club dry of any monies they can get and will sell anything they can to try and get anything back.
However in there short sightedness they are on a loseing battle, as they have to keep spending money to keep there investment alive or they lose everything.
But the longer they stay and sell there assets of any value and not replace them then there assets are/will become worthless and so they will never get there money back.
There short sighted outlook into the world of football has cost them and it's there fault for not taking the gamble in the early days of there takeover not ours, unfortunatly we the fans and our club are the long term sufferers of there messed up plan, not them, they may lose money but they will get this back over time, a lot shorter time than it will take our beloved club to recover.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Thank you ashbyjan for your support.
This is what I cannot understand 2 things.
As you say a local lad cov fan anyone in the same position would be dying for the club they support and where they come from.
The 2nd thing is a bigger mystery AT was part of the crazy gang and I honestly thought he would bring the Wimbledon ethos into the club and we would see a team like the crazy gang were, or was AT just a part of it but not one of the main crazy gang members I do not know and that is my big disappointment with this team go down but go down fighting for your lives and with pride so no one can say we as a team (manager and back room staff as well) did not give it our all, lets show we will not surrender.
I'mARealWizard
New Member
Thorn's a bit like Nick Clegg.
We all thought that he would be able to achieve more considering the very obvious obstacles.
We all thought that he would be able to achieve more considering the very obvious obstacles.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
So the team thats left is only good enough for 2 wins and 13 points after 22 games and this has absolutly nothing to do with AT.
So if we can only manage 2 wins and 13 points and possible losing players in January how can people even contumplate that we will be ok in division 1 play off push/ mid table we have to keep AT as swapping managers will not get us anywhere, we will be lucky not to get relegated again next year at this rate, these players can not put up a fight in this league what chance have they got if relegated and people want to keep AT, and not even hope and pray a new manager could turn this around.
This initial statement puzzles me. Not one person on here has said that our ratio has 'absolutely nothing to do with Thorn'. The discussion was not about Thorn at all; it was whether our squad, player for player, is where it deserves to be in the League. Is it so difficult to grasp that there are a myriad of reasons we are where we are...
1) lack of investment from the Board (and the concomitant lack of strength in depth, sale of best players and trimming of wage bill, over reliance on kids, dissatisfaction from the fans and effect on atmosphere, etc.)
2) experienced professional players not being up to scratch or injured (e.g. McSheffrey, Baker, Bell, arguably Clingan, McPake)
3) tactical naivety from a rookie manager (this does not surface each and every week, merely on occasion, IMO)
If it was worthwhile rating these causative factors, I would put them in the above order. It is not. If it was worthwhile shouting 'Thorn out' from the rooftops, I may consider it. It is not. He has not done nearly as much wrong as posited by some, our incumbent board have demonstrated time and time again they are unwilling to invest and we will not hire someone else.
This discussion seemed to me to be about whether our first team from 1 - 11 should be in the relegation zone. I'm afraid to say they should be. Blaming Thorn and advocating his sacking with no alternative (the only viable ones I've seen are Carsley and Gregor Rioch... our board won't spend money on three month player loans, which manager are they going to dip into their deep pockets for?) is wholly beside the point.
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I guess what I was trying to say was that whilst I've been disappointed with what AT has got out of the squad this year (having been very pleasantly surprised by what he got out of a better squad last year), I think that it's a secondary issue compared to what the Board are doing.
I'm afraid that I've now reached the point where I believe that if we started to do better (under AT or anyone else) any players that were "shining" in our new better run of form, would soon be sold on to the first interested party.
I really can't see us advancing under our present ownership - unless they have a major change of policy.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Ok divedive a simple answer no I do not think we should be in the bottom 3.
How many points have been lost when we were in a position to win or draw.
These losses when we should have won or drawn would have added to confidance etc but this is all if's and buts we are where we are and nothing can be done about that the league does not lie and we are bottom and on a losing streak that I can not see an and to.
How many points have been lost when we were in a position to win or draw.
These losses when we should have won or drawn would have added to confidance etc but this is all if's and buts we are where we are and nothing can be done about that the league does not lie and we are bottom and on a losing streak that I can not see an and to.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
Without sky blue tinted specs, which three Championship teams have a worse squad than us? There are a few there or thereabouts, but are there three teams you can see which are worse than us (player for player, excluding reputation, fan base, etc.)? Are the points lost when we were in the lead exclusively Thorn's fault? The buck can indeed stop with the manager in lots of respects, but does this point take anything away from mine? That being; we are where we are because of a more general demise in all things CCFC, including (but not to a majority extent) some tactical errors and general naivety from the manager. We are lower than we have ever been in my lifetime, I can't see us surviving, I don't want to go down, Thorn is not immune from criticism... But the majority shareholders in our downfall (for whatever relevance this actually has) are our majority shareholders.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Tommy without doubt any player that shows any promise will be sold as they want any money back they can get their hands on and as I put, their shortsigtedness has cost them it is their fault but we are paying for it as a club and as a group of fans/suppoters of OUR club.
They will be gone as will AT in the end, but it is us fans who will have to carry on supporting the mess they leave behind them for years to come, no matter where we end up they will be gone one day , lets all hope it's sooner rather than later
They will be gone as will AT in the end, but it is us fans who will have to carry on supporting the mess they leave behind them for years to come, no matter where we end up they will be gone one day , lets all hope it's sooner rather than later
