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Should Mark Robins be sacked? (6 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mark82
  • Start date Feb 13, 2018
Forums New posts

Should Mark Robins be sacked?

  • Yes, sack him now.

    Votes: 12 6.8%
  • No, not yet.

    Votes: 164 93.2%

  • Total voters
    176
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B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #281
Irish Sky Blue said:
Your opening sentence here I think adds weight as to why finally we should stick by someone. As soon as things don’t go to Plan the manager is under pressure and inevitably gets the chop. You are obviously hoping that someone new comes in, it all goes great from the start and we are on a constant upward tradjectory. Any dip and presumably we would be onto the next manager. Why have none of the managers we have had over the past few years been able to do this? They have all had success elsewhere ( okay Thorne and Venus excepted).
I really liked Tony Mowbray but even I would admit that after the Armstrong Murphy season it was virtually start all over again time, particularly with the loss of Fleck. This time it is a little different. For whatever reason, he was allowed to give out two year contracts this time. Therefore hopefully, promoted or not, it will be a case of fine tuning rather than a complete overhaul. Yes,we might be cherry picked from further up the food chain but at least if someone like McNulty goes, we get a fee which he would hopefully be allowed to reinvest.
There are lots of things I haven’t enjoyed about Robin’s teams this season; his switch from an apparent attacking philosophy to a defensive one, the turgid nature of much of the football particularly in the first half of games, the infuriating policy of throw ins or free kicks in the opponents half which are sent back towards our own goal and which nine times out of ten result in a long punt from Burge. For all of this I still think Robin’s is our best hope and promotion or not I think we should stick with him.
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Not true-bad form is inevitable at one point or another, the question is how does the manager react. It was clear that Mowbray had no clue how and we went from almost guaranteed play off contention to mid table. Same for Pressley, he worked his socks off but couldn't turn around a nosedive in form. Robins looks like he could go the same way but he may yet turn it around.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #282
I still don't get what he meant by "League 2'ing" Brighton?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #283
oucho said:
I have faith that he knows the way he wants to play and he will continue to build up the squad he wants. You can't turn a club round in 12 months, you need years. I'd allow him 2-3 "failure" seasons before really putting him on the clock. Let's face it, the method of allowing a manager 18 months to sink or swim has failed over the years so we won't see a quick turnaround by anyone. He needs time to learn, and sometimes you can only do that by failing initially.
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He isn't a rookie manager though is he. The players he has, when fully fit, are suited to getting us out of this division. The question is why is he persisting with resoundingly negative approaches to games even when we go a goal down. Can he at least show the willingness to adapt his approach to what's going on on the pitch, as Gareth Ainsworth has done to good effect lately?

I am not demanding or expecting perfection, just a bit of reflection from the manager.
 
Reactions: Otis
R

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #284
Brighton Sky Blue said:
He isn't a rookie manager though is he. The players he has, when fully fit, are suited to getting us out of this division. The question is why is he persisting with resoundingly negative approaches to games even when we go a goal down. Can he at least show the willingness to adapt his approach to what's going on on the pitch, as Gareth Ainsworth has done to good effect lately?

I am not demanding or expecting perfection, just a bit of reflection from the manager.
Click to expand...
His system of play you refer to is something the pro MR brigade don’t mention. It’s negative and doesn’t attract new support in fact it’s driving people away against Accrington for example with all the kids watching we had one shot, a free kick on target it’s no better than what the Andy Thorne, Mark Venus or Russell Slade dished up. He has to change or go.
 
Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #285
rupert_bear said:
His system of play you refer to is something the pro MR brigade don’t mention. It’s negative and doesn’t attract new support in fact it’s driving people away against Accrington for example with all the kids watching we had one shot, a free kick on target it’s no better than what the Andy Thorne, Mark Venus or Russell Slade dished up. He has to change or go.
Click to expand...

The worst home performance this season I would argue.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #286
Esoterica said:
I think a lot of that post is fanciful rhetoric. Do you really not expect crowds to decrease the longer we're here? A few seasons in Div 4, flirting with the play offs without promotion, after 50 years of nothing will put off more than it encourages back in my opinion. People just won't see that as a success for this club, our customers are burnt out. Average crowds closer to 6k than 8k will put us firmly back in the pack. And that will undermine everything you've written above.
How many seasons in div 4 would you expect us to maintain the expense associated with our category of academy too? The U23s, the academy, the feeder system, none of it needs rebuilding, it's all a success now. So what are you left with? Re-building of the squad, back-room systems, staff, players and systems. All first team related. 2 summer transfer windows ought to be enough to make us very competitive on the pitch at this level. I think that's why so many people are prepared to give him the summer, most people get that (see the poll results). Robins needs to show he's learned some lessons about this division though bceause if at that end of next season that one person's vision is still playing with no central midfielders and scraping 1-0s then we may well have wasted the only seasons where we are genuinely a big club in this division.
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No i genuinely do not think it fanciful that staying down would be a disaster if we are competitive. 18 months is NOT long enough to judge a manager. Give him 3 years with license to fail for 2 of those. If he is still making the mistakes after 3 years then enough will be enough. It's not a mad scramble to get out of this league at all costs, we need a proper rebuild even if it takes time.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #287
oucho said:
No i genuinely do not think it fanciful that staying down would be a disaster if we are competitive. 18 months is NOT long enough to judge a manager. Give him 3 years with license to fail for 2 of those. If he is still making the mistakes after 3 years then enough will be enough. It's not a mad scramble to get out of this league at all costs, we need a proper rebuild even if it takes time.
Click to expand...

Most of the comments I can see are judging him on a match by match basis or even during games on how he fails to reacts to things.

While managers can be given 3 years to build a squad, it still doesn't get away from the fact that he doesn't really address issues we have on the pitch during a game until it's too late.
 
Reactions: thekidfromstrettoncamp

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #288
Brighton Sky Blue said:
The players he has, when fully fit, are suited to getting us out of this division.
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I know all teams pick up injuries but I think some people conveniently ignore the impact of losing both Jones and Andreu.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #289
chiefdave said:
I know all teams pick up injuries but I think some people conveniently ignore the impact of losing both Jones and Andreu.
Click to expand...

Those injuries in my view take us from auto contenders to play off contenders. The remaining players are still entirely capable of a top 7 finish.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #290
chiefdave said:
I know all teams pick up injuries but I think some people conveniently ignore the impact of losing both Jones and Andreu.
Click to expand...
Agree, but they both happened early on, so he has had time to address that and besides, though I agree Jones was a massive player for us, we really have no idea if the same was going to be the case with Andreu.

Just 5 games for us wasn't it and I'm sure subbed in a couple.
 

Esoterica

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #291
oucho said:
No i genuinely do not think it fanciful that staying down would be a disaster if we are competitive. 18 months is NOT long enough to judge a manager. Give him 3 years with license to fail for 2 of those. If he is still making the mistakes after 3 years then enough will be enough. It's not a mad scramble to get out of this league at all costs, we need a proper rebuild even if it takes time.
Click to expand...
I think it's an admirable approach if you're putting in a structure for a club to succeed beyond its means, for it to perform above its natural level. But we are cleary below ours. You make it sound like all that rebuilding is a linear route to success on the pitch but we are not losing to teams with better players.
What's your logic that crowds won't further diminish and what is it about our feeder system, academy and U23s that you think needs rebuilding?
 

Esoterica

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #292
Otis said:
Agree, but they both happened early on, so he has had time to address that and besides, though I agree Jones was a massive player for us, we really have no idea if the same was going to be the case with Andreu.

Just 5 games for us wasn't it and I'm sure subbed in a couple.
Click to expand...
Signed after the season had already started and injured on his 2nd league start. It's not like we based our whole season around him and everything we'd worked on pre-season suddenly went out the window. A loss for sure but not irrecoverable.
 
Reactions: mark82 and Otis
R

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #293
The thing. Otis with Andreu which doesn’t get mentioned is you are correct he played in 5 games was sub or subbed in a couple unfortunately got injured but the player who could have stepped in was Ben Stevenson but hardly got a game but seems he was good enough to attract Premiership bound Wolves to pay over half a million quid for him. He must be one of the only fourth division reserve footballers to attract such a fee !!
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #294
Esoterica said:
I think it's an admirable approach if you're putting in a structure for a club to succeed beyond its means, for it to perform above its natural level. But we are cleary below ours. You make it sound like all that rebuilding is a linear route to success on the pitch but we are not losing to teams with better players.
What's your logic that crowds won't further diminish and what is it about our feeder system, academy and U23s that you think needs rebuilding?
Click to expand...
Unless we have a great finish to this season and go really close, I would say it's an odds on certainty that crowds will go down next season.

We've already had loads of fans this season moan about the low quality of the football in this division.

To maintain this current level of ST uptake we either need to finish really strongly this season, or sign some inspiring players that get fans excited in the summer.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #295
Nick said:
Most of the comments I can see are judging him on a match by match basis or even during games on how he fails to reacts to things. While managers can be given 3 years to build a squad, it still doesn't get away from the fact that he doesn't really address issues we have on the pitch during a game until it's too late.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% but it's not just a squad that has to develop - he isn't going to get everything right and needs to be given time to learn his trade. He's not the finished article as a manager despite his experience at various clubs. I share yoru frustration when we seem so defensive when we need to win, but he may well be trying to instill a great ideal into the squad. He may well have his reasons which could bear fruit if he is given much longer. He is trying an approach this season and if overall it doesn't work then he's going to change next time - yes it is frustrating but he is within his rights to stick with a way of playing and not change/react to circumstances.

Esoterica said:
I think it's an admirable approach if you're putting in a structure for a club to succeed beyond its means, for it to perform above its natural level. But we are cleary below ours. You make it sound like all that rebuilding is a linear route to success on the pitch but we are not losing to teams with better players.
What's your logic that crowds won't further diminish and what is it about our feeder system, academy and U23s that you think needs rebuilding?
Click to expand...

Crowds have only seemed to drop when we have performed worse per season i.e. when we've struggled more than the year before, the average gate drops a bit. If we do as well next season as this then I'd expect gates to be about the same level. There's a direct correlation between league performances and attendance.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #296
oucho said:
I agree 100% but it's not just a squad that has to develop - he isn't going to get everything right and needs to be given time to learn his trade. He's not the finished article as a manager despite his experience at various clubs. I share yoru frustration when we seem so defensive when we need to win, but he may well be trying to instill a great ideal into the squad. He may well have his reasons which could bear fruit if he is given much longer. He is trying an approach this season and if overall it doesn't work then he's going to change next time - yes it is frustrating but he is within his rights to stick with a way of playing and not change/react to circumstances.



Crowds have only seemed to drop when we have performed worse per season i.e. when we've struggled more than the year before, the average gate drops a bit. If we do as well next season as this then I'd expect gates to be about the same level. There's a direct correlation between league performances and attendance.
Click to expand...
Obviously if we do well attendances will rise. I was actual meant about the uptake in ST's. That will be lower I think and therefore will have an affect on the quality of player we can bring in.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #297
Otis said:
Obviously if we do well attendances will rise. I was actual meant about the uptake in ST's. That will be lower I think and therefore will have an affect on the quality of player we can bring in.
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The bigger debate is, should MR be sacked if we finish 8th this season and then 8th next season? Obviously not, IMO. If we finish 20th in either season, that's a very different matter but provided we're competitive I am happy to see him given the sort of time that Coleman was given, ideally longer. Sooner or later you need to try the alternative to the "let's not sack the manager in a panic after a bad run" approach; let's face it, that approach hasn't really worked out for us over the years....
 
Reactions: better days

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #298
oucho said:
The bigger debate is, should MR be sacked if we finish 8th this season and then 8th next season? Obviously not, IMO. If we finish 20th in either season, that's a very different matter but provided we're competitive I am happy to see him given the sort of time that Coleman was given, ideally longer. Sooner or later you need to try the alternative to the "let's not sack the manager in a panic after a bad run" approach; let's face it, that approach hasn't really worked out for us over the years....
Click to expand...

If we finish 8th next season then questions will need to be asked.

That's not a bad run, that's failure for 2 seasons.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #299
Nick said:
If we finish 8th next season then questions will need to be asked.

That's not a bad run, that's failure for 2 seasons.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call that failure, I'd call that "being reasonably competitive". Even if I agreed with your definition of "failure", I wouldn't sack someone for narrowly (as implied by 8th place) missing the play-offs twice in a row. I'd give the guy two free seasons with no expectations, "a license to fail" you might call it. What's the harm that can be done?
 
R

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #300
Can’t agree that MR is inexperienced he’s been a manager at 5 different clubs spanning about 8 years, not lasted much more than 2 years anywhere how much experience do you need ?
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #301
oucho said:
I wouldn't call that failure, I'd call that "being reasonably competitive". Even if I agreed with your definition of "failure", I wouldn't sack someone for narrowly (as implied by 8th place) missing the play-offs twice in a row. I'd give the guy two free seasons with no expectations, "a license to fail" you might call it. What's the harm that can be done?
Click to expand...
Fine margins isn't it. Pipped at the post in 8th is quite a bit different from 7 points adrift in 8th.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #302
Brighton Sky Blue said:
He isn't a rookie manager though is he. The players he has, when fully fit, are suited to getting us out of this division. The question is why is he persisting with resoundingly negative approaches to games even when we go a goal down. Can he at least show the willingness to adapt his approach to what's going on on the pitch, as Gareth Ainsworth has done to good effect lately?

I am not demanding or expecting perfection, just a bit of reflection from the manager.
Click to expand...

I do not find his stats. (below) impressive. But I do think he needs to be given next season to prove himself even if the club fails to make the play-offs this season.

However if the club is still in this division next season and we loose form and are not in the play-off spots at this time next season it is absolutely time for him to go.

 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #303
rupert_bear said:
Can’t agree that MR is inexperienced he’s been a manager at 5 different clubs spanning about 8 years, not lasted much more than 2 years anywhere how much experience do you need ?
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Arguably a lot more. I have been in my job for 10.5 years but I am still learning and have a lot to learn. At times I struggled but was supported rather than fired for under-performance. That made me a better employee and more valuable one than if I'd been fired and they'd had to train someone else from scratch. The business benefitted from that in the long run.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #304
Captain Dart said:
I do not find his stats. (below) impressive. But I do think he needs to be given next season to prove himself even if the club fails to make the play-offs this season.

However if the club is still in this division next season and we loose form and are not in the play-off spots at this time next season it is absolutely time for him to go.

View attachment 9108
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Sorry Captain but if you don't find those stats impressive then you won't get much better. Overall win% of 48% over two spells is brilliant. Even 47% this season will be very hard to beat if we recruit someone else. Just look at our other managers' records (ranked from highest win % to lowest) for more details:

 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #305
Captain Dart said:
I do not find his stats. (below) impressive. But I do think he needs to be given next season to prove himself even if the club fails to make the play-offs this season.

However if the club is still in this division next season and we loose form and are not in the play-off spots at this time next season it is absolutely time for him to go.

View attachment 9108
Click to expand...

For that to happen he has to show some evidence of wanting to try other approaches or mix things up. He attributes defeats at the moment to almost anything other than the way he sets up the team, which tells me he doesn't see that as an issue. Which means we will continue setting up the same way, keep losing 1 or 2-0 and wonder why it's going tits up.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #306
oucho said:
Sorry Captain but if you don't find those stats impressive then you won't get much better. Overall win% of 48% over two spells is brilliant. Even 47% this season will be very hard to beat if we recruit someone else. Just look at our other managers' records (ranked from highest win % to lowest) for more details:

View attachment 9109
Click to expand...

Managing us in the 4th division he sodding well should be at 47% or higher.
 
Reactions: mark82

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #307
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Managing us in the 4th division he sodding well should be at 47% or higher.
Click to expand...
I just don't see how he can be viewed as under-performing. Yes we've lost 3 in a row in the league but all teams go through bad patches. We've got no divine right to be top of the league but he's worked hard to ensure we're in contention and will in the play-off mix. It's not critical / urgent that we go up this season - just let the bloke do his job.
 
Reactions: JWC

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #308
oucho said:
Sorry Captain but if you don't find those stats impressive then you won't get much better. Overall win% of 48% over two spells is brilliant. Even 47% this season will be very hard to beat if we recruit someone else. Just look at our other managers' records (ranked from highest win % to lowest) for more details:

View attachment 9109
Click to expand...
You are looking at the wrong managers. Look at genuinely successful managers in their promotion seasons, those are the stats needed.

PS I specifically said he needs at least half next season even if he fails to get promotion this. I do not advocate a knee jerk sacking.
 

Esoterica

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #309
oucho said:
Arguably a lot more. I have been in my job for 10.5 years but I am still learning and have a lot to learn. At times I struggled but was supported rather than fired for under-performance. That made me a better employee and more valuable one than if I'd been fired and they'd had to train someone else from scratch. The business benefitted from that in the long run.
Click to expand...
Were you doing the exact same role for that 10.5 years where you were the leader of a team of your own selection in a business that would likely have to downsize if you didn't achieve your targets? That's where we'll be at the end of next season.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #310
Captain Dart said:
You are looking at the wrong managers. Look at genuinely successful managers in their promotion seasons, those are the stats needed.

PS I specifically said he needs at least half next season even if he fails to get promotion this. I do not advocate a knee jerk sacking.
Click to expand...
OK fair enough but I do think that a relevant question would be "given CCFC's history of manager recruitment, are we likely to get a manager with a higher win% than MR?"
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #311
Esoterica said:
Were you doing the exact same role for that 10.5 years where you were the leader of a team of your own selection in a business that would likely have to downsize if you didn't achieve your targets? That's where we'll be at the end of next season.
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I don't agree with that and haven't seen any evidence to back it up.

And yes my role has been similar during this time although as the years have gone on I have acquired extra responsibilities. I wouldn't be where I am today without that backing and arguably they wouldn't be able to recruit someone now with my experience, so any new hire would be less effective. We just got taken over and some staff were made redundant; i was retained on exactly the basis I describe here.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #312
oucho said:
OK fair enough but I do think that a relevant question would be "given CCFC's history of manager recruitment, are we likely to get a manager with a higher win% than MR?"
Click to expand...

Its not just the manager, it is the environment he has to work in.
 

oucho

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #313
Captain Dart said:
Its not just the manager, it is the environment he has to work in.
Click to expand...
Indeed, however my question above still applies. Given the environment and our track record with mangers, how likely is that someone would do better than 47% win ratio? So far, nobody has.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #314
Captain Dart said:
Its not just the manager, it is the environment he has to work in.
Click to expand...

How many times have you seen his system / tactics this season?
 

mark82

Super Moderator
  • Feb 19, 2018
  • #315
oucho said:
Indeed, however my question above still applies. Given the environment and our track record with mangers, how likely is that someone would do better than 47% win ratio? So far, nobody has.
Click to expand...

Win ratio means nothing when you are falling behind your target. The target is promotion. We've lost way too many games this season and the tactics are at fault.
 
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