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School Protests (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter Nick
  • Start date Mar 26, 2021
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Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #596
I mean, it's a nonsense, but what would constitute evidence that 'God' doesn't exist. It's such a mental abstract theory that any evidence would just be dismissed. Sorry don't know how I've allowed myself to get sucked in to this one.
 
Reactions: Otis

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #597
Evo1883 said:
No I don't think it holds science back , it holds people back
Click to expand...
Not so sure about in the US and the nutcase creationists there. They want to dismiss science, if not hold it back.
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #598
Skybluefaz said:
I mean, it's a nonsense, but what would constitute evidence that 'God' doesn't exist. It's such a mental abstract theory that any evidence would just be dismissed. Sorry don't know how I've allowed myself to get sucked in to this one.
Click to expand...

It's unlikely that there will ever be evidence to show that God doesn't exist, any more than there will be evidence to show that Santa Claus does not exist. The burden of evidence is on those who believe in a supernatural being, whether it be any of the world's 2000+ gods, to prove that their God exists (should that God's laws impinge my freedoms), not for science to prove that such a being does not exist.

Science is simply used to test any evidence that believers in God may put forward. And to date, there is not a single shred of evidence.

As Ricky said, when we find a jar of supposedly Godliness, we'll test it for its godliness, and if we find that it does indeed contain Godliness then we will all celebrate the greatest scientific finding of all time.
 
Reactions: Otis

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #599
I'm not even religious. I just find the kind of im so smart because I'm not religious posts a little bit cringe. Most people who aren't religious will be non religious because A. Their parents probably aren't, and B. The country we live in isn't particularly anymore. Its just mimicking the behaviour of those around you similar to how a religious person in a religious country would, its not big brain time.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: covcity4life, clint van damme and mrtrench

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #600
dubed said:
It's unlikely that there will ever be evidence to show that God doesn't exist, and more than to show that Santa Claus does not exist. The burden of evidence is on those who believe in a supernatural being, whether it be any of the world's 2000+ gods, to prove that their God exists (should that God's laws impinge my freedoms), not for science to prove that such a being does not exist.

Science is simply used to test any evidence that believers in God may put forward. And to date, there is not a single shred of evidence.

As Ricky said, when we find a jar of supposedly Godliness, we'll test it for its godliness, and if we find that it does indeed contain Godliness then we will all celebrate the greatest scientific finding of all time.
Click to expand...

I have no interest in religion but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mocking of religion. Pete is clearly a good guy and mocking faith seems unfair. It’s brave I think in a football forum to stand up for his beliefs
 
Reactions: covcity4life, SBAndy, Sky Blue Pete and 3 others

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #601
TomRad85 said:
I'm not even religious. I just find the kind of im so smart because I'm not religious posts a little bit cringe. Most people who aren't religious will be non religious because A. Their parents probably aren't, and B. The country we live in isn't particularly anymore. Its just mimicking the behaviour of those around you similar to how a religious person in a religious country would, its not big brain time.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I used to be in the church choir and went to church every Sunday

Then I started questioning when I got to about 14 and reasoned and rationalised everything out and decided it was a total nonsense and made absolutely no sense at all. Religious teachings based on books written by men, for men, hundreds of centuries ago.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #602
Grendel said:
I have no interest in religion but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mocking of religion. Pete is clearly a good guy and mocking faith seems unfair. It’s brave I think in a football forum to stand up for his beliefs
Click to expand...
It's organised religion that is the problem and Pete will agree on that.
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #603
Grendel said:
I have no interest in religion but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mocking of religion. Pete is clearly a good guy and mocking faith seems unfair. It’s brave I think in a football forum to stand up for his beliefs
Click to expand...

I don't feel like I am mocking. If you mean mind the inclusion of Santa Claus, that wasn't meant to be pejorative but illustrative. If it offended, then I apologise. But I will continue to feel free to argue the points made. I actually envy those who have religious faith, though that admittance shouldn't be taken as the reason for my views.
 
Reactions: Grendel

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #604
I think it is absolutely fine for anyone to believe, or not to believe in a God

It's the religious rules laid down from books from ancient times that causes the problems
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #605
Otis said:
I used to be in the church choir and went to church every Sunday

Then I started questioning when I got to about 14 and reasoned and rationalised everything out and decided it was a total nonsense and made absolutely no sense at all. Religious teachings based on books written by men, for men, hundreds of centuries ago.
Click to expand...


I was brought up to attend church and Sunday school as well. I didn't actually lose my faith until I was 27.
 
Reactions: Otis

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #606
Grendel said:
I have no interest in religion but I feel slightly uncomfortable with the mocking of religion. Pete is clearly a good guy and mocking faith seems unfair. It’s brave I think in a football forum to stand up for his beliefs
Click to expand...
The only religious person in here is Christian so people feel comfortable ridiculing it. Would be interesting to see if there were similar comments if a few other faiths were represented.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Deleted member 11652

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #607
shmmeee said:
Agnosticism is some fence sitting bullshit. What else do you pontificate on the existence of without any evidence at all an significant evidence to the contrary?

All knowledge is belief, but religion is way past the same threshold we use every day for other stuff. Thinking the sun will come up tomorrow based on the preponderance of evidence doesn’t meant you have a religious belief in the sun.
Click to expand...

I don't pontificate on the existence of a God.

My position is quite simple. I think that the human race understands very little about the nature of the Universe and nothing about what, if anything, is outside the Universe. *

I don't believe in any of the Gods that humans have imagined. However I believe it is entirely feasible that something sentient that sits outside our current knowledge of matter could exist and may even be directing the Universe in some way. I don't believe that there is, I just consider it possible. And given the tiny slither of knowledge we have, I prefer to fence-sit.

Personally, I think it as bizarre to firmly believe there is no God as it is to firmly believe there is.

* Edited in: So here's an example of some things that science cannot explain:

1. According to the big bang theory, the rate of increase of the Universe should be slowing. But it's accelerating.

2. According to The Theory of Relativity, nothing can move faster than the speed of light. However we know that entangled electrons appear to communicate with each other instantaneously, no matter how far apart they are.

3. Light appears to be both a wave and not a wave.

Possibly some some adjustment to existing theories would resolve these. However, I personally think that we're still miles away from understanding. And even when we understand that we may move from 0.000001% of knowledge to 0.0000015%.
 
Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #608
TomRad85 said:
Personally, I think it as bizarre to firmly believe there is no God as it is to firmly believe there is.
Click to expand...

Has anybody said that? I think what most if not all have said is that there are no scientific bases to believe. That's quite a different thing. This is what atheism is: an opinion based on all knowledge and laws that no proof has been to shown that a God exists, any more than anything else outside of the known universe. It is not a position based on proof that God does not exist; it is a position based on proof that there is no evidence that a God exists.

It's also why agnosticism fails. If you are agnostic about the existence of God, given all knowledge and reason, then why believe in anything at all. You either believe on the basis of evidence and reason, or you adopt (something of) a faith.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #609
dubed said:
Has anybody said that? I think what most if not all have said is that there are no scientific bases to believe. That's quite a different thing. This is what atheism is: an opinion based on all knowledge and laws that no proof has been to shown that a God exists, any more than anything else outside of the known universe. It is not proof that God does not exist; it is proof that there is no evidence that a God exists.
Click to expand...

OK, so we may actually agree with each other but are getting in a muddle because of definition of terms. If that is the definition of an atheist, then what is the definition of an agnostic? Because I call myself an agnostic deliberately because I don't know and have no evidence either way.
 

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #610
dubed said:
Has anybody said that? I think what most if not all have said is that there are no scientific bases to believe. That's quite a different thing. This is what atheism is: an opinion based on all knowledge and laws that no proof has been to shown that a God exists, any more than anything else outside of the known universe. It is not proof that God does not exist; it is proof that there is no evidence that a God exists.

It's also why agnosticism fails. If you are agnostic about the existence of God, given all knowledge and reason, then why believe in anything at all. You either believe on the basis of evidence and reason, or you adopt (something of) a faith.
Click to expand...
Why is that coming up as my quote? That's a Mr Trench one isn't it? Weird.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Deleted member 4439
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #611
TomRad85 said:
Why is that coming up as my quote? That's a Mr Trench one isn't it? Weird.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Dunno!! Soz.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #612
dubed said:
It's also why agnosticism fails. If you are agnostic about the existence of God, given all knowledge and reason, then why believe in anything at all. You either believe on the basis of evidence and reason, or you adopt (something of) a faith.
Click to expand...

You added more later!

Why would admitting I don't know enough to hold a position on something so meta and with so little knowledge, mean that I don't believe in anything at all? That's one hell of an abuse of proof by induction.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #613
TomRad85 said:
Why is that coming up as my quote? That's a Mr Trench one isn't it? Weird.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Proof of divine intervention, maybe.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 4439 and Deleted member 5849

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #614
dubed said:
Dunno!! Soz.
Click to expand...
Apology accepted.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Deleted member 4439

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #615
dubed said:
I was brought up to attend church and Sunday school as well. I didn't actually lose my faith until I was 27.
Click to expand...

I think I was about the same age. Possibly slightly younger but not much.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 4439

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #616
Evo1883 said:
There's also zero evidence that pink ponies with big blue wings do not exist .... but here we are
Click to expand...

That reminds me, mines is due a feed
 
Reactions: Evo1883
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #617
mrtrench said:
OK, so we may actually agree with each other but are getting in a muddle because of definition of terms. If that is the definition of an atheist, then what is the definition of an agnostic? Because I call myself an agnostic deliberately because I don't know and have no evidence either way.
Click to expand...

Well, I confess we may well be getting into the realms of deep philosophy and semantics. But, atheism denies the existence of a God based on known facts (or enquiry of the mind), whereas agnosticism is a position that there is no firm factual basis to deny or accept that there is a god. In other words, the facts around the existence of God are equal and opposing.

Again, being atheist doesn't deny the possibility of there being a God; rather that, on the known evidence, there is no God.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #618
Some really good arguments and interesting points being made on this thread. If only it could awlays be ike this!
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #619
mrtrench said:
OK, so we may actually agree with each other but are getting in a muddle because of definition of terms. If that is the definition of an atheist, then what is the definition of an agnostic? Because I call myself an agnostic deliberately because I don't know and have no evidence either way.
Click to expand...
I thought agnosticism was not believing there's a God, but kind of hoping there is one really.

I can get on with that.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #620
TomRad85 said:
Why is that coming up as my quote? That's a Mr Trench one isn't it? Weird.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Divine intervention?
 
Reactions: Otis and TomRad85
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #621
Oh, and I understand how at moments of crisis, people hope there's something more out there.
 
Reactions: TomRad85

TomRad85

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #622
Deleted member 5849 said:
I thought agnosticism was not believing there's a God, but kind of hoping there is one really.

I can get on with that.
Click to expand...
Yeh pretty much what I thought it was. I think its a perfectly reasonable stance.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #623
TomRad85 said:
The only religious person in here is Christian so people feel comfortable ridiculing it. Would be interesting to see if there were similar comments if a few other faiths were represented.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
They wouldn't and that is part of the problem
 
Reactions: TomRad85

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #624
Deleted member 5849 said:
Oh, and I understand how at moments of crisis, people hope there's something more out there.
Click to expand...
Especially after City were so abject yesterday.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #625
TomRad85 said:
Yeh pretty much what I thought it was. I think its a perfectly reasonable stance.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm with Christopher Hitchens on this. The thought of some divine invigilator constantly watching over us and everything we do is frightening.
I don't believe there's a god and I hope there isn't. I am one of the richest, healthiest human beings that ever lived with one of he hghest llfe expectancies, that will do for me.
 
Reactions: Otis
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #626
mrtrench said:
* Edited in: So here's an example of some things that science cannot explain:

1. According to the big bang theory, the rate of increase of the Universe should be slowing. But it's accelerating.

2. According to The Theory of Relativity, nothing can move faster than the speed of light. However we know that entangled electrons appear to communicate with each other instantaneously, no matter how far apart they are.

3. Light appears to be both a wave and not a wave.

Possibly some some adjustment to existing theories would resolve these. However, I personally think that we're still miles away from understanding. And even when we understand that we may move from 0.000001% of knowledge to 0.0000015%.
Click to expand...

Should the world survive a few more thousand years then indeed we will look like we are from before the age of enlightenment. Eighty-five percent of the universe, including the very stuff we exist in, is made up of dark matter about which we know next to nothing.

Going way back to my misspent times, I had the God-spot experience whilst on LSD, amphetamine and dope. It was both frightening and revelatory. My whole being was like a body of atoms merged with my entire surroundings as a shield of pure, white light. I was the wall, the floor, the universe. This wasn't just some mad visionary thing. It was me, everything as one as white light.

I also know from my doctorate studies in cognition and posture that as much as this being a view of the universe it could simply be a complete breakdown of my physical senses. But who knows?
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #627
mrtrench said:
Proof of divine intervention, maybe.
Click to expand...
Didn't see this post when I posted my divine intervention quip, apologies!
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #628
Deleted member 5849 said:
I thought agnosticism was not believing there's a God, but kind of hoping there is one really.

I can get on with that.
Click to expand...


No, that's atheism (well, with or without the hope).
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #629
dubed said:
No, that's athesim.
Click to expand...
Atheism is actively disbelieving, and sure and certain there is no God.
 
D

Deleted member 4439

Guest
  • Apr 3, 2021
  • #630
Deleted member 5849 said:
Atheism is actively disbelieving, and sure and certain there is no God.
Click to expand...

No, it is the metaphysical position that God does not exist, in response to the question of whether or not there is a God, on the basis of the available evidence, knowledge, and thought. It does not rule about the possibility of there being a God - though for sure in deep philosophy this all becomes a debate based on semantics (as most philosophy does).
 
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