Ricoh Arena - parliamentary debate (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 said:

My own view is that neither is wrong but you have to understand the risks and each has to accept the consequences if it all goes wrong

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Thanks OSB I certainly think you are entitled to state your own view!

imp:

Grendel said:

I believe they are very skewed. No one knows the new restructured terms that ACL now have. The making profit bit o assume is the direct quote from the council which is purely in the assumption they deliver over the payment period.

We can pretty much assume the only reason that they did what they did was because ACL were unable to meet Yorkshire banks patent terms or a fear of the loan being bought by a third party. In reality only 1 third party was ever likely to make such an action.

So will the football be better off? Well only time will tell but I suspect not.

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Have no evidence that they wont deliver though have we. I have listed what has been released in summary form for both.

We dont actually know that there is no interest on the SISU linked loans for instance.

Only reason SISU put money into CCFC in the last few years is that CCFC couldnt pay its debts. BIt like any stakeholder would do by any means available to it

The refinancing protected ACL from yorkshire bank (arguably from SISU also) but it also enabled them to make proposals to drop the rent by £900k, had the costs remained the same ACL could not have done that. Of course it stopped SISU distressing ACL further to pick up on the cheap but the actions taken are what any director would and must consider in similar situations

As for being skewed I dont believe so, and I would suggest that your own attitudes in this whole situation are far more skewed than my own. Before some numpty comes out and gives me all the rhetoric about being anti sisu , not a real fan, pro ACL, not wanting whats best for the club do me a favour dont bother........ have been suggesting viable alternatives to this mess for years that put the club first. This whole situation did not have to go this way if it was only about the football club, ACL have made mistakes, but CCFC/SISU have made bigger ones.............. the rent could have been lower and the club taking advantage of income streams years ago, primarily I have to assume SISU and the various boards of ccfc in the last 10 years decided other things were greater priority. Their decision no one elses

sorry if you dont like the comparison but it is in my opinion valid ............... and i say again neither set up is actually wrong in my view

as for the football ...... last time I looked SISU ran the club up to them to get that right isnt it ?

oldskyblue58 said:

As for being skewed I dont believe so, and I would suggest that your own attitudes in this whole situation are far more skewed than my own.

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Yup, I agree..

Sorry, Im runnig my hand under cold taps now! Work it out from what you see..PS tried to remove some of the useless stufff but thought I should just leave it as it is and get it out there.

ccfc deep financial difficulty. Assets sold to SISU 5 years ago.[/SIZE][/FONT]

SISU multi layered. They claim 43 million losses but noone sure.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[
Battle over rentlast year, SISU on rent strike. ACLbelieve the agenda to destabilise ACL.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Fans and people of Cov despair.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Football league have said that any application to move wouldneed to be considered by the football league. Any owner would need to provethat they intend coming back in to city.[/SIZE][/FONT]

The League can only do so much. Do the gov believe that thisis adequate.[/SIZE][/FONT]

]One aspect of the dispute is this.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[
]The clubs owners are seeking to challenge the validity ofthe original agreement and are using it to discredit the loan given to ACLby CCC.[/SIZE][/FONT]
]
]If the Hedgefund[/SIZE][/FONT]
[
Another speaker: Impression that SISU to buy club? Arbitration.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[
BA....Potential way forward.[/SIZE][/FONT]
]
Martin Reeves and Chris West dismiss SISUs attempt to re open the original rent.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Sky Blues Trust has 800 members has called for Binding arbitratis on: John Beech Cranfield Univ. [/SIZE][/FONT]
]
Mark Laveridge board member enthusiastic (Sisu) but theresponse now is to turn the investigation round to scrutinise the financialstructure of ACL.



another speaker: Refrugby lions: Football authorities needto be invloved.



BA.....arbitration? Email from Laveridge, arbitration in public. This from SISU! a company who refuse tonegotiate in the open.



SBT campaign for stake in club. but SISU move the goalposts. Sky Blues Trust say the sisuoffer is not workable.



Supporters Direct: Football governance not good 92clubs have gone bust. Compared to Germanywho have had none.



Arent accountability issues a problem in football.



Ricoh Arena has loads of potential. Many in City have workedhard to bring the Ricoh area in to economic use. Many accept that the right partner will getsupport. SISU must not be allowed to goforward. The football club is a mostvaluable asset for the community. I fearthat SISU has no interest.



Huddersfield Town MP...Wishing CCFCevery success in the future. BrianKilcline sends his best wishes (Ref him meeting MP recently)



BA we all fear we will never see CCFC achieve successagain. SISU have deliberately prolongedthe negotiations. I would like theminister to respond to the need to reform the game. (In general).

I would like to ask if GOVT has considered supporters directlicencing proposals.

To the club I would just like to say that if they want to betaken seriously they need to stop delaying things. A reasonable response to arbitration wouldhave been an opportunity for the club to win trust by meeting with SBT. But the response is that they have absolutelyfailed to get together with the fans. Instead of the attempts to destroy reputation, if we had some kind ofstraight response it would be some good will that would rally to the cause.



ANOTHER MP: Thankedfor call for debate, At outset, case putextremely well. Sympathy for fans of CCFC.

The tragedy is that it is not unique to this club.



does govt believe that fl approach sufficient There has been progress such as the FFPrules being implemented. Debt is thesingle biggest prob for football. I donot think the measeures so far are sufficient.



Without detailed knowledge difficult to comment.



Geoffrey Robinson. Would the minister be ... to help with mediation. Is there anyone in the department who canhelp? There needs to be arepresentation.



MP......No statutory power but I will say that if there is astage where ministers can help he would be happy to help. But the FL should have a role.



Bob Ains: Mediationis an area of concern because he sees this as a delaying tactic.



MP.....Supporter represention. The govt believes this is an area that needsto be addressed and that their views have not been taken in to account. If this does not happen....govt to takeaction. GOVT not happy with footballgovernance at the moment.



We are aware that 60 mps are concerned with the way footballis run. The DCMS committee made a seriesof reccomendations. They have workedcloser together and agree the need to change. Govt will legislate if noprogress is made.

A key part of legis is the involvement of footballsupporters.



Wishes MPS well and CCFCdoes not deserve to be in this position.

Warwickhunt said:

He is concerned because of the Councils involvement - public funds being used to proffer loans etc!

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WillieStanley said:

As far as I'm aware, Bob isn't a real football fan, but my second hand information indicates that he is disgusted that there is a potential for Coventry to be without a comptetative football club and lays the blame at the council and charity for taking financial advantage of our plight all those years ago and repeatedly whacking us with it now.

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Quite the opposite!

No criticism of ACL/CCC from Bob whatsoever - however 100% criticism of SISU, Seppala, Labovitch, their obfuscation, procrastination,secrecy and downright cheek in the way they do their 'business'.

Flying Fokker said:

Sorry, Im runnig my hand under cold taps now! Work it out from what you see..

Click to expand...

thanks FF

I took out the formatting for you

ccfc deep financial difficulty. Assets sold to SISU 5 years ago
SISU multi layered. They claim 43 million losses but noone sure
Battle over rentlast year, SISU on rent strike. ACLbelieve the agenda to destabilise ACL.
Fans and people of Cov despair
Football league have said that any application to move wouldneed to be considered by the football league. Any owner would need to provethat they intend coming back in to city
The League can only do so much. Do the gov believe that thisis adequate
One aspect of the dispute is this
The clubs owners are seeking to challenge the validity ofthe original agreement and are using it to discredit the loan given to ACLby CCC
If the Hedgefund
Another speaker: Impression that SISU to buy club? Arbitration
BA....Potential way forward
Martin Reeves and Chris West dismiss SISUs attempt to re open the original rent
Sky Blues Trust has 800 members have a proposition. Binding arbitration: John Beech Cranfield Univ.
Mark Laveridge board member enthusiastic (Sisu) but theresponse now is to turn the investigation round to scrutinise the financialstructure of ACL
another speaker: Refrugby lions: Football authorities needto be invloved
BA.....arbitration? Email from Laveridge, arbitration in public. This from SISU! a company who refuse tonegotiate in the open
SBT campaign for stake in club. but SISU move the goalposts. Sky Blues Trust say the sisuoffer is not workable
Supporters Direct: Football governance not good 92clubs have gone bust. Compared to Germanywho have had none
Arent accountability issues a problem in football
Ricoh Arena has loads of potential. Many in City have workedhard to bring the Ricoh area in to economic use. Many accept that the right partner will getsupport. SISU must not be allowed to goforward. The football club is a mostvaluable asset for the community. I fearthat SISU has no interest
Huddersfield Town MP...Wishing CCFCevery success in the future. BrianKilcline sends his best wishes (Ref him meeting MP recently)
BA we all fear we will never see CCFC achieve successagain. SISU have deliberately prolongedthe negotiations. I would like theminister to respond to the need to reform the game. (In general)
I would like to ask if GOVT has considered supporters directlicencing proposals
To the club I would just like to say that if they want to betaken seriously they need to stop delaying things. A reasonable response to arbitration wouldhave been an opportunity for the club to win trust by meeting with SBT. But the response is that they have absolutelyfailed to get together with the fans. Instead of the attempts to destroy reputation, if we had some kind ofstraight response it would be some good will that would rally to the cause
ANOTHER MP: Thankedfor call for debate, At outset, case putextremely well. Sympathy for fans of CCFC
The tragedy is that it is not unique to this club
does govt believe that fl approach sufficient There has been progress such as the FFPrules being implemented. Debt is thesingle biggest prob for football. I donot think the measeures so far are sufficient
Without detailed knowledge difficult to comment
Geoffrey Robinson. Would the minister be ... to help with mediation. Is there anyone in the department who canhelp? There needs to be arepresentation
MP......No statutory power but I will say that if there is astage where ministers can help he would be happy to help. But the FL should have a role
Bob Ains: Mediationis an area of concern because he sees this as a delaying tactic.
MP.....Supporter represention. The govt believes this is an area that needsto be addressed and that their views have not been taken in to account. If this does not happen....govt to takeaction. GOVT not happy with footballgovernance at the moment
We are aware that 60 mps are concerned with the way footballis run. The DCMS committee made a seriesof reccomendations. They have workedcloser together and agree the need to change. Govt will legislate if noprogress is made
A key part of legis is the involvement of footballsupporters
Wishes MPS well and CCFCdoes not deserve to be in this position

imp:

Cool. Needed that.

Did I read correctly that the Rugby Lions were mentioned? I'm what context?!?

Context: Rugby Lions went into administration.

Flying Fokker said:

Cool. Needed that.

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yw

the stream can be replayed already

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=12785

drag to 16:56

I didn't think it was an amazing presentation by the MP's

Critical of SISU and puts them under more pressure

asked minister to intervene & bring some mediation


imp:

I think GR's contribution was VERY SIGNIFICANT

1) He declared an interest, but didn't clarify what he meant (is he a SISU investor or is it just his former involvement & the fact he is City MP?)
2) He argued for mediation & Ainsworth had to slap him down & say arbitration was the SBT proposal, mediation was in his opinion a tactic used by SISU to prevavicate.

TheRoyalScam said:

Context: Rugby Lions went into administration.

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and the Rugby authorities didn't help much/enough, he asked if Minister believed Football authorities were involved enough..

TheRoyalScam said:

Context: Rugby Lions went into administration.

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Thanks for the clarification

Jack Griffin said:

and the Rugby authorities didn't help much/enough, he asked if Minister believed Football authorities were involved enough..

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but the lions was owned by a conman ..pure and simple..but the council still own the land that the rugby lions is on

skybluejelly said:

but the lions was owned by a conman ..pure and simple..but the council still own the land that the rugby lions is on

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I only para phrased what the Rugby MP said, I've no knowledge of Rugby Lions, he was just comparing what happened to them with the situation at City & he also mentioned the fact that Rugby has a lot of CCFC fans.. his point was basically that the football authorities need to get a grip on all this nonsense!

Albeit interesting to know that we are being talked about in the big smoke, what use was it???

Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing.

Thanks both of you

I would guess that wasnt how SISU hoped it might come out ........

oldskyblue58 said:

I would guess that wasnt how SISU hoped it might come out ........

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wot cum out mate?

Additonal words added to help clarify context:


ccfc deep financial difficulty. Assets sold to SISU 5 years ago
SISU multi layered. They claim 43 million losses but no one sure though. (Reference to secrecy).
Battle over rent last year, SISU on rent strike. ACL believe the agenda to destabilise ACL.
Fans and people of Cov despair
Football league have said that any application to move would need to be considered by the football league. Any owner would need to prove that they intend coming back in to city
The League can only do so much. Do the gov believe that this is adequate
One aspect of the dispute is this
The clubs owners are seeking to challenge the validity ofthe original agreement (Set up in 2005?) and are using it to discredit the loan given to ACLby CCC
If the Hedgefund
Another speaker: Impression that SISU to buy club? Arbitration
BA....Potential way forward
Martin Reeves and Chris West dismiss SISUs attempt to re open the original rent details (Inference that SISU believe there is a loophole to look at so they can suggest that the rent is illegal) Ainsworth also mentioned that the building of the stadium and all of the surrounding area had nothing to do with them when it was first planned. He intimated that SISU have a cheek.
Sky Blues Trust has 800 members have a proposition. Binding arbitration: John Beech Cranfield Univ. offered as someone who could arbitrate in future.
Mark Laveridge board member enthusiastic (Sisu) but ther esponse now is to turn the investigation round to scrutinise the financial structure of ACL (The irony being that SISU refuse to reveal their own financial situation).
another speaker: Refrugby lions: Football authorities needto be invloved
BA.....arbitration? Email from Laveridge, arbitration in public. This from SISU! a company who refuse tonegotiate in the open
SBT campaign for stake in club. but SISU move the goalposts. Sky Blues Trust say the sisuoffer is not workable
Supporters Direct: Football governance not good 92clubs have gone bust since the 1960s Compared to Germany who have had none
Arent accountability issues a problem in football?
Ricoh Arena has loads of potential. Many in City have worked hard to bring the Ricoh area in to economic use. Many accept that the right partner will get support. SISU must not be allowed to go forward. (Not exact words but the inference is there) The football club is a most valuable asset for the community. I fear that SISU has no interest in Coventry City.
Huddersfield Town MP...Wishing CCFC every success in the future. Brian Kilcline sends his best wishes (Ref him meeting MP recently)
BA we all fear we will never see CCFC achieve success again. SISU have deliberately prolonged the negotiations. I would like the minister to respond to the need to reform the game. (In general)
I would like to ask if GOVT has considered supporters direct licencing proposals
To the club I would just like to say that if they (SISU) want to be taken seriously they need to stop delaying things. A reasonable response to arbitration would have been an opportunity for the club to win trust by meeting with SBT ET AL . But the response is that they have absolutely failed to get together with the fans. Instead they attempts to destroy reputation of SISU, if we had some kind of straight response it would be some good will that would rally to the cause
ANOTHER MP: Thankedfor call for debate, At outset, case put extremely well. Sympathy for fans of CCFC
The tragedy is that it is not unique to this club
does govt believe that fl approach sufficient There has been progress such as the FFP rules being implemented. Debt is thesingle biggest prob for football. I donot think the measeures so far are sufficient
Without detailed knowledge difficult to comment
Geoffrey Robinson. Would the minister be able to help with mediation. Is there anyone in the department who can help? There needs to be a representation
MP......No statutory power but I will say that if there is astage where ministers can help he would be happy to help. But the FL should have a role
Bob Ains: Mediationis an area of concern because he sees this as a delaying tactic. Suggesting that the sports minister may be wasting his time or may be used bu SISU in any mediation process that he takes part in.
MP.....Supporter represention. The govt believes this is an area that needsto be addressed and that their views have not been taken in to account. If this does not happen....govt to takeaction. GOVT not happy with football governance at the moment
We are aware that 60 mps are concerned with the way footballis run. The DCMS committee made a seriesof reccomendations. They have worked closer together and agree the need to change. Govt will legislate if no progress is made
A key part of legis is the involvement of football supporters
Wishes MPS well and CCFC does not deserve to be in this position

Not a one sided report backing the council then!

mrtickle said:

Not a one sided report backing the council then!

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FF is reporting what was said in the debate, look at it yourself.. a lot more was said & infact much of it far more condemnatory of SISU & their motives than FF states.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/main/Player.aspx?meetingId=12785

Just skip forward to 16:58 when the Ricoh/CCFC debate starts..

LarryGrayson said:

wot cum out mate?

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would guess they would have liked it to be more supportive of the club and by association them

oldskyblue58 said:

I would guess that wasnt how SISU hoped it might come out ........

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It was pretty much a PR disaster for SISU, but I'm not sure how much it will bother them. And I certainly don't think this will deflect them from their objectives (whatever they are?) or their strategy to achieve them (whatever that is?). It ought to have an effect on their behaviour and tactics, but unfortunately I doubt if it will. Hopefully, the Football League may be interested in intervening to appoint a mediator, as a result of this debate, but I'm not holding my breath!

Frankly, I can't see SISU ever agreeing to binding arbitration and am not sure whether the Council would either. So some sort of mediation seems the only realistic way out of the mess which SISU and ACL have created and I believe the Football League ought to insist on it.

mrtickle said:

Not a one sided report backing the council then!

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Listen to it dude.

Come back with your anti council and ACL comments later as well if you like.

Pete in Portugal said:

It was pretty much a PR disaster for them, but I'm not sure how much it will bother them. And I certainly don't think this will deflect them from their objectives (whatever they are?) or their strategy to achieve them (whatever that is?). It ought to have an effect on their behaviour and tactics, but unfortunately I doubt if it will. Hopefully, the Football League may be interested in intervening to appoint a mediator, as a result of this debate, but I'm not holding my breath!

Frankly, I can't see SISU ever agreeing to binding arbitration and am not sure whether the Council would either. So some sort of mediation seems the only realistic way out of the mess which SISU and ACL have created and I believe the Football League ought to insist on it.

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Mediation will just be more waste of time.

Most believe that neither side will feel comfortable with arbitration, and that's exactly why it should be the chosen way. If outside authorithies like the league and/or the sport minsters office could lean on the parties, that might just get them there. If one side accept arbitration the other side cannot reject.

I think I've missed a major point here but when I was watching Bob Ainsworth said that binding arbitration was the way forward. He them seem to suggest (sounded like he only read the follow up to a previous email) Mark Labovitch, on the board at CCFC, was agreeable to this and the process should be made public which somehow seemed to make it a bad thing. What have I missed as surely the club agreeing to binding arbitration with transparency for the fans would be a good thing? Was there any mention of ACL agreeing to binding arbitration?

WillieStanley said:

As far as I'm aware, Bob isn't a real football fan, but my second hand information indicates that he is disgusted that there is a potential for Coventry to be without a comptetative football club and lays the blame at the council and charity for taking financial advantage of our plight all those years ago and repeatedly whacking us with it now.

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seems you were wrong in that assumption m8

Bob was very anti-SISU and put a very passionate case for CCFC, with GR chipping in with a few things .... but at the end of the day, the minister said he didn't have the power to appoint a mediator/arbitrator, and basically said good luck with it. Waste of time IMHO.

RegTheDonk said:

Bob was very anti-SISU and put a very passionate case for CCFC, with GR chipping in with a few things .... but at the end of the day, the minister said he didn't have the power to appoint a mediator/arbitrator, and basically said good luck with it. Waste of time IMHO.

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was a bit underwhelming wasn't it! was hoping Bob was going to use parliamentary privilege to drop some bombshell but no such luck.

chiefdave said:

I think I've missed a major point here but when I was watching Bob Ainsworth said that binding arbitration was the way forward. He them seem to suggest (sounded like he only read the follow up to a previous email) Mark Labovitch, on the board at CCFC, was agreeable to this and the process should be made public which somehow seemed to make it a bad thing. What have I missed as surely the club agreeing to binding arbitration with transparency for the fans would be a good thing? Was there any mention of ACL agreeing to binding arbitration?

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Sort of. Joy Seppela put the mokkers on mediation after Labovic took it to her. Listen to the whole debate on the link further up.

chiefdave said:

I think I've missed a major point here but when I was watching Bob Ainsworth said that binding arbitration was the way forward. He them seem to suggest (sounded like he only read the follow up to a previous email) Mark Labovitch, on the board at CCFC, was agreeable to this and the process should be made public which somehow seemed to make it a bad thing. What have I missed as surely the club agreeing to binding arbitration with transparency for the fans would be a good thing? Was there any mention of ACL agreeing to binding arbitration?

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I don't think a public proces is required. Both parties will have to reveal financial and contractual details not usually printed in the yearly reports, and they may feel uneasy giving these details to the world.
As long as the arbitration is binding and done by a football finance expert, I don't need to know details other than the end result.

Godiva said:

Mediation will just be more waste of time.

Most believe that neither side will feel comfortable with arbitration, and that's exactly why it should be the chosen way. If outside authorithies like the league and/or the sport minsters office could lean on the parties, that might just get them there. If one side accept arbitration the other side cannot reject.

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Godiva I agree that mediation might turn out to be a waste of time, but surely it must increase chance of resolution of the dispute compared with the current situation, i.e. no negotiations at all.

I agree that binding arbitration would be the best solution, but I don't believe it's realistically likely to happen. Yes it would be great if the Sports Minister or the Football League forced the parties to agree to binding arbitration, but unfortunately this is just not going to happen either.

Flying Fokker said:

Sort of. Joy Seppela put the mokkers on mediation after Labovic took it to her. Listen to the whole debate on the link further up.

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that'll be the point I missed. think the Trust need to push them on this. they've publicly suggested mediation so call them out on why they won't agree to binding arbitration. you would have to assume they don't want it because they don't think it will go their way. ACL could really put some pressure on them if they come out publicly and say they will go to binding arbitration. Much as I don't like everything been done in public I think that's the only way anything is going to happen now as talks seem to have broken down totally.