results of admin (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter percy
- Start date
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
80 million:facepalm:and counting:facepalm:
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Normally there would be a CVA which will be a p in the £ offer would be made but I'm not sure that's what's happening here. As far as I can work out the only debt is to ACL and that is being paid off in full. There then seems to be some sort of debt to equity swap, I would guess some or all of the historical debt SISU inherited will be written off. Based on what Fisher has said this is already written down anyway and it's not actually money SISU put in so they can wipe it and still have the club owe them every penny they've put in. I expect at least £45m of the debt to remain if not more.
percy
Member
sorry wrote my last reply before reading daves. cheers dave
Sky Blue Dal
Well-Known Member
Here is an example of why so many German football clubs finances are superior than ours. There FA don't allow this nonsense. Won't be long before we see major crisis in the prem.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
They can leave the debt in CCFC Ltd and liquidate the company and most of the debt will still exist
Got to remember what the debt is made up of
Biggest part is money owed to CCFC H. Now ask yourself how did CCFC H get the money to give to CCFC Ltd. It had loans from SISU/SBS&L to do it so that most of the debt remains owed by CCFCH
The amount owed to SBS&l is that actually cash put in to CCFC Ltd or a charge?
The ARVO debt is not actually money put in but a charge over the assets of CCFC Ltd. There is a similar charge over the assets of CCFC H.
Bottom line is at the end of the administration, assume CCFC Ltd is liquidated, then most of the debt will still remain but it will be owed by CCFC H
Got to remember what the debt is made up of
Biggest part is money owed to CCFC H. Now ask yourself how did CCFC H get the money to give to CCFC Ltd. It had loans from SISU/SBS&L to do it so that most of the debt remains owed by CCFCH
The amount owed to SBS&l is that actually cash put in to CCFC Ltd or a charge?
The ARVO debt is not actually money put in but a charge over the assets of CCFC Ltd. There is a similar charge over the assets of CCFC H.
Bottom line is at the end of the administration, assume CCFC Ltd is liquidated, then most of the debt will still remain but it will be owed by CCFC H
duffer
Well-Known Member
Hi osb, are you sure that the admin proposal for CCFC Ltd is liquidation?
I thought it was being sold as a going concern to Otium, and exiting Admin via a CVA.
Wouldn't liquidation actually mean the end of the club in the FL (the very reason ACL pushed for Administration)?
In fact, as I recall exiting Admin via anything other than a CVA means a further points deduction next season...
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Thinking beyond the admin proposal duffer ............. thats just the next step
Proposal is to satisfy the unrelated creditors in full - exit administration by a very short term CVA in effect. If the Lease is still active they will need the FL to give the share to CCFC H (otherwise why switch the contracts etc) then liquidate CCFC Ltd to break the lease assuming ACl consider it active to avoid further rent charges. If ACL have already terminated the lease and share goes to CCFCH what is the point of CCFC Ltd? The trade is being operated by CCFC H at the moment like it or not - whether it should be or not is a different question
Point is then can let it go and move the losses around the group and not be greatly worse off because the loans to CCFC H still exist
Proposal is to satisfy the unrelated creditors in full - exit administration by a very short term CVA in effect. If the Lease is still active they will need the FL to give the share to CCFC H (otherwise why switch the contracts etc) then liquidate CCFC Ltd to break the lease assuming ACl consider it active to avoid further rent charges. If ACL have already terminated the lease and share goes to CCFCH what is the point of CCFC Ltd? The trade is being operated by CCFC H at the moment like it or not - whether it should be or not is a different question
Point is then can let it go and move the losses around the group and not be greatly worse off because the loans to CCFC H still exist
Last edited:
Stafford_SkBlue
Well-Known Member
The debt is really irrelevant, mainly losses incurred by previous investors such as robinson.
Bbc like to quote it to make statements which gives the wrong perception.
Is the Debt to Arvo the trading losses we have had since sisu came, which has kept the club solvent.
Bbc like to quote it to make statements which gives the wrong perception.
Is the Debt to Arvo the trading losses we have had since sisu came, which has kept the club solvent.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
I can't really get my head around the following: you can't go bust then simply buy your company with another company you've set up and carry on, "business as usual", as if nothings happened, surely? Under these circumstances surely all debts must stand. So I'd say that all of our previous debt must surely stand, otherwise every company would be setting up new companies and would never pay their debts.
Right?
Right?
deanocity3
New Member
I thought Otium had the £50m debt
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
with another buyer there would be a CVA (either approved by the creditors or not, in the case of not then another points penalty) which would be a p in the £ however I remember reading of one club who paid 0.2p in the £ so your debt doesn't go but it is massively reduced and you don't have to pay it all off in one go either although i believe a lot of buyers do just to get everything squared off before taking over.
percy
Member
so otium are paying who ?? acl and..... then the rest of the debt remains in the club i take it ? im confused.com
Warwickhunt
Well-Known Member
If we don't come out of Administration with a CVA then the FL will impose a 15 point penalty and that is a fact
ccfc92
Well-Known Member
i really dont buy this 70 million. say they took over and the balance was -35 million, they payed this off, so the balance was £0.
then they reckon we were losing 500k a month x 6 years = £36,000,000 fair enough.
however, the last 2 or 3 seasons, we have slashed our wage bill etc, so the 500 k a month loss should be 18 mill really.
then you take into account our indisclosed transfer fees, bigi, keogh etc all gone for 1 million+
and the only real spend was cody at 250k.
my point is, half the 70 million is owed to sisu themselves. the other is the loss of the company, but is very questionable.
then they reckon we were losing 500k a month x 6 years = £36,000,000 fair enough.
however, the last 2 or 3 seasons, we have slashed our wage bill etc, so the 500 k a month loss should be 18 mill really.
then you take into account our indisclosed transfer fees, bigi, keogh etc all gone for 1 million+
and the only real spend was cody at 250k.
my point is, half the 70 million is owed to sisu themselves. the other is the loss of the company, but is very questionable.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Understood - sorry.
I think if this was the situation ACL would be daft not to challenge it.
If the FL doesn't return the golden share to CCFC Ltd then as you say it's blindingly obvious that SISU's next move would indeed be to liquidate CCFC Ltd and break the lease.
That would be an outrage, in my book - the FL would have conspired with SISU to escape paying the legitimate debt of a football creditor (ACL).
It would set a terrible precedent too. Anyone who couldn't afford to pay any kind of football debt could pull exactly the same stunt. Transfer assets to a holding company, retain liabilities in the original company, fail to pay, go for a CVA, demand the golden share moves to the newco and liquidate the old company.
Surely the FL aren't complete morons? I think that's a rhetorical question.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Eek. I know it's the first sign of madness replying to your own posts, but this seems to be exactly what the Administrator is proposing. This from the Administrator's site:
http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/ne...administrators-line-up-buyer-for-coventry-fc#
"All clubs that are part of the Football League and Premiership league must exit an administration via a Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA). This is a deal to repay creditors a percentage of debt over a contracted period of time. A CVA must be voted for by more than 75% of creditors, by value, in order for approval.
Clubs will usually transfer
the assets of the club, such as player contracts, to a new company, (new co), with the original company (old co) entering liquidation. The new co will make the CVA payments to the creditors."No way ACL will vote for that, or take it lying down if enforced, surely? This deal would clearly be unfairly prejudicial to ACL's chances of having the lease paid in the future (the "horizontal test", as I recall).
No wonder ACL are keeping quiet - they need to consider their next move very carefully, imho.
