Remember this thread when Gardener signed on loan (5 Viewers)

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
Shame his tactics weren’t as positive as his comments eh.

Actions speak louder than words.

He is talking about a future game. He said 'I think we will win'. You need to put this statement about his 'tactics not being positive' in the future tense as opposed to the past tense, then it will look more objective and rather less like you may have tweaked things to fit a 'Thorn Out' agenda. PS - if we lose and/or his tactics are not up to scratch, then come on and say 'I told you so'... that is an important consideration on a football forum containing your fellow Coventry fan and will add credence to your argument.

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
He is talking about a future game. He said 'I think we will win'. You need to put this statement about his 'tactics not being positive' in the future tense as opposed to the past tense, then it will look more objective and rather less like you may have tweaked things to fit a 'Thorn Out' agenda. PS - if we lose and/or his tactics are not up to scratch, then come on and say 'I told you so'... that is an important consideration on a football forum containing your fellow Coventry fan and will add credence to your argument.

Ive been saying he's not up to scratch since I went Millwall back at the start of November. We are not an attacking threat and all this neat football has no end product. We couldn't even score against a team who prior playing us have failed to keep a clean sheet all season.

Thorn say oh we only lost be the odd goal we were unlucky but thats irrelevant. I would rather us go for games and lose 3 or 4 rather then the odd goal. Least we can say we went for it.

When your at the bottom you have to take risks. Thorn would rather lose by 1 goal then actually go for it.

Let me ask you this, are his tactics right for the team and our current position?

22 games in and weve scored 17 goals. Worst record in the league.

Otis · Dec 21, 2011

Sutty said:
Hold up. I'm sure Thorn has received a lot of criticism for repeating the same thing again and again in his interviews? 'We were unlucky', 'false position' etc. So why are we now criticising him for saying something he's never said before?

Ultimately though, if you're bottom of the league with 13 points then anything positive you say is going to sound slightly ridiculous. I don't think he really could have said much else though could he?

If it were me? I would say "We're at home and we played well last game out so we feel if we approach the game in the right manner we have a good chance of getting the 3 points." That sounds pretty positive to me.

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken...

This argument is going to play itself out on a daily basis on a number of threads that started in reference to something else entirely. I'm going to opt out of it as I have done little enough work today as it is (sorry). The only question that crops up in response to all that you say is, if you were the asset stripping SISU board who had promoted Chief Scout to become (quite possibly) the poorest paid manager in the division on a one year contract, who would you employ in his stead? If you can get anywhere near a decent answer for this, maybe the idea of sacking Thorn is worth repeatedly discussing.

Sutty · Dec 21, 2011

Otis said:
If it were me? I would say "We're at home and we played well last game out so we feel if we approach the game in the right manner we have a good chance of getting the 3 points." That sounds pretty positive to me.

Each to their own I suppose. Doesn't sound that different to me. Just more verbose!

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
CUS Wyken...

This argument is going to play itself out on a daily basis on a number of threads that started in reference to something else entirely. I'm going to opt out of it as I have done little enough work today as it is (sorry). The only question that crops up in response to all that you say is, if you were the asset stripping SISU board who had promoted Chief Scout to become (quite possibly) the poorest paid manager in the division on a one year contract, who would you employ in his stead? If you can get anywhere near a decent answer for this, maybe the idea of sacking Thorn is worth repeatedly discussing.

You are baiscally saying that you don't rate Thorn either but we have no back up for a manager to replace him. I would love to see O'Driscoll here. He worked wonders at Donny with a shoe-string budget. I think he would love the job and give him the position now, he can build for next season.

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
You are baiscally saying that you don't rate Thorn either but we have no back up for a manager to replace him. I would love to see O'Driscoll here. He worked wonders at Donny with a shoe-string budget. I think he would love the job and give him the position now, he can build for next season.

I wasn't saying that. I think we have sacked too many managers in recent times. I think the priority is a new board, rather than a new manager. I think SISU's lack of investment would preclude paying Andy Thorn off and paying Sean O'Driscoll in. It would not be O'Driscoll's first managerial role and you are not the only person who rates him. What I am saying is that, if this argument must crop up on every thread, what is the next step to sacking Thorn? Carsley / Harrison / Gregor Rioch? I am fairly certain they will become the only considerations for SISU. I am NOT saying Thorn makes no errors and is immune from blame. I am a football fan and get frustrated at some decisions. These do not cloud every game for me. If we had all the money in the world and Thorn had a little time with any real resources, it may well prove time for him to go. I think your stance of 'Thorn Out' is impractical, counter productive and stems from a more general dissatisfaction with impending relegation.

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
I wasn't saying that. I think we have sacked too many managers in recent times. I think the priority is a new board, rather than a new manager. I think SISU's lack of investment would preclude paying Andy Thorn off and paying Sean O'Driscoll in. It would not be O'Driscoll's first managerial role and you are not the only person who rates him. What I am saying is that, if this argument must crop up on every thread, what is the next step to sacking Thorn? Carsley / Harrison / Gregor Rioch? I am fairly certain they will become the only considerations for SISU. I am NOT saying Thorn makes no errors and is immune from blame. I am a football fan and get frustrated at some decisions. These do not cloud every game for me. If we had all the money in the world and Thorn had a little time with any real resources, it may well prove time for him to go. I think your stance of 'Thorn Out' is impractical, counter productive and stems from a more general dissatisfaction with impending relegation.

Ok answer me this.

What positives has Thorn done since in charge?

I can name one. His so called passing mentality. Which is all good and well with the right players. However he needs to earn his crust and get the best out of a bad bunch.

His tactics are very dubious, he still a one trick pony with a diamond formation which is so predictable. His team selection sometimes amazes including his man managament skilles, Eastwood and now Deegan.

We have gone backwards since his tenure and whilst he stays as manager this will continue.

Too many feel sorry for him and gets the sympathy vote becasue of SISU. SISU are to blame granted but Thorn has contrbuted to our downward sprial too.

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
Ok answer me this.

What positives has Thorn done since in charge?

I can name one. His so called passing mentality. Which is all good and well with the right players. However he needs to earn his crust and get the best out of a bad bunch.

His tactics are very dubious, he still a one trick pony with a diamond formation which is so predictable. His team selection sometimes amazes including his man managament skilles, Eastwood and now Deegan.

We have gone backwards since his tenure and whilst he stays as manager this will continue.

Too many feel sorry for him and gets the sympathy vote becasue of SISU. SISU are to blame granted but Thorn has contrbuted to our downward sprial too.

That's it. No one is claiming Thorn has not contributed at all to our downward spiral. He is a rookie manager, in his first post, he has made mistakes. As I say, I don't think these crop up as often as stated by some, but that is by the by. I hold SISU responsible for our current plight. I think experienced pros should be doing more to help out the kids. I think we have a weak squad within the League. I think Thorn will have achieved a miracle if we stay in the division. I was never naive enough to expect his tenure to be perfect in his first ever job under such stretched circumstances. But I remember the toss we used to watch under Boothroyd and the fact he came in and immediately changed things for the better. I remember having a chat with ROD about the difference in the camp and the opinion of the lads about Thorny (I think it is wildly too simplistic to talk about his man management skills as regards Eastwood - which manager did get the best out of him, do you know his BMI or attitude, etc.). Things have not gone well and there are some disputable decisions, but I remember plenty of those under Dowie, Coleman and Boothroyd. Thorn has had the least to play with of a list of our ever growing list of hired and fired managers (we have had far too many managers in my lifetime), and probably the least to play with in the Championship. I think he deviates from the diamond on occasion, but, as all the players are congregated in roughly the same area of the park, it bypasses the acknowledgment of some fans (who are, as we all do, seeing things how they see it). I think that for every iffy substitution, there is at least one I would agree with, probably more. You say he needs to earn his crust and that he is not doing so and should be sacked. Ok, SISU, who else would earn a comparable crust and improve our current plight, given the playing staff and finances available..? (I know it is the argument of a gobshite, but isn't it the only relevant argument here?)

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
That's it. No one is claiming Thorn has not contributed at all to our downward spiral. He is a rookie manager, in his first post, he has made mistakes. As I say, I don't think these crop up as often as stated by some, but that is by the by. I hold SISU responsible for our current plight. I think experienced pros should be doing more to help out the kids. I think we have a weak squad within the League. I think Thorn will have achieved a miracle if we stay in the division. I was never naive enough to expect his tenure to be perfect in his first ever job under such stretched circumstances. But I remember the toss we used to watch under Boothroyd and the fact he came in and immediately changed things for the better. I remember having a chat with ROD about the difference in the camp and the opinion of the lads about Thorny (I think it is wildly too simplistic to talk about his man management skills as regards Eastwood - which manager did get the best out of him, do you know his BMI or attitude, etc.). Things have not gone well and there are some disputable decisions, but I remember plenty of those under Dowie, Coleman and Boothroyd. Thorn has had the least to play with of a list of our ever growing list of hired and fired managers (we have had far too many managers in my lifetime), and probably the least to play with in the Championship. I think he deviates from the diamond on occasion, but, as all the players are congregated in roughly the same area of the park, it bypasses the acknowledgment of some fans (who are, as we all do, seeing things how they see it). I think that for every iffy substitution, there is at least one I would agree with, probably more. You say he needs to earn his crust and that he is not doing so and should be sacked. Ok, SISU, who else would earn a comparable crust and improve our current plight, given the playing staff and finances available..? (I know it is the argument of a gobshite, but isn't it the only relevant argument here?)

Fair enough and i understand where your coming from but Thorn is on a 12 month contract. He will not be here next season and thats why i feel he should be gone now and if we can bring someone in for the long term then do it now. Build for league 1 next season.

smileycov · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
Fair enough and i understand where your coming from but Thorn is on a 12 month contract. He will not be here next season and thats why i feel he should be gone now and if we can bring someone in for the long term then do it now. Build for league 1 next season.

they will not pay him off, they will not pay to employ a decent manager.........how hard is that to understand?

what we need and what we want is irrelavent :facepalm:

The Reverend Skyblue · Dec 21, 2011

I think we're crap.

The Rev

Gaz · Dec 21, 2011

Otis said:
You seem to be a bit of a angry sort. Chill out, it's Christmas.

Angry ? Nah

Sarcastic ? Very

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

smileycov said:
they will not pay him off, they will not pay to employ a decent manager.........how hard is that to understand?

what we need and what we want is irrelavent :facepalm:

So like many others, you know Thorn isn't upto the job but you blame SISU for not sacking him and bring in a fresh face?

smileycov · Dec 21, 2011

You on drugs? blame doesn't come into it.

They have not and will not spend money.

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

smileycov said:
You on drugs? blame doesn't come into it.

They have not and will not spend money.

Blame doesn't come into it? How do you work that out?

Thorn has made so many mistakes... its scary that you can defend the fella...

We are a laughing stock on and off the pitch. Thorn and SISU are to blame collectively

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

torchomatic said:
And imagine if he said:

“It would be massive to beat Bristol who are down in the bottom half as well, but I don't think we will as we are piss poor."

Then, folks like you would be starting hysterical threads. Give the guy some slack.

He's had 23 games of slack, Mr Torchy...I appreciate that your are one of the most patient post-ers on here (as witnessed by your support for SISU until recent weeks), but even you've got to admit that AT is taking us down...he has to step aside to allow someone else a chance to try and get more out of these players...whether that happens or not is something we just don't know, but we cannot let this looming 'car crash' under AT continue without changing the driver.

smileycov · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
Blame doesn't come into it? How do you work that out?

Thorn has made so many mistakes... its scary that you can defend the fella...

We are a laughing stock on and off the pitch. Thorn and SISU are to blame collectively

I was refering AS YOU KNOW to this your previous quote: So like many others, you know Thorn isn't upto the job but you blame SISU for not sacking him and bring in a fresh face?

You said like others i blame SISU , didnt mention that did i? I pointed out the fact they will not sack him or replace him beacuse it costs money.

I am not sure if you are just out to wind people up or you are an idiot!! Beacuse you pick and choose your words, twist everything to suit your Anti thorn rants. WE HAVE NO MONEY SO NO ONE IS GOING ANYWHERE, EXCEPT PLAYERS BEING SOLD

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

Who would you replace him with, baring in mind you are assuming the role and midset of SISU. I'll make it easy for you... you have a choice of Lee Carsley, Gregor Rioch, Steve Harrison or Ken Dulieu.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

Otis said:
No, what is ridiculous is the manager suddenly out of the blue saying he thinks we will win after never saying it before and after an absolutely terrible run of form and no win since October.

Otis he is saying this as he has said every other possible comment under the sun over the past 23 games.

A clueless manager running out of things to say...as the ideas ran out long ago....

ashbyjan · Dec 21, 2011

LBB - its not even a question of getting someone else in to do the job - most right minded people can see we have a 1st Div team lead by (at best) a 1st div manager but SISU will not spend the money necessary to bring someone else in. They wouldn't pay for a loan player so I hardly think they are going to stump up £100k or whatever to pay off AT and then employ someone new. I am as disappointed as anyone by the job AT is doing but we are stuck with him until new owners take over.
Want rid off AT? Then help get rid of SISU and maybe new owners will either give AT the tools to do the job or get someone better in - Save Our City - SISU OUT

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
Who would you replace him with, baring in mind you are assuming the role and midset of SISU. I'll make it easy for you... you have a choice of Lee Carsley, Gregor Rioch, Steve Harrison or Ken Dulieu.

How can you say who would take over...what do the fans know of who is available and who would take the job????

Granted, it isn't likely to be Kevin Keegan...but what do we know of the managerial possibilities?

Whoever takes over will be better than AT if he wins more than 2 games for the rest of the season....

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

smileycov said:
I was refering AS YOU KNOW to this your previous quote: So like many others, you know Thorn isn't upto the job but you blame SISU for not sacking him and bring in a fresh face?

You said like others i blame SISU , didnt mention that did i? I pointed out the fact they will not sack him or replace him beacuse it costs money.

I am not sure if you are just out to wind people up or you are an idiot!! Beacuse you pick and choose your words, twist everything to suit your Anti thorn rants. WE HAVE NO MONEY SO NO ONE IS GOING ANYWHERE, EXCEPT PLAYERS BEING SOLD

So you have to revert to name calling do you? Idiot... priceless

Take away all equations and answer this question.

Has Thorn done a decent job? Simple yes or no will suffice.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

ashbyjan said:
LBB - its not even a question of getting someone else in to do the job - most right minded people can see we have a 1st Div team lead by (at best) a 1st div manager but SISU will not spend the money necessary to bring someone else in. They wouldn't pay for a loan player so I hardly think they are going to stump up £100k or whatever to pay off AT and then employ someone new. I am as disappointed as anyone by the job AT is doing but we are stuck with him until new owners take over.
Want rid off AT? Then help get rid of SISU and maybe new owners will either give AT the tools to do the job or get someone better in - Save Our City - SISU OUT

AJ, I agree, but the off-field mess will take longer to sort out.....the short-term is about what we see on the pitch. Relegation to Div 1 is unthinkable, it is, as Uncle Ray said (as he pocketed his £250k a year) "...armageddon.."...so we should be trying everything to get to that 4th from bottom position. I fear that AT will use up another 5/6 games of his clueless tactics before he is sacked, and thus give the new incumbent an 'impossible' job...it's looking pretty unlikely as we satnd at the moment.

On another note, respect to you & Brinner for your efforts...as I bigged you up on the phone-in on Friday. At least you lads are doing something.

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

LeamingtonBootBoy said:
How can you say who would take over...what do the fans know of who is available and who would take the job????

Granted, it isn't likely to be Kevin Keegan...but what do we know of the managerial possibilities?

Whoever takes over will be better than AT if he wins more than 2 games for the rest of the season....

We have SISU in charge, we can make an educated guess of the managerial possibilities. I understand your frustration. Now tell me, basing it on what we know of SISU's investment and the fact AT is a rookie manager, promoted from Chief Scout and potentially on the lowest wages in the League... who would you (as SISU) hire? Basing it on what we know, it would be one of the options I listed. Someone suggested Sean O'Driscoll. Do we need to state learned facts about SISU again and state why this precludes them from sacking one manager and then employing a quite well regarded manager with well over 500 games managerial experience? No. You are shouting 'Thorn Out'. Shout '(insert name here) In' and this oft repeated argument would have a whole lot more significance.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
So you have to revert to name calling do you? Idiot... priceless

Take away all equations and answer this question.

Has Thorn done a decent job? Simple yes or no will suffice.

No.

Admittedly, his hands are tied, but he has the option to walk...by staying he is accepting his situation. The league table is a numbers game, and AT knows that...it judges him to be a complete and utter failure.

If he feels that the situation is so poor, he should show some professional pride and quit...that's what I would do at work if I felt my gaffer was not giving me the tools to do the job.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
We have SISU in charge, we can make an educated guess of the managerial possibilities. I understand your frustration. Now tell me, basing it on what we know of SISU's investment and the fact AT is a rookie manager, promoted from Chief Scout and potentially on the lowest wages in the League... who would you (as SISU) hire? Basing it on what we know, it would be one of the options I listed. Someone suggested Sean O'Driscoll. Do we need to state learned facts about SISU again and state why this precludes them from sacking one manager and then employing a quite well regarded manager with well over 500 games managerial experience? No. You are shouting 'Thorn Out'. Shout '(insert name here) In' and this oft repeated argument would have a whole lot more significance.

I didn't expect £500k to be made available to buy a striker at the end of the transfer window...another AT 'success'...so, perhaps O'Driscoll is not such a long-shot???

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

It was £400k and we had just recouped money from Ben Turner's sale. There was more outcry about the lack of any signing than there are calls for Thorn's head. The rest of the profit you mentioned seeped into SISU, let's keep our fingers crossed that they spend it on improving the football club. You're absolutely right, let's sack Thorn and keep our fingers crossed they hire someone. As long as it's not Ken, I'm sold.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

No, you are right...let's keep AT and watch another 2 wins in 23 games. I'm sold.

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
It was £400k and we had just recouped money from Ben Turner's sale. There was more outcry about the lack of any signing than there are calls for Thorn's head. The rest of the profit you mentioned seeped into SISU, let's keep our fingers crossed that they spend it on improving the football club. You're absolutely right, let's sack Thorn and keep our fingers crossed they hire someone. As long as it's not Ken, I'm sold.

Why do you and Smiley swerve one question all the time?

What good has Thorn done for us?

smileycov · Dec 21, 2011

CUS Wyken said:
So you have to revert to name calling do you? Idiot... priceless

Take away all equations and answer this question.

Has Thorn done a decent job? Simple yes or no will suffice.

Thanks for confirming the fact you pick and choose the words to suit! I SAID I AM NOT SURE IF YOU ARE AN IDIOT OR JUST TRYING TO WIND PEOPLE UP!! i take it's the later.
So you think sisu will get us a new manager do you? They will pay out to bring much needed experience in? SIMPLE YES OR NO WILL SUFFICE

EleanorRigby · Dec 21, 2011

We have to stick with Andy Thorn until this takeover happens which i think will happen. How can you bring anybody into this mess, a mess admittedly that isn't all Thorn's fault but he's the one picking the team which isn't winning football matches. There's part of me that feels sorry for Thorn and what he has to work with but there's a bigger part of me that thinks he's not manager material or would have the long term support of the fans. If new owners do come in and stick with AT unless he hits the ground running a starts winning matches and regular fans will be on his back big time and quick, seems harsh i know but this is football

LeamingtonBootBoy · Dec 21, 2011

Lads, we all want the same...to get out of this mess.

The bottom line is a question of whether AT will improve his record of 2 wins in 23 games, to a record of around 9 or 10 wins in the next 23 games.

If the answer is no, then my opinion is to move AT aside and get someone in who will have a better win ratio.....I don't care if that's Bobby Gould, as long as we have improvement on the current dire stats we have witnessed.

CUS Wyken · Dec 21, 2011

smileycov said:
Thanks for confirming the fact you pick and choose the words to suit! I SAID I AM NOT SURE IF YOU ARE AN IDIOT OR JUST TRYING TO WIND PEOPLE UP!! i take it's the later.
So you think sisu will get us a new manager do you? They will pay out to bring much needed experience in? SIMPLE YES OR NO WILL SUFFICE

haha what a mug you are. You still cant answer that question can you?

Anyone will do a better job then Thorn right now. Anyone.... he is useless and the league table backs it up.

He has no back up plan, same old drivel comes out his mouth, same predictable football and his man managment skills are shocking.

None of the above has anything to do with SISU and everything to do with Thorns bad managment.

You keep swerving the simple question with your capslock on...

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Dec 21, 2011

Yeah, it might have been a bit petulant, but the discussion was going round in circles. You advocate sacking the manager, I am stating this will not happen and your frustrations are misguided. We are not going to agree and the same discussion appears on almost every thread (this one was about Gardner not so long ago).

I am disappointed with our plight.
I do not hold Thorn entirely responsible for it.
I have seen tactical errors.
I have seen decisions I agree with.
I am most frustrated with SISU.
I am then frustrated with underperforming players.
I am then frustrated with Thorn.
I think we have hired and fired too freely.
I think we will go down.
I am as near as certain as I can be that SISU are in it for the money and Thorn is the cheapest option.

I'm done here, good luck!

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