Recent comments - 'Coffee's' post (1 Viewer)

[Yorkshire SB]

Due to becoming generally disenchanted with all things Coventry City, I have avoided this forum for a good few months.

However, I have just read the entire thread created by the user I shall name, 'Coffee', and thought I could review it's contents for my own understanding and possibly other's.
Sidenote - it was disappointing to see Coffee ridiculed in an often petty, childish manner for hosting an opinion that differed to the majority.

First of all, SISU inherited (saved us from Admin at the final hour) a mess. The club was hemorrhaging money (rent, players wages). I remember hearing that for us to break-even we would have to have an average attendance of around 23k a week, or something like that. Clearly they have supported the losses throughout the years, but this has affected how much money they are able to invest into the side, both regarding transfers and wages. This lack of investment has been reflected in our flailing ambition, league performance and eventual relegation.

Evidently the rent situation, prior to the fall out, was generous towards ACL. Consequently their lack of cooperation when negotiating a lower rent agreement is unsurprising. I read a lot of comments which questioned why SISU were not agreeing a lower rent agreement or continuing to seek to purchase half of the stadium. This is for me where the issue lies. SISU are a company built upon investment, who will have to justify major business decisions to their investors. I believe SISU genuinely began the rent talks with the intention of negotiating a deal to purchase the stadium. They have been at this club long enough to know what they need to make this club sustainable and ultimately profitable. After numerous negotiations it is clear that ACL are not willing to sell the stadium at an acceptable price, or one that is a rationale economic decision for SISU, and SISU do not want to continue renting the stadium as this will not generate the capital they need.

Obviously there isn't a single fan that wants to see the club playing outside of the city. However, the business relationship between ACL and SISU is beyond reconciliation. SISU cannot continue to wait around paying rent on a stadium that will never be theirs, their investors will not allow it. Nor will ACL allow SISU to continue playing at the ricoh whilst they build a new stadium for the club.

Therefore the alternative is to play at another ground whilst a ground is built that SISU will own. By this method there will be a plan in place for SISU to recover their lost capital, which will remain unachievable by staying at the ricoh.

The issues are whether SISU are acting on behalf of their best interests or the club's, and will they own the new stadium or will the Club. Whilst SISU own us I think we have to accept that this is as close as we will get to owning our own stadium, and that their best interests are somewhat inherently linked to our own.

I may be completely off the money here and appear a bit ignorant to the bigger picture, as I haven't followed this forum much over the previous weeks, but the way I see it whilst SISU own us, we will not play at the ricoh. If we could change owners then great, we'd be back at the ricoh, paying over the odds for ACL's share in the ground and on our way back to the Championship in a sustainable situation, but we're not. SISU want a return on their investment and therefore will move the club outside of Coventry until the new stadium is built. I believe this will happen regardless of where 7 thousands fans turn up at Sixfields or 1 thousand.

 

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[Astute]

SISU cannot continue to wait around paying rent on a stadium that will never be theirs, their investors will not allow it. Nor will ACL allow SISU to continue playing at the ricoh whilst they build a new stadium for the club.

SISU paying rent? When did that last happen?

We all want our club to own its own ground again. The problem is that if SISU got it we wouldn't own it. They would. They are in it for the money. They are not in it for our good. If there was a guarantee that they would sell us once they had their hands on the ground and the ground went with the club I would be fully behind it. They would make much more keeping it though. And that is what they are all about.

 

[dongonzalos]

Due to becoming generally disenchanted with all things Coventry City, I have avoided this forum for a good few months.

However, I have just read the entire thread created by the user I shall name, 'Coffee', and thought I could review it's contents for my own understanding and possibly other's.
Sidenote - it was disappointing to see Coffee ridiculed in an often petty, childish manner for hosting an opinion that differed to the majority.

First of all, SISU inherited (saved us from Admin at the final hour) a mess. The club was hemorrhaging money (rent, players wages). I remember hearing that for us to break-even we would have to have an average attendance of around 23k a week, or something like that. Clearly they have supported the losses throughout the years, but this has affected how much money they are able to invest into the side, both regarding transfers and wages. This lack of investment has been reflected in our flailing ambition, league performance and eventual relegation.

Evidently the rent situation, prior to the fall out, was generous towards ACL. Consequently their lack of cooperation when negotiating a lower rent agreement is unsurprising. I read a lot of comments which questioned why SISU were not agreeing a lower rent agreement or continuing to seek to purchase half of the stadium. This is for me where the issue lies. SISU are a company built upon investment, who will have to justify major business decisions to their investors. I believe SISU genuinely began the rent talks with the intention of negotiating a deal to purchase the stadium. They have been at this club long enough to know what they need to make this club sustainable and ultimately profitable. After numerous negotiations it is clear that ACL are not willing to sell the stadium at an acceptable price, or one that is a rationale economic decision for SISU, and SISU do not want to continue renting the stadium as this will not generate the capital they need.

Obviously there isn't a single fan that wants to see the club playing outside of the city. However, the business relationship between ACL and SISU is beyond reconciliation. SISU cannot continue to wait around paying rent on a stadium that will never be theirs, their investors will not allow it. Nor will ACL allow SISU to continue playing at the ricoh whilst they build a new stadium for the club.

Therefore the alternative is to play at another ground whilst a ground is built that SISU will own. By this method there will be a plan in place for SISU to recover their lost capital, which will remain unachievable by staying at the ricoh.

The issues are whether SISU are acting on behalf of their best interests or the club's, and will they own the new stadium or will the Club. Whilst SISU own us I think we have to accept that this is as close as we will get to owning our own stadium, and that their best interests are somewhat inherently linked to our own.

I may be completely off the money here and appear a bit ignorant to the bigger picture, as I haven't followed this forum much over the previous weeks, but the way I see it whilst SISU own us, we will not play at the ricoh. If we could change owners then great, we'd be back at the ricoh, paying over the odds for ACL's share in the ground and on our way back to the Championship in a sustainable situation, but we're not. SISU want a return on their investment and therefore will move the club outside of Coventry until the new stadium is built. I believe this will happen regardless of where 7 thousands fans turn up at Sixfields or 1 thousand.

Can you now review the alternative opinion. SISU cannot afford to build a new stadium. It is not economically viable.
They actually do not intend to build one.
The purpose of moving out is to break ACL.
However there is a massive chance ACL may break even or make a profit via alternative business ventures.
Then the gamble fails we end up with no new stadium, no Ricoh, no CCFC.

Also 400k rent and 80% f&b could have made this club attractive to other buyers especially following a successful promotion campaign. This was rejected as SISU were on the verge of getting the lot for a bargain until the council stepped in.
If you were about to get a 100 quid and over night it becomes a fiver. Your fiver suddenly seems less attractive. Yet until any mentioned the 100 quid a while ago you would have been chuffed with the fiver.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

How do you know SISU cannot afford to build a new stadium? If the decision is seen as economically rationale and is supported by their investors then it might be viable. What they won't do is continue with a rental agreement that is unsustainable, or pay over the odds for a share in the Ricoh. If they build a new stadium, the money that is spent isn't immediately lost or wasted, that stadium is theirs and it is worth more than they spent to build it. Therefore it is a venture that is economically rationale and will be supported by their investors.

SISU want some return on their investment, or at least to recuperate some of their losses. To do this, they either need to own half of the Ricoh, or they need a new stadium that both makes the club sustainable and also increases the value of the club for when they do sell the club.

Dongonzalos - you state the purpose is to break ACL and there is no intention to build a new stadium...If you know this, then surely ACL are well aware and are consequently laughing at SISU's attempts.

Astute - I agree, the issue is that SISU will own the stadium. However they are not looking to own the stadium and then sit on it like ACL, they would look to sell the club on in an attractive state, with the stadium as a part of the package, possibly after a few seasons of them attempting to recuperate their losses.

 

[Sky Blues]

However they are not looking to own the stadium and then sit on it like ACL, they would look to sell the club on in an attractive state, with the stadium as a part of the package, possibly after a few seasons of them attempting to recuperate their losses.

Please can you include a reference to your source for this information? Thanks.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Please can you include a reference to your source for this information? Thanks.

I cannot, this is my opinion.

 

[dongonzalos]

Unfortunately I feel ACL are fully aware of this. Hence the possibility of them or the council coming cap in hand to SISU will never happen. They will go full throttle into trying other business ventures.

The only way this mess will resolve itself is if SISU have a second thought that their bluff will not work and request to sign that deal that was on the table.

Unfortunately I think they will want to purchase some land and at least see a year of how the Ricoh goes without CCFC.

My gut feeling tells me in that time irreversible plans will be put into place for the Ricoh and SISU and us the fans will be the loser.

Why I don't think it is economically viable?

It seems I would guess less than 1000 Coventry fans are prepared to travel to Northampton.

Over three years this leads to a dramatic loss in revenue for FFP. So it is likely we will struggle and maybe get relegated.

Many fans over the three years will find alternative lifestyle hobbies and will get out of the habit of attending the city ever second week.

These fans will be lost potentially for ever but certainly under SISU's reign.

Many fans would refuse to attend a new stadium due to the link with SISU after they have taken the club away from the city. In the fans eyes when they was a different route to take.

Say SISU manage to cover the loses during the three years. We will either be performing very badly in division 3 or a division 4 team.

They then pay 20-30 million for a new 10 k stadium in the outskirts of Coventry ( guesstimates)

We are apparently 75 million in debt

By now we will be 100 million plus in debt,

His do SISU then exit with their 10k stadium in the outskirts of Coventry and a division 4 team,

It is a game of chicken one we the fans and SISU will lose.

 

[Yorkshire SB]

Dongonzalos
I take your point, and I agree it seems a pointless venture when there is a world class stadium already in the city. However, I don't believe ACL want to sell their share in the stadium, at least not at a reasonable price, and SISU do not want to enter into a rental agreement. It's difficult to see a happy resolution.
Do you not think that if SISU sign the original deal that they are just prolonging the inevitable (despite the rent being a lot lower)? The damage was done when we signed the original rent deal, since then it has been a club losing money year on year, there has to be a radical change.

 

[mattylad]

I don't understand why this isn't in the original thread? ?

 

[Sky Blues]

I cannot, this is my opinion.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[procdoc]

All of a sudden there seems to be a lot of new posters with a pro Sisu agenda. Now I'm not saying they are plants to try and convince the majority that what Sisu are planning is a good thing. I will let others suggest that but I completely disagree with this post and also that coffee clown too.
What all these new posters seem to forget is that Sisu agreed a new, much better, rent deal but then reneged the offer. They then threatened to liquidate the club which forced ACL's hand. Despite all of this ACL NEVER evicted us when well within their rights to do so.
Now we are moving to a 7, 600 capacity shed and some people think this is the right course of action, it astounds me that some people will back these clowns to the hilt. I'll get called out on this but those people can't be real supporters.

 

[dongonzalos]

Dongonzalos
I take your point, and I agree it seems a pointless venture when there is a world class stadium already in the city. However, I don't believe ACL want to sell their share in the stadium, at least not at a reasonable price, and SISU do not want to enter into a rental agreement. It's difficult to see a happy resolution.
Do you not think that if SISU sign the original deal that they are just prolonging the inevitable (despite the rent being a lot lower)? The damage was done when we signed the original rent deal, since then it has been a club losing money year on year, there has to be a radical change.

I find it very strange that other people seem to think that purchasing half of the rights to Ricoh is economically viable?

SISU do not agree with ACL's price however others do. Surely that then becomes the market value?

Which do you think is more likely to sell.....

SISU owning ACL and CCFC and selling the two as a package.

SISU owning CCFC having a moderate rent agreed and having 80% of f & b fir the Ricoh. having a successful promotion campaign. Then sell a stable club entering the championship

SISU owning its own 10k stadium on the outskirts of the city possibly whilst in the fourth division having to recoup at least 100 million.

Which one are they going to lose the least money on?

I am convinced they have chose a different route

Ground share, hope ACL go out of business. Buy ACL on the cheap.
Buy land as part of the bluff. Take ages organising planning permission for the land.
Sell the land for slightly more than it cost.

This route comes with a massive gamble that ACL break.

 

[fernandopartridge]

However there is a massive chance ACL may break even or make a profit via alternative business ventures.
Then the gamble fails we end up with no new stadium, no Ricoh, no CCFC.

Based on what evidence?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Based on what evidence?

Based on accounts!! You know those items that are submitted at the year end to companies house

 

[dongonzalos]

Based on what evidence?

Purely my opinion

A 32 k stadium currently tied in to the football club.

It makes money when only 10k fans turn up and it is not paid rent.

It has plans for a train station to be built.

I can't believe they won't get any options to have other sports in there.

Do far more concerts.

Or sell to someone who wants to do those things.

I just can't see them going back to SISU saying please come back

 

[Astute]

Dongonzalos - you state the purpose is to break ACL and there is no intention to build a new stadium...If you know this, then surely ACL are well aware and are consequently laughing at SISU's attempts.

Astute - I agree, the issue is that SISU will own the stadium. However they are not looking to own the stadium and then sit on it like ACL, they would look to sell the club on in an attractive state, with the stadium as a part of the package, possibly after a few seasons of them attempting to recuperate their losses.

They have already tried to break ACL. They said they would only pay a fair rent. They got it offered at £400,000 a year. To do this they refinanced the loan so they could do it cheaper. Did SISU start paying the rent again? No. They threatened taking ACL to court as the council had got a cheap loan that stopped ACL going under. That was bad enough, but now they want a ground share where the local council are providing the local club with a loan of £15,000,000 :thinking about:

You say ACL want to keep the ground. Higgs openly said they wanted to sell their stake. They wasn't after a profit. SISU saw they were in a bit of trouble at the time. They could have had a stake in the ground for 6m. They saw a chance of getting the whole thing cheaply. It went wrong. This is when they threatened court action. You say they want to sell us in an attractive state. They have made us into a mid table Div 3 side. Not doing a good job of anything except ruining our club. Yet some would trust them with the Ricoh :facepalm:

 

[fernandopartridge]

Based on accounts!! You know those items that are submitted at the year end to companies house

Do you mean the accounts based on receiving £1.2m per annum in rent AND the food and beverage income from CCFC playing at the stadium at least 23 times a year?

I don't know why there is a belief that the Ricoh could hold more concerts, the number of artists who play big stadium gigs is quite small. They can only realistically take place during the summer.

I also don't think the prospect of attracting another sports team as a tenant is realistic. Who would it be? Why would they play at the Ricoh?

 

[dongonzalos]

Do you mean the accounts based on receiving £1.2m per annum in rent AND the food and beverage income from CCFC playing at the stadium at least 23 times a year?

I don't know why there is a belief that the Ricoh could hold more concerts, the number of artists who play big stadium gigs is quite small. They can only realistically take place during the summer.

I also don't think the prospect of attracting another sports team as a tenant is realistic. Who would it be? Why would they play at the Ricoh?

Who said anything about wanting to have someone else play there?
I want CCFC there

I am just been realistic about what I think will happen

(I think) SISU think after a year of no CCFC at the Ricoh ACL will sell to SISU to save them, dirt cheap.

However personally I think ACL will get more concerts one 36k concert brings the same crowd as three cov games

23 cov games 8 extra concerts in a year to replace Coventry.

That's if you don't attract any other sports usage.

That pitch used to have to be protected if it doesn't you have a big space and seating for 32 thousand people who know what uses it could have.

 

[dadgad]

All of a sudden there seems to be a lot of new posters with a pro Sisu agenda. Now I'm not saying they are plants to try and convince the majority that what Sisu are planning is a good thing. I will let others suggest that but I completely disagree with this post and also that coffee clown too.
What all these new posters seem to forget is that Sisu agreed a new, much better, rent deal but then reneged the offer. They then threatened to liquidate the club which forced ACL's hand. Despite all of this ACL NEVER evicted us when well within their rights to do so.
Now we are moving to a 7, 600 capacity shed and some people think this is the right course of action, it astounds me that some people will back these clowns to the hilt. I'll get called out on this but those people can't be real supporters.

Not by me. They (Sisu) are clearly desperate to justify their current stance. This is part of the charm offensive.
They have little or no support.
This is just the latest asinine decision which is making the club less and less sustainable while they claim the opposite.

 

[Davs]

Living on the far side of Rugby, and with my son now living in Daventry, Sixfields is actually more convenient for us. However, neither of us will watch a CCFC team play home games outside the City. If we were ManUre [a team who can genuinely argue to have massive support throughout the Country] this whole idea would have been stopped, but as it is "just" Cov, no-one with any authority appears to give a shit

Having said this, I am still unconvinced that we will ever play a home game at Sixfields [or anywhere else outside the City for that matter]

BUT if we do [and I must admit my confidence that we won't is getting shaky] I do not think CCFC in it's current guise will ever play a home game in Coventry area again.

I suspect that back to back relegations will see us merge Birmingham City or something equally horrific, with SISU ot their apologists saying that it was always an unsustainable business model or some other crap.

 

[dadgad]

They (Sisu) have run this club appallingly and yet their cronies still, unbelievably, try and blame the intransigence of others.
NOPennyM

 

[lordsummerisle]

However personally I think ACL will get more concerts one 36k concert brings the same crowd as three cov games

23 cov games 8 extra concerts in a year to replace Coventry.

Where(and when) will these 8 extra concerts happen?

As Fernando said, there are only a certain amount of people touring each year who could justify a 32,000 capacity venue.

They have only managed two this year, when there are actually a few about on the circuit, but for some reason they have chosen to play elsewhere(Robbie Williams and Bon Jovi to name but two).

 

[Nick]

Is is like Thorn all over again, the hardcore SISU out people are the same ones that Thorn was the messiah!

 

[Seyeclops666]

It is no coincidence that we are getting a load of new posters on this site (with long winded defences of SISU) as it becomes increasingly obvious that the failed SISU plan to stress ACL, pick up the stadium on the cheap and then charge CCFC for use (no doubt on worse terms than currently/previously offered by ACL) has been exposed and their bluff called. When will some of you idiots realise that we all want CCFC to own the ground and get match day revenues to make the club sustainable and to move back up the leagues where we belong BUT we do not believe that SISU are responsible owners who have CCFC's interests at heart - they just want the stadium and always have. Some of you are so blind (or are SISU stooges) that you would give SISU everything they wanted - many of us know that this would be a disaster and the final nail in the coffin for CCFC. Once these feckers go then I will join with you to call for CCFC to own at least half the ground and match day revenues - but not with these dicks in charge!!

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

ACL need CCFC at the Ricoh......its fucking obvious isn't it....

....without 10-12K football fans visiting every other week.....how happy do you think the Casino & Compass Ltd. are going to be.....

Answer....not very.

Some people really need to engage their brain a bit more......

....Yeah, yeah, yeah.....I know...I must also be Tim Fisher.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Is is like Thorn all over again, the hardcore SISU out people are the same ones that Thorn was the messiah!

For most of the hardcore SISU out people Coleman and Sisu were also Messiah's.

It's the fact that they are consistently wrong that almost makes me reconsider my opposition to SISU.

 

[lordsummerisle]

It is no coincidence that we are getting a load of new posters on this site (with long winded defences of SISU) as it becomes increasingly obvious that the failed SISU plan to stress ACL, pick up the stadium on the cheap and then charge CCFC for use (no doubt on worse terms than currently/previously offered by ACL) has been exposed and their bluff called. When will some of you idiots realise that we all want CCFC to own the ground and get match day revenues to make the club sustainable and to move back up the leagues where we belong BUT we do not believe that SISU are responsible owners who have CCFC's interests at heart - they just want the stadium and always have. Some of you are so blind (or are SISU stooges) that you would give SISU everything they wanted - many of us know that this would be a disaster and the final nail in the coffin for CCFC. Once these feckers go then I will join with you to call for CCFC to own at least half the ground and match day revenues - but not with these dicks in charge!!

Not another everybody new who posts is Fisher or a SISU stooge?

Fuck me.

Doubt very much that SISU are interested in our "hearts and minds".

 

[dongonzalos]

For most of the hardcore SISU out people Coleman and Sisu were also Messiah's.

It's the fact that they are consistently wrong that almost makes me reconsider my opposition to SISU.

Was that the opposition that you had from the very beginning 'yawn'

 

[Nick]

Maybe some people are getting fed up with reading and in the moment they are signing up and posting too?

Just because somebody has a balanced view and can see it from all sides it doesn't mean they work for sisu because they aren't foaming at the mouth and chanting SISU OUT or NOT ONE PENNY MORE after every sentence.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Was that the opposition that you had from the very beginning 'yawn'

Got your Nuneaton Sky Blues Shirt yet?

 

[dongonzalos]

Maybe some people are getting fed up with reading and in the moment they are signing up and posting too?

Just because somebody has a balanced view and can see it from all sides it doesn't mean they work for sisu because they aren't foaming at the mouth and chanting SISU OUT or NOT ONE PENNY MORE after every sentence.

Yep maybe they are as above.

Maybe they are one existing poster from here with multiple access to computers at work in different locations on different servers and a different one at home who uses different identities.

Or maybe they are SISU related ( who would blame them)
However if their argument was a good one they would be able to say they are SISU.

I don't really care which it is

However, I think rather than shout them down saying SISU employee. Debate their points.
Get into the nitty gritty of the argument.
Building a new stadium is a financial farce.
Having the concept discussed in here is a good thing.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

For most of the hardcore SISU out people Coleman and Sisu were also Messiah's.

It's the fact that they are consistently wrong that almost makes me reconsider my opposition to SISU.

Not everyone though, eh. Sorry, I have to point that out every time you make this point. Which is at least once a week!

As for the second point...

 

[dongonzalos]

Got your Nuneaton Sky Blues Shirt yet?

Who knows what ACL and Mr Haskell are planning

 

[dongonzalos]

Not everyone though, eh. Sorry, I have to point that out every time you make this point. Which is at least once a week!

As for the second point...

And don't forget he was against SISU from the beginning that's worth a mention twice a week

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Maybe some people are getting fed up with reading and in the moment they are signing up and posting too?

Just because somebody has a balanced view and can see it from all sides it doesn't mean they work for sisu because they aren't foaming at the mouth and chanting SISU OUT or NOT ONE PENNY MORE after every sentence.

Seeing it from both sides is fine...I'm sure you can understand Apartheid and The Moors Murderers a lot more if you try and see things from the perpetrators perspective. They were still wrong, though...