David O'Day
Well-Known Member
The problem is that if you try to are trying to classify something as AS by 6 degrees of separation you cheapen the value fight against real AS in the Labour Party or society at large.
The problem is, I'm guessing the majority of not all posting opinions on this thread are not Jewish and haven't experienced or don't understand AS, so dont understand the nuances on what on the face of it looks like a completely innocent comment.
It looks tenuous at best but give the what the labour party have gone through with AS, Starmer had to act decisively, the jewish community have welcomed his swift action and the matter should be done and dusted. She has lost her job, she is still an mp.
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‘For the many not the few’ worked well for a Labour in 2017. Boris’ ‘Get Brexit done’ was even better in 2019.
‘For the many not the few’ worked well for a Labour in 2017. Boris’ ‘Get Brexit done’ was even better in 2019.
I wonder how Dom will feel when Boris gets shunted out holding the can for Cov-ID and replaced by Gove.Hopefully it's still the current PM as they way he is going the slogan for Labour in 2024 can be "Lads it's Boris!"
I wonder how Dom will feel when Boris gets shunted out holding the can for Cov-ID and replaced by Gove.
To be honest though you put all the stuff he suggests in the manifesto and most of it won't get looked at by the vast majority of people. So you could have all of that but focus the message on a couple of policies that you think will play well, keep the message simple rather than focus on specifics and get a decent three word slogan.
‘For the many not the few’ worked well for a Labour in 2017. Boris’ ‘Get Brexit done’ was even better in 2019.
I’d actually like to see someone with educational experience in one of these roles. And when I say experience I don’t mean ‘went to private school’Has anyone actually been name as her replacement yet? No one seems to be mentioning names if they have
Emma Hardy who is a junior shadow education minister is a teacherI’d actually like to see someone with educational experience in one of these roles. And when I say experience I don’t mean ‘went to private school’
Not sure there is anyone in Labour that fits that remit.
I think they are all fair and reasonable points, and I also feel that can easily co-exist with some socialist policies that are generally popular with the public. What concerns me (and I guess I am also soul-searching politically too) is that your suggestions only seem to go in hand with an ambivalence to austerity and a general ignorance of those in society that are most vulnerable... it has certainly seemed that way in the past. Maybe things can change - something definitely needs to.
I would also add to your list some radical action on housing needs to be part of the plan as well as an effective policy on environmental and green matters.
These are all good points, I guess I'm just close to thinking that no matter what they did, they wouldn't win because of the electoral maths or the Tory machine churning out some soundbites, holding up some pints and picking up another majority. Just a Scandinavian born in the wrong country haha
I think you’re in the weeds of detail too much. Majority of swing voters go with the mood of the country rather than a detailed policy analysis and stuff like devolution means nothing outside of the politically engaged who have made their mind up already.
There’s two routes to power in the U.K.: you marry the liberal student cities with the socially conservative working class over a left wing economic program both support. That means patriotism, tough on crime and benefits cheats, immigration controls, plus investment in services and infrastructure.
Or you go right wing economics, low tax, low regulation, and try and get the Lib Dem and soft Tory vote.
What you can’t do is the Corbyn tactic of left wing liberalism of the students and woke middle class because they’re all concentrated in the same place.
Social attitude studies show consistently the U.K. is a left wing socially conservative country. IMO that’s the Labour route to power. Marry some element of Corbynite economics and investment with a focus on jobs and training, with a tabloid style social conservatism. That was Blair’s route and it doesn’t mean you can’t do liberal things like improving conditions for minorities, but you need the political capital from the country by draping yourself in the flag and hating the same things they do.
As a Labour member for the economics first and the social stuff second that’s fine by me but you’ll lose a lot of young idealistic activists which some would have an issue with. Personally I think the ground war is less and less important these days.
That would be a start - someone with experience of the area. There will still be numerous civil servants in the department but I feel it would help.Emma Hardy who is a junior shadow education minister is a teacher
He's not going to achieve keeping hold of the uni cities if he eliminates any sign of left wingers in his shadow cabinet.Blue Labour does reject the Blairist assumptions of the free market. Combining a generally more ‘left wing’ economic platform with conservative social policies. Which frankly, seems to be the basis of a populist ticket.
Broadly speaking, I’m a fan of nationalising some things (Royal Mail, railroads), but also generally accept the assumptions of competition in the marketplace and capitalism being the better than the state for driving people out of poverty.
Essentially, it’s Labour’s answer to ‘One Nation Toryism’.
One of issues with the last Labour manifestos is the detail. Yes, this sound counterintuitive. But, if you’re in a position where you need to explain and justify the policies, you’re opening yourself up to criticism.
For Labour, shiny policies of ‘this, that and the other’ and ‘x, y & z’ whilst having an incoherent, confusing policy (for the average voter) on Brexit was a recipe for disaster.
Upon becoming leader of the Labour Party, Corbyn could’ve done with reading Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ and ‘The New Machiavelli’ by Blair’s Chief of Staff.
You’ve broadly summed up what I wanted to say in a high level manner. BSB asked what I wanted
The ‘Ground War’ - takes me back to my elections module at Uni. For me, social media is a new and key battleground for ‘the ground war’. The traditional ground war, I agree, is generally becoming less important.
I agree with you on Corbyn. Ironically, the rise of ‘wokeness’ has impacted traditional left wing parties the most. Judging from the UK and USA, this help drive a wedge between traditional and predominantly white working class voters have deserted their traditional ‘homes’.
It’s difficult for Starmer, I feel like he needs to simultaneously do the following things: win back his social conservative base, keep the new metropolitan students in uni towns, convince the electorate he’s not going to bankrupt the economy, whilst not coming off as a soft Tory. Convince voters he’s tough on antisemitism and racism in his own party.
It’s a tough gig, and despite a promising start, I cannot envisage a Labour victory at the next election at this moment. At least, it’s early in the parliament.
He's not going to achieve keeping hold of the uni cities if he eliminates any sign of left wingers in his shadow cabinet.
But there is a vacancy for shadow education secretary. If he just goes rightward then he'll lose a lot of trust. His whole pitch was building a coalition across the party, he's not even 6 months in yet and that could be tatters. Labour doesn't have the benefit of huge corporate donations and needs to be funded by mass membership, if RLB's replacement isn't from that wing of the party then I think he'll lose a significant number of that membership.RLB refuses to delete the tweet and apologise. In fact, trying to justify herself was possibly the worst thing to do there. As a leader, you’d be foolish not to get rid of her in that circumstance.
Starmer gave her way out, and RLB didn’t want to, which is fine.
Also, the people who voted for Corbyn in 2015, I was one of whom, are not loyal to RLB. In fact, the thought of electing RLB off the back of that election defeat was a disheartening thought. Rating that election campaign as 10/10 showed just how politically unaware RLB was.
He's not going to achieve keeping hold of the uni cities if he eliminates any sign of left wingers in his shadow cabinet.
Blue Labour does reject the Blairist assumptions of the free market. Combining a generally more ‘left wing’ economic platform with conservative social policies. Which frankly, seems to be the basis of a populist ticket.
Broadly speaking, I’m a fan of nationalising some things (Royal Mail, railroads), but also generally accept the assumptions of competition in the marketplace and capitalism being the better than the state for driving people out of poverty.
Essentially, it’s Labour’s answer to ‘One Nation Toryism’.
One of issues with the last Labour manifestos is the detail. Yes, this sound counterintuitive. But, if you’re in a position where you need to explain and justify the policies, you’re opening yourself up to criticism.
For Labour, shiny policies of ‘this, that and the other’ and ‘x, y & z’ whilst having an incoherent, confusing policy (for the average voter) on Brexit was a recipe for disaster.
Upon becoming leader of the Labour Party, Corbyn could’ve done with reading Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ and ‘The New Machiavelli’ by Blair’s Chief of Staff.
You’ve broadly summed up what I wanted to say in a high level manner. BSB asked what I wanted
The ‘Ground War’ - takes me back to my elections module at Uni. For me, social media is a new and key battleground for ‘the ground war’. The traditional ground war, I agree, is generally becoming less important.
I agree with you on Corbyn. Ironically, the rise of ‘wokeness’ has impacted traditional left wing parties the most. Judging from the UK and USA, this help drive a wedge between traditional and predominantly white working class voters have deserted their traditional ‘homes’.
It’s difficult for Starmer, I feel like he needs to simultaneously do the following things: win back his social conservative base, keep the new metropolitan students in uni towns, convince the electorate he’s not going to bankrupt the economy, whilst not coming off as a soft Tory. Convince voters he’s tough on antisemitism and racism in his own party.
It’s a tough gig, and despite a promising start, I cannot envisage a Labour victory at the next election at this moment. At least, it’s early in the parliament.
But there is a vacancy for shadow education secretary. If he just goes rightward then he'll lose a lot of trust. His whole pitch was building a coalition across the party, he's not even 6 months in yet and that could be tatters. Labour doesn't have the benefit of huge corporate donations and needs to be funded by mass membership, if RLB's replacement isn't from that wing of the party then I think he'll lose a significant number of that membership.
I do because this is where all the ideas have come from. If the right of the party had spent the last 5 years bringing good ideas to the table instead of sabotaging and writing shitty Guardian bitch pieces then we may have been in a different place. What have they brought to the table since 2015? It doesn’t mean all of the ideas from the left were good far from it, but they were at least contributingMissus and I are both under 30 uni grads who wouldn't give a toss about lefties in the shadow cabinet. Just no Diane Abbott please
I'm not defending RLB, I didn't vote for her. I'm saying this is the first real test of if KS wants to have a 'broad church' Labour Party or not.The priority for an opposition is forming a viable alternative to the current government. If he’s receiving criticism for saying ‘zero tolerance on AS’, then an important frontbencher is accused of RT’ing an ‘AS conspiracy’ and this creates a story, it doesn’t reflect well on Starmer, does it?
Corbyn’s perceived failure to address this issue damaged his, and Labour’s, credibility as a potential governing party. The polls reflect this sentiment very strongly. The wider electorate do not care about RLB being from the Left of the party? In fact, getting rid of someone so close to Corbyn will probably do him favours.
Starmer is in a very strong position, politically. He was a strong mandate from the membership and RPB, frankly, wasn’t that popular. In short, pretty dispensable if she messed up, which she did and refused to apologise.
Had Pidcock not lost her seat it would have been her on the ballot for leadership instead of RLB.The priority for an opposition is forming a viable alternative to the current government. If he’s receiving criticism for saying ‘zero tolerance on AS’, then an important frontbencher is accused of RT’ing an ‘AS conspiracy’ and this creates a story, it doesn’t reflect well on Starmer, does it?
Corbyn’s perceived failure to address this issue damaged his, and Labour’s, credibility as a potential governing party. The polls reflect this sentiment very strongly. The wider electorate do not care about RLB being from the Left of the party? In fact, getting rid of someone so close to Corbyn will probably do him favours.
Starmer is in a very strong position, politically. He was a strong mandate from the membership and RPB, frankly, wasn’t that popular. In short, pretty dispensable if she messed up, which she did and refused to apologise.
Could be wrong but pretty sure I read it’d take a bigger swing than 97 to win from where we are. Sadly I agree that I can’t see a Labour victory in 2024, though with corona and Brexit to come there’s every chance we’ll have a Tory party dealing with a massive recession and being blamed for maybe up to 100k deaths so never say never. Johnson’s magic doesn’t tend to last long term from what I’ve seen. Though I’d be surprised if he’s still there in 2024
Had Pidcock not lost her seat it would have been her on the ballot for leadership instead of RLB.
I liked Pidcock because she was direct when answering questions and wasn’t afraid to give back to interviewers that were trying to lead conversations somewhere else or misrepresent her. A lot of Labour MP’s would fare better in interviews if they didn’t always come across as starting from the back foot.I wasn’t inspired by either of Burgeon, Pidcock nor RLB. Angela Rayner, in my view, was the best candidate from the ‘left’ of the party. But, I think a Starmer and Rayner partnership is quite good. At least, as good as things can be at this stage!
I'm not defending RLB, I didn't vote for her. I'm saying this is the first real test of if KS wants to have a 'broad church' Labour Party or not.
Starmer wants to win an election so ditching the likes of Long Bailey is a strong message that he’s moving the party to the right which is a good thing
Had Pidcock not lost her seat it would have been her on the ballot for leadership instead of RLB.
I do because this is where all the ideas have come from. If the right of the party had spent the last 5 years bringing good ideas to the table instead of sabotaging and writing shitty Guardian bitch pieces then we may have been in a different place. What have they brought to the table since 2015? It doesn’t mean all of the ideas from the left were good far from it, but they were at least contributing
I want the best people in it irrespective of being allied to Corbyn or not
That doesn’t mean they can’t come from the left or are the exclusivity of the right.I want the best people in it irrespective of being allied to Corbyn or not
That doesn’t mean they can’t come from the left or are the exclusivity of the right.
The most annoying thing about the Labour left is it’s lack of talent. TBF that’s also the most annoying thing about the Labour right, but I’m less bothered about their politics being enacted.
Nothing on the level of a Sanders, AOC over here really. I’ve got my issues with both but both are excellent politicians.
Unfortunately Bernie just doesn't know how to play dirty and AOC has steadily backtracked from the progressive wing.
Not being pro Brexit worked for Labour in 2017, .
Yeah but they’re both ten times the politician of a Corbyn or a Pidcock. I wish there was someone articulate and savvy with left wing views I could follow TBH. I can’t respect any of the current SCG.
What worked was promising to go ahead and implement brexit. What was shown not to, in 2019, was to sit on the fence or threaten to delay brexit.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
Labour Manifesto, 2017
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