Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked (3 Viewers)

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I believe this is called a deflection

I believe it's called a fact. Anti-semitism is a big thing at the extreme left and right of the political spectrum.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Mr Deflection is back again.

I’m passionate about discrimination in all contexts - are you?

Not good enough. What are you going to say to Che Guevara to show him the era of his ways? What’s that you say? Dead? Over 50 years ago? Why was he brought up again?

 

[Grendel]

I believe it's called a fact. Anti-semitism is a big thing at the extreme left and right of the political spectrum.

Yet when I mention things like this to Ian - point out other examples he says it’s deflection

How confusing

 

[Ian1779]

Yet when I mention things like this to Ian - point out other examples he says it’s deflection

How confusing

More whataboutery from you. We were discussing AS - you’ve now brought another examples such as Cuba. Shall I just counter that and say what about Saudi Arabia supplying weapons to kill innocents in Yemen - like it’s some kind of atrocity Top Trumps?

 

[Grendel]

More whataboutery from you. We were discussing AS - you’ve now brought another examples such as Cuba. Shall I just counter that and say what about Saudi Arabia supplying weapons to kill innocents in Yemen - like it’s some kind of atrocity Top Trumps?

No my point is the lefts obsession with Israel is purely because it is a Jewish state allied to the US and that the extreme left if the party uses it as a dog whistle to create anti Jew sentiment

You support people like Sultana you live with it. Your constant swerving of this issue and attempts to legitimise is embarrassing really.

Whatever your view and whatever you say about minority labour strands of the Jewish movement the vast majority viewed Corbyn and his rag rag army as inherently racist. As with BLM it’s the Jewish voice that matters and not the white voice

Zarah is a charmer isn’t she?

Controversial new Labour MP Zarah Sultana expresses solidarity with antisemitic terrorist murderers

 

[fernandopartridge]

A good leader is someone who develops a winning formula and team.

He isn't doing that either tbf

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[Nick]

I don’t think that although at the same time I don’t know her reasoning but that wouldn’t be my go to. It’s far more likely that she didn’t spend the two minutes it would have taken on google to find the origins of the story and the original intended use of the story. So basically I put it down to naivety. Again something RLB shouldn’t have been culpable to. So she had to go.

I mean 2 minutes on Google and it would have been seen it isn't an anti semetic conspiracy.

 

[Grendel]

He isn't doing that either tbf

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Well it’s early days

He I think will not exactly adopt a Blair strategy in full but will go an an economic competency message and get confidence from the CBI and the stock market.

Wether you like it or not the what you would call left leaning people in the party - Butler, long Bailey Burgon etc are just not people who’d ever garner public support

He has to stop this forensic bollocks in parliament though or he’s going to start to get mauled when parliament gets back to normal

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well it’s early days

He I think will not exactly adopt a Blair strategy in full but will go an an economic competency message and get confidence from the CBI and the stock market.

Wether you like it or not the what you would call left leaning people in the party - Butler, long Bailey Burgon etc are just not people who’d ever garner public support

He has to stop this forensic bollocks in parliament though or he’s going to start to get mauled when parliament gets back to normal

Doesn't that approach make sense though when the chamber's nearly empty and he's basically 1 v 1 on Johnson?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Wether you like it or not the what you would call left leaning people in the party - Butler, long Bailey Burgon etc are just not people who’d ever garner public support

He has to stop this forensic bollocks in parliament though or he’s going to start to get mauled when parliament gets back to normal

Agree on the first paragraph but it's not to say the policies aren't popular. Though policies seem secondary to soundbite hence the continued slide towards fascism.

Agree on the forensics linked to the above, the dickhead centrists who follow him don't realise that most people take little notice of a win on a technicality or nuanced argument. If Blair was loto he'd be at the Tories' throat at the minute.

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[Grendel]

Doesn't that approach make sense though when the chamber's nearly empty and he's basically 1 v 1 on Johnson?

If you like it or not there has to be a sense of theatre at these things - already Johnson has a strategy and we are just going to end up with a lot of unfunny barrister quips

He does have an IDS style of charisma which is no charisma at all. I’m surprised given his profession how dull his speaking tone is actually

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If you like it or not there has to be a sense of theatre at these things - already Johnson has a strategy and we are just going to end up with a lot of unfunny barrister quips

He does have an IDS style of charisma which is no charisma at all. I’m surprised given his profession how dull his speaking tone is actually

I agree that he comes across as a technocrat, though given that he is basically questioning Johnson 1 on 1 and he's new to the job I don't think it's a big deal yet. The debates so far look like Gore v Bush

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Did the article say that exact policeman was specifically trained?

It hasn’t been confirmed whether Derrick Chauvin had attended such a conference. This is besides the fact that there is a history of codified use of neck restraints long before these seminars/conferences happened. Therefore, the claim that these neck restraints being used by the police is the result of training by Israeli security forces is not an accurate one. Context matters too.

The specific quote from the article claimed: ‘the move that killed George Floyd was learnt from Israeli secret services’. This is misinformation because it hasn’t been confirmed the officer attended any event with Israeli secret services. Given the context of everything that’s happened since this tragedy, you could say it’s an attempt to direct the anger of communities toward Israel.

It’s hard to put myself in that situation, but I could understand why some members of the Jewish community would feel threatened by this language.

To bring it back to the original topic of the thread, it is therefore Kier Starmer’s job to address these concerns. His first step was to give RLB an ‘out’ - the delete and apologise route. When she refused, he had to sack her. To be clear: RLB wasn’t sacked for tweet, she was sacked because she refused orders from her boss.

 

[Ian1779]

No my point is the lefts obsession with Israel is purely because it is a Jewish state allied to the US and that the extreme left if the party uses it as a dog whistle to create anti Jew sentiment

You support people like Sultana you live with it. Your constant swerving of this issue and attempts to legitimise is embarrassing really.

Whatever your view and whatever you say about minority labour strands of the Jewish movement the vast majority viewed Corbyn and his rag rag army as inherently racist. As with BLM it’s the Jewish voice that matters and not the white voice

Zarah is a charmer isn’t she?

Controversial new Labour MP Zarah Sultana expresses solidarity with antisemitic terrorist murderers

Yet what you are doing is assuming that as I identify on the left of the political spectrum that you can somehow ‘define’ my opinions on this matter. And to suggest that I am trying to somehow legitimise it is utter rubbish, even by your standards. It is a hugely complex matter - not one fully understood by me or you.

Do you believe that AS has been weaponised at all? And if you don’t then why are there Jewish people that think it is.

You said after all it’s the Jewish voice that matters on this - I assume you mean all of them.

 

[Grendel]

Yet what you are doing is assuming that as I identify on the left of the political spectrum that you can somehow ‘define’ my opinions on this matter. And to suggest that I am trying to somehow legitimise it is utter rubbish, even by your standards. It is a hugely complex matter - not one fully understood by me or you.

Do you believe that AS has been weaponised at all? And if you don’t then why are there Jewish people that think it is.

You said after all it’s the Jewish voice that matters on this - I assume you mean all of them.

I mean the majority in the uk and their views on the Labour Party Ian

'Anyone but Corbyn': Jewish voters turn away from Labour

 

[Ian1779]

I mean the majority in the uk and their views on the Labour Party Ian

'Anyone but Corbyn': Jewish voters turn away from Labour

So you’re not answering then.

 

[Grendel]

So you’re not answering then.

Well with respect Ian I asked you a question on sultana and you have ignored it and I have given you a view on the labour parties interest in this area of the world and why the party hates Israel - you have not answered that or indeed why there is not a single post on here from you criticising Cuba, the vile Chavez regime, racism in India or Pakistan or vile human rights atrocities in China and Mongolia. Instead it seems you have an interest in one country only - which oddly is controlled by Jews

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Well it’s early days

He I think will not exactly adopt a Blair strategy in full but will go an an economic competency message and get confidence from the CBI and the stock market.

Wether you like it or not the what you would call left leaning people in the party - Butler, long Bailey Burgon etc are just not people who’d ever garner public support

He has to stop this forensic bollocks in parliament though or he’s going to start to get mauled when parliament gets back to normal

Yeah - let's stop having someone going through things properly. Let's just have a good old fashioned shouting match with soundbites instead.

How about we stop parliament being allowed to act like children shouting out rather than stopping people doing stuff competently?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Agree on the first paragraph but it's not to say the policies aren't popular. Though policies seem secondary to soundbite hence the continued slide towards fascism.

Agree on the forensics linked to the above, the dickhead centrists who follow him don't realise that most people take little notice of a win on a technicality or nuanced argument. If Blair was loto he'd be at the Tories' throat at the minute.

And most people don't remember a thing about what's been said in parliament when standing at the voting booth. So use parliament for holding government to account and adopt a more simple, soundbite based approach for elections.

As far as I'm concerned long may the forensic analysis continue. It's about time someone starting taking it seriously rather than like a classroom squabble.

 

[Nick]

The specific quote from the article claimed: ‘the move that killed George Floyd was learnt from Israeli secret services’. This is misinformation because it hasn’t been confirmed the officer attended any event with Israeli secret services. Given the context of everything that’s happened since this tragedy, you could say it’s an attempt to direct the anger of communities toward Israel.

I mean, that's not the actual quote from the article.

As I keep saying, when it comes to politics then logic and being able to read goes out of the window.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The bloke and these other assorted centrist wankers aren't getting my vote.

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[clint van damme]

I mean, that's not the actual quote from the article.

As I keep saying, when it comes to politics then logic and being able to read goes out of the window.

the Independent backing RLB's sacking and talking about the article as if it came from some crackpot conspiracy site rather than their own paper!

 

[clint van damme]

The bloke and these other assorted centrist wankers aren't getting my vote.

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been struggling to try and be objective and look at the bigger picture but it's getting more difficult by the day to be honest.
Not that my vote really matters.

 

[Grendel]

The bloke and these other assorted centrist wankers aren't getting my vote.

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I am liking it more and more

 

[Nick]

the Independent backing RLB's sacking and talking about the article as if it came from some crackpot conspiracy site rather than their own paper!

Really? It's madness.

Facts have gone out of the window.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I mean, that's not the actual quote from the article.

As I keep saying, when it comes to politics then logic and being able to read goes out of the window.

It is a direct quote and the original article I shared with you had the excerpt where Maxine Peake made the claim that the move was learnt from Israeli special services.

Here is the unedited, original quote, from the original Independent article which RLB shared. I’ve attached a screenshot.

Link: Maxine Peake: ‘People who couldn’t vote Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn? They voted Tory as far as I’m concerned’

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I am liking it more and more

In your view, why would the teaching unions want to prevent their members from going back into school?

 

[clint van damme]

It hasn’t been confirmed whether Derrick Chauvin had attended such a conference. This is besides the fact that there is a history of codified use of neck restraints long before these seminars/conferences happened. Therefore, the claim that these neck restraints being used by the police is the result of training by Israeli security forces is not an accurate one. Context matters too.

The specific quote from the article claimed: ‘the move that killed George Floyd was learnt from Israeli secret services’. This is misinformation because it hasn’t been confirmed the officer attended any event with Israeli secret services. Given the context of everything that’s happened since this tragedy, you could say it’s an attempt to direct the anger of communities toward Israel.

It’s hard to put myself in that situation, but I could understand why some members of the Jewish community would feel threatened by this language.

To bring it back to the original topic of the thread, it is therefore Kier Starmer’s job to address these concerns. His first step was to give RLB an ‘out’ - the delete and apologise route. When she refused, he had to sack her. To be clear: RLB wasn’t sacked for tweet, she was sacked because she refused orders from her boss.

why would Derek Chauvin needed to have attended a conference to have learned this technique in Israel?
US police delegates attend seminars in Israel, they then pass on what they've learnt, it doesn't mean every officer has had to travel to Israel for training surely?

 

[Nick]

It is a direct quote and the original article I shared with you had the excerpt where Maxine Peake made the claim that the move was learnt from Israeli special services.

Here is the unedited, original quote, from the original Independent article which RLB shared. I’ve attached a screenshot.

Link: Maxine Peake: ‘People who couldn’t vote Labour because of Jeremy Corbyn? They voted Tory as far as I’m concerned’

Yeah, I quoted it at the start of the thread. Not the version I just questioned which was twisted.

It reads like the heavy handed tactics by the police in America have been learnt from israelis. Not that exact copper was trained to kill black people.

 

[chiefdave]

Here is the unedited, original quote, from the original Independent article which RLB shared. I’ve attached a screenshot.

Possibly worth mentioning that the article was edited by the Independent following Long-Bailey's sacking. The original version was:

"The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services".
Though a spokesperson from the Israeli police has denied this, a 2016 Amnesty International report said that hundreds of law enforcement officials had traveled to Israel for training.

 

[clint van damme]

Yeah, I quoted it at the start of the thread. Not the version I just questioned which was twisted.

It reads like the heavy handed tactics by the police in America have been learnt from israelis. Not that exact copper was trained to kill black people.

to be fair the Israelis could tell them to set fire to people with flame throwers, the US authorities don't have to do it, ultimately the US authorities are responsible for the behaviour of their officers nobody else.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

why would Derek Chauvin needed to have attended a conference to have learned this technique in Israel?
US police delegates attend seminars in Israel, they then pass on what they've learnt, it doesn't mean every officer has had to travel to Israel for training surely?

Ok, assuming that it is the case. US police aren’t learning this from Israeli secret services - they’re being trained by their own police departments.

That still doesn’t account for similar instances of police brutality in US that predates these kind of seminars/conferences delivered to US police.

Derrick Chauvin is to blame what happened. Whether or not he received training from Israeli secret services. No trained personnel would recommend using this technique in the neck of someone for 8+ minutes.

To bring Israel in this discussion is a red herring, from just about every angle of looking at it.

 

[Nick]

to be fair the Israelis could tell them to set fire to people with flame throwers, the US authorities don't have to do it, ultimately the US authorities are responsible for the behaviour of their officers nobody else.

Of course, that's why it's weird how people get upset about US police going to Israel to be taught some of their moves which can cause damage.

Both the US and Israel have the choice, it ends up with some police who are properly trained and wannabe dickheads who see it on youtube.

 

[Nick]

Ok, assuming that it is the case. US police aren’t learning this from Israeli secret services - they’re being trained by their own police departments.

I mean, they are literally going to Israel and having Israelis go to them.

Of course the copper is to blame whether he is trained or not.

 

[clint van damme]

Possibly worth mentioning that the article was edited by the Independent following Long-Bailey's sacking. The original version was:

that quote is a bit ambiguous to be honest, I think the Israelis are denying the kneeling on the neck technique was taught at these seminars not that police from the US go there for training.
For what it's worth I don't believe the Israelis denial about the neck technique.