Push Council for STADIUM OWNERSHIP not reduced rent!! (1 Viewer)

Diehard Si

New Member
The whole stop the Council Ricoh rent thing seems like a total mis-direction of energy to me. Coventry fans are hurting and are mad, and I appreciate the need to come together and do something. But just because someone has suggested this and shouting ‘ALL OF US HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER’ doesn’t necessarily mean its the right way to go.

Yes the club pays too much in rent, but consider this that the Arena has to make money. If they go bust then no stadium also. The issue for me though is more a case of getting ownership of the stadium INTO THE CLUB.

We all want SISU out, but must remember that it is highly likely that administration will follow, and if no buyer then found liquidation will occur. It is also likely liquidation might just happen anyway. Now from a potential investors (Knight in shining armour ) point of view it is a scary prospect. SISU say they lose £500k a month ( which I must say sounds vastly exaggerated, unless they are charging huge amounts of loan interest a month to themselves ). We will be losing most of our TV money, we will be losing lots of ticket sales.

So if SISU say we are losing £6m a year now, less say another £3m a year revenue next season (TV and tickets ) that is a potential loss of £9m a year next year. Of course, I think the SISU figures are rubbish, but you can certainly picture a £5m loss next year. The rent of course is an issue, but it’s not as if this is everything. £1.2m clearly isn’t the whole picture.

But what investor is going to spend Millions to buy a club losing millions a year?? Investors look for a return on their capital, Coventry in their current position have Zero chance of this. We can’t trim the squad down anymore either. The club losing money left right and centre and no assets either. A business needs not only a cashflow but also long term a strong asset base. A stadium perhaps.

Stadium Ownership

It is all for nothing if we can’t own the stadium. Whoever made the mistake of letting external parties own the stadium instead of ourselves has utterly ruined this club. The only way back is for the stadium to be owned by the club, sit on its balance sheet and generate money from all its facilities day by day. Not just from a pure financial point of view, but also these new ‘fair trade rules’ instead of an expense of £1.2million, you will have additional revenue for the club, allowing therefore more to be spent on players wages to comply with the FA’s new rules.

The club will increase it’s liabilities to acquire the stadium, but will have the asset to sit on its accounts to offset this. You could even push for the club to convert the loan to ‘equity’, therefore giving ACL a share of club ownership and giving the club a better gearing ratio.

Ok there will be depreciation to consider, but this is a non operating cost. It could realistically get losses to £2m and under, which could be offset by player trading. Get the scouts out, pick up some quality youth players coming through. The likes of Dann, Fox, Gunnar, Juke etc. Get them cheap, sell them on for £2m or something. Do that a few times and you are offsetting the losses.

This does need some investment obviously, but is a clear way to trade through it. This to me is much more important than a campaign to reduce rent. Instead push for the Council to put ownership of the stadium back into the club, once SISU are out of the picture preferably!

Idea scenario

  • SISU push for liquidation, gets blocked and goes into admin.
  • A pence in the pound agreement is made to settle some of the debt to SISU.
  • GH/ACL/other steps in with bid to administrators to buy the club.
  • GH/ACL/other open talks with Council that part of this venture involves 100% of the stadium being transferred to the club TO SAVE THE CLUB.
  • Council/ACL gain a stake in the club in return, therefore not relinquishing their investment altogether.
It really needs GH/other investor to come along, open dialogue with the Council and hope the Council don’t sit back and watch the club go out of business.
 

coundonskyblue

New Member
I agree that the Ricoh should belong to the club, however in my opinion that should only be with the club paying a fair price for it.

I don't see why the taxpayers of Coventry should give away a £113m venue to a faceless investor.

There needs to be fairness on all sides. The Council should be willing to sell, but only at a fair price.
 

Sub

Well-Known Member
i do not think anybody disputes the club needs to own atleast half the stadium and atleast get some of the revenue from it, but the problem is we do not want SISU to have it because that is all they want and the club or the team will not benifit from it it will be milked and run just as badly as the club has been!!
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
What about we all bombard the council with letters and emails etc. saying we want support for our club, be that a rent reduction or clarity on the point that they would sell to the right party or not.

It's our council and they are the council for the people of Coventry. Could we not get a local MP onboard to help fight our cause?
 

Steve.B50

Well-Known Member
Very good points Si
Its not gpoing to happen with GH from what I am hearing. SISU will not go into Admin they have to much money, but they want rid of us.
As for Stadium, I agree 100% but at same time what else could the Council use the Stadium for? I know the rest of the Stadium makes money but not the pitch itself.
Also, we as Coventry Rate payers all own the Stadium, its ours already or have I got that wrong ? Your right someone needs to open up a dialogue with the Council.

Steve
 

Diehard Si

New Member
I agree that the Ricoh should belong to the club, however in my opinion that should only be with the club paying a fair price for it.

I don't see why the taxpayers of Coventry should give away a £113m venue to a faceless investor.

There needs to be fairness on all sides. The Council should be willing to sell, but only at a fair price.
And a fair price could be reached by an equity stake in the club, not necessarily a cash payment.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Otis
Good idea but all we would do then is save SISU money.

Steve

Yes, but I think the council have already made it pretty clear that they don't want to deal with Sisu anyway.

Might force the council's hand to come out and put a bit more meat on the bones to make it clear that they simply will not deal with the current owners, but would if it were a party they could trust.
 

Diehard Si

New Member
Very good points Si
Its not gpoing to happen with GH from what I am hearing. SISU will not go into Admin they have to much money, but they want rid of us.
As for Stadium, I agree 100% but at same time what else could the Council use the Stadium for? I know the rest of the Stadium makes money but not the pitch itself.
Also, we as Coventry Rate payers all own the Stadium, its ours already or have I got that wrong ? Your right someone needs to open up a dialogue with the Council.

Steve
I know the stadium makes money from other areas but the Council have said if they cut rent ref ACL makes a loss too.

Therefore the fate of club and stadium are one and the same.
 

Steve.B50

Well-Known Member
Otis
Your right, but it seems that so many people from Coventry all want to just leave it to other people, I will try anything but as I have already said on another post I am just one person. Must do something, but what ever it is it must be as a group with same aims and organised.
 

Diehard Si

New Member
Might force the council's hand to come out and put a bit more meat on the bones to make it clear that they simply will not deal with the current owners, but would if it were a party they could trust.
Yes!!

Precisely.

Future investors need to get the stadium. Not SISU
 

skybluesam66

Well-Known Member
Arguably the club have already paid a fair price

after collecting monies from Tesco casino etc- the stadium total cost was around £50m

of this CCFC paid around £20m to clear the land etc - but then had to abandon the project due to finances

as far as i understand Higgs then put in around 10m (which is the 10m they want back) and the council around 20m - remember Jimmy hill coming on to the pitch at HR telling us it was our only option

I therefore think the council need to stop bleeding the club dry and come to a fair outcome (not involving sisu of course - their true colours have been shown)
 

Diehard Si

New Member
Otis
Your right, but it seems that so many people from Coventry all want to just leave it to other people, I will try anything but as I have already said on another post I am just one person. Must do something, but what ever it is it must be as a group with same aims and organised.
Mandela was just 1 person. So was Gandhi, Luther King....
 

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
:whistle:
the-ricoh-arena-268590327.jpg
 

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
Great Post. Only problem is SISU, they have not got a pot to piss in according to various sources. If the miss trust built up by our owners with the council could be over come then they could not afford to buy it any way. Ownership of the income streams from the stadium is a must, the council and the Higgs trust will sell their stakes and have gone on record with that, the only stumbling block is that they will only sell to some one who sees the club as an integral part of the stadium and its future. According to rumours that were circulating GH had agreements outlined with both parties to do this but SISU will not let go, part of their original strategy was to purchase the Ricoh and make a profit, thats why the council has been so protective of their asset. You cant blame the council for taking this approach with SISU as they were and are only in it to make as much ROI as is possible. I agree with what you say on the accounts as well, I believe interest and management charges make up for the bulk of the losses that the club is reporting, another case of SISU blowing smoke up evryones arse. As has been said in other posts the next ten days are going to be crucial for the survival of the club with all the financial shenanigans being performed by SISU. Their is a general consensus though that the threat of liquidation is being used as leverage with ACL over the rent, no club then no income. The thought is that SISU are having a bit of their own treatment back and dont like it. ACL and the council are standing up to them and thats for the good of the club and the tax payers of the city. The arena should benefit the city first and the club second, it was not built to line the pockets of a group of faceless entrapenuers who wanted to make a quick buck. PUSB
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
so what you are saying is that ACL transfer the Ricoh to CCFC in return for shares in CCFC. That only works if CCFC has a balance sheet value of £0 or above and ACL owns 100% of CCFC. Otherwise if they only have say 50% of the shares they are gifting in effect 50% of the stadium to CCFC. The only way ACL would get a return (last accounts showed a £500K profit) is by taking a dividend which currently CCFC could not pay legally - yet ACL would still be left with a large mortgage to service. How does ACL, Council, Charity get full value?

Not only that if they take shares in the current CCFC then in effect they buy in to the losses and liabilities that exist..... with the ultimate end game of if it goes bust they lose the stadium.

Why though would the council risk public money or the charity risk breaching Charity Commission rules to take on massive debts and recurring losses that could be out of their control ?

They would be better off giving CCFC a rent free period because ACL is likely to make less losses in doing that than owning a part share in CCFC

See what you are getting at in your points. The club does need more income. Just cannot see why the Council the charity or ACL would want to own shares in ccfc in the present structure

Council Charity ACL etc do not want to see CCFC go bust/admin but that might suit them long term if a new debt free CCFC can be born from it. Then you might see a partnership of some kind between ACL and CCFC - but will need SISU out before that will happen
 

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
OSB, does the council have any thing to do with ACL financialy? Its so complicated the way in which everything is geared up, I am thinking if they are then they would not be able to get directly involved in the club any way as they would be using public money a bit like West Ham and their local council when they were looking at moving to the Olympic stadium. Or did the council ste ACL up as a company to pay back the councils investment?
 

Diehard Si

New Member
so what you are saying is that ACL transfer the Ricoh to CCFC in return for shares in CCFC. That only works if CCFC has a balance sheet value of £0 or above and ACL owns 100% of CCFC. Otherwise if they only have say 50% of the shares they are gifting in effect 50% of the stadium to CCFC. The only way ACL would get a return (last accounts showed a £500K profit) is by taking a dividend which currently CCFC could not pay legally - yet ACL would still be left with a large mortgage to service. How does ACL, Council, Charity get full value?

Not only that if they take shares in the current CCFC then in effect they buy in to the losses and liabilities that exist..... with the ultimate end game of if it goes bust they lose the stadium.

Why though would the council risk public money or the charity risk breaching Charity Commission rules to take on massive debts and recurring losses that could be out of their control ?

They would be better off giving CCFC a rent free period because ACL is likely to make less losses in doing that than owning a part share in CCFC

See what you are getting at in your points. The club does need more income. Just cannot see why the Council the charity or ACL would want to own shares in ccfc in the present structure

Council Charity ACL etc do not want to see CCFC go bust/admin but that might suit them long term if a new debt free CCFC can be born from it. Then you might see a partnership of some kind between ACL and CCFC - but will need SISU out before that will happen
I hate to say it, but I think the club needs to go through admin first and SISU need to accept the p in the £ offer. This would hopefully then write off most of SISU's debt for the balance not agreed. ( company admin procedures isn't my area I admit).

It's not ideal for either party, but the alternative is the club goes bust and the stadium might follow.

Like it or not ACL are a massive stakeholder in the club already and it's going to hurt them as well.

A dividend can't be paid until the company has a positive reserves position correct. But a management charge perhaps? Some kind of loan repayment... Although obviously not on the equity, maybe some element left in creditors.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Other than being shareholders no Vick but both Council and Charity have a seat on the Board of ACL. I think that there would be big regulatory obstacles to both the Council and Charity to be directly involved in running CCFC even if that is through ACL. The purpose of ACL is to own the long lease, rent/manage the site, further develop the site and to repay the mortgage. It doesnt provide the staff, the bar stocks etc at the Ricoh that is a joint venture with Compass that ACL get a share of profits from. It has a small staff of 20 or so and is a landlord not a trader
 

kingharvest

New Member
This is speculation, but is it possible the council and Hoffman are working together to force SISU out?

Maybe they are purposely not reducing the rent so as to force their hand, and their threat of liquidation is empty because Hoffman, being savvy, knows they won't/can't do it.

Keys puts it out there to whip the fans into further anti SISU protests, with the new owners willing to take the administration hit in order to purchase the club on their terms?

It sounds plausible...any glaring holes in it?
 

Diehard Si

New Member
This is speculation, but is it possible the council and Hoffman are working together to force SISU out?

Maybe they are purposely not reducing the rent so as to force their hand, and their threat of liquidation is empty because Hoffman, being savvy, knows they won't/can't do it.

Keys puts it out there to whip the fans into further anti SISU protests, with the new owners willing to take the administration hit in order to purchase the club on their terms?

It sounds plausible...any glaring holes in it?
It's crossed my mind a few times. Although not sure if it's more hope than expectation.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I hate to say it, but I think the club needs to go through admin first and SISU need to accept the p in the £ offer. This would hopefully then write off most of SISU's debt for the balance not agreed. ( company admin procedures isn't my area I admit).

It's not ideal for either party, but the alternative is the club goes bust and the stadium might follow.

Like it or not ACL are a massive stakeholder in the club already and it's going to hurt them as well.

A dividend can't be paid until the company has a positive reserves position correct. But a management charge perhaps? Some kind of loan repayment... Although obviously not on the equity, maybe some element left in creditors.

Doesnt look good does it. Yes it will hurt ACL if CCFC go bust thats for sure but it doesnt mean ACL would follow CCFC

Presently ACL have a reasonable expectation of £500K profit to redevelop the site after paying interest on loans of £1m. Any investor in CCFC is going to have to come up with some cash, and guarantee that the club is never going to be in its present state ever again. I think the stadium asset needs to be ring fenced from the CCFC trading that might include income from the stadium. The Ricoh can never be allowed to be siphoned off by some investor...... it is more than CCFC
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
ACL have a 40 year rental agreement with CCFC signed sealed and delivered. It cannot just be varied on a say so of Mutton etc. It takes time and requires proof of why it should be varied. Similarly a sale would take time and require not just proof of funds to buy but also proof of business plan over coming years and funds to back that. Either way CCFC seem to have not provided such evidence nor has SISU.

The Council could be working with GH but it couldnt be seen to be. BUT it is ACL that has set the rent and owns the long lease. ACL cannot be seen to fail. ACL also has to address the other agreements it has at the site (Compass, DeVere Casino etc) and cannot be seen to be rolling over for CCFC for all sorts of commercial reasons.

None of this is very straight forward at all
 

PWKH

New Member
Other than being shareholders no Vick but both Council and Charity have a seat on the Board of ACL. I think that there would be big regulatory obstacles to both the Council and Charity to be directly involved in running CCFC even if that is through ACL. The purpose of ACL is to own the long lease, rent/manage the site, further develop the site and to repay the mortgage. It doesnt provide the staff, the bar stocks etc at the Ricoh that is a joint venture with Compass that ACL get a share of profits from. It has a small staff of 20 or so and is a landlord not a trader

I think that the only thing that needs adding to this, OSB, is the explanation for the avoidance of doubt, that ACL is not the Council or the Charity. It is owned by them, yes. The Directors appointed by the Charity and the Council have to act in the best interest of the Company, equally in the interest of both shareholders. Neither the Council nor the Charity get any payments of any kind from the Company and won't until the mortgage is paid off. This at the current rate is likely to be in 15 years time.
Although one should never say never, it is unlikely that ACL would buy into CCFC, the losses that the Club make would kill ACL. The debt that ACL already carries could not be added to. The only way ACL can grow is to invest in the Arena and the area around it to build the business. In the current economic climate it is hard to find that investment. It would make no sense to bale out the Club but to lose the whole thing, stadium, exhibition halls, casino, hotel and Club in the process.
 

Diehard Si

New Member
It's just do deflating. Whatever way you turn there is a huge brick wall.

Someone's wall is going to have to come down, or be knocked down
 

Wrenstreetcarpark

New Member
Yes and at the moment the wall is Joy Seppala and Sisu who have mismanaged the Club to the point where we are relegated and they are not paying rent etc.
Sisu out.
 

Diehard Si

New Member
I think that the only thing that needs adding to this, OSB, is the explanation for the avoidance of doubt, that ACL is not the Council or the Charity. It is owned by them, yes. The Directors appointed by the Charity and the Council have to act in the best interest of the Company, equally in the interest of both shareholders. Neither the Council nor the Charity get any payments of any kind from the Company and won't until the mortgage is paid off. This at the current rate is likely to be in 15 years time.
Although one should never say never, it is unlikely that ACL would buy into CCFC, the losses that the Club make would kill ACL. The debt that ACL already carries could not be added to. The only way ACL can grow is to invest in the Arena and the area around it to build the business. In the current economic climate it is hard to find that investment. It would make no sense to bale out the Club but to lose the whole thing, stadium, exhibition halls, casino, hotel and Club in the process.

Do you think that ACL can survive a liquidation of CCFC?

I realise a new club would probably crop up 9 steps down the league ladder, and could potentially play there and generate a tiny rent, but still it would cripple it massively.
 

coundonskyblue

New Member
Going off the point slightly, has anyone seen what is happening at Doncaster? The Keepmoat stadium is run with a similar set up to the Ricoh, it has a company to run it (equvilant of ACL), which I think is 100% owned by Donny council.

The stadium company though is struggling badly and the council has offered the club the chance to buy it for just £5m. However if they cannot raise the money it is likely to be sold to private landlords.
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
Going off the point slightly, has anyone seen what is happening at Doncaster? The Keepmoat stadium is run with a similar set up to the Ricoh, it has a company to run it (equvilant of ACL), which I think is 100% owned by Donny council.

The stadium company though is struggling badly and the council has offered the club the chance to buy it for just £5m. However if they cannot raise the money it is likely to be sold to private landlords.


Any chance we can buy it and move it to the outskirts of Cov?
 

mattylad

Member
Going off the point slightly, has anyone seen what is happening at Doncaster? The Keepmoat stadium is run with a similar set up to the Ricoh, it has a company to run it (equvilant of ACL), which I think is 100% owned by Donny council.

The stadium company though is struggling badly and the council has offered the club the chance to buy it for just £5m. However if they cannot raise the money it is likely to be sold to private landlords.

The difference is that the stadium in Doncaster is losing money where as the Ricoh is making money.

Far more likely if CCFC are liquidated is that another team will be franchised in like Wimbledon were to the MK Dons.

Whether the city faithful would except that and go up to support is hard to say, if succesful then its very possible they would.
 

Diehard Si

New Member
If it came to it and Ccfc was liquidated then the fans would definitely get behind the new team.

I sometimes think its the only way forward. Clean slate, start again with no debts. Play our way up the ladder. Learn to win and be tough.

Every other possible way out just seems a dead end.
 

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