Prosecutions against Fisher and Joy (1 Viewer)

[CJparker]

Occurred to me last night that one tactic ACL could use is to prosecute Tim Fisher and Joy Seppala personally over the unpaid rent.

Clearly SISU are trying to call the council's bluff by refusing to pay rent, forcing the council to either do a deal or get the blame for forcing the club into liquidation via a winding up order.

If I was the council, I would sidestep this by bringing an action, either civil or criminal, against the club directors. That would up the ante and see how much resolve Tim and Joy really have, when it's their own necks on the line rather than CCFC.

Personally I'd quite like to see the pair of them being bars, but that's just my view.

 

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[Danceswithhorses]

I pretty sure that Joy isn't a director

 

[skyblueman]

The debt is with the club so ACL have to go after the legal entity which is CCFC - can't just go for the directors - IF the club is unable to pay the bills and the directors are found guilty of over-trading (i.e taking more goods & services they know they can't pay for) then yes they could end up in trouble personally

ACL will have to force this through the courts and issue a widing up order on the club for the unpaid debt if if still not forthcoming

 

[cyril]

Hahahah. Fisher is an employee.
Might as well ask robins too

 

[CJparker]

Just trying to think of a way of putting the pressure back on SISU rather than the council, ACL or CCFC - anyone else got any ideas??

 

[skyblueman]

Just trying to think of a way of putting the pressure back on SISU rather than the council, ACL or CCFC - anyone else got any ideas??

Got to be the club CJ - that's all ACL can go after for the rent

 

[cyril]

Just trying to think of a way of putting the pressure back on SISU rather than the council, ACL or CCFC - anyone else got any ideas??

Really? Why? If they pull the plug we are fkd

 

[dongonzalos]

I have an alternative prosecution.

Joy I accuse you of taking over a football club 'saving them from a 15 point deduction that may have relegated them to league one'

You are also accused of.

Having no idea how to run a football club to achieve success and not employing the correct specialist with that knowledge.

Having no realistic financial plan for most important part of this business, buying the stadium. It seems the only plan was promotion and the stadium will come.

You should have only bought CCFC if you could afford at least half the stadium and promotion.

Acquiring a budget that ensured we would always have to sell our best players.

Lastly ensuring when we were facing relegation at Xmas that we sold our top scorer consigning us to the fate you supposedly saved us from.

Never explaining your rationale to fans for the above decisions. Making the fans feel alienated from the club.

Lastly putting your faith in TF.

TF you are guilty for your part in the Jan sale of our only hope at survival.

Looking and sounding like a politician.

Continuously saying one thing and doing another.

Deciding your were going to back AT, back him, then sack him after a shit 45 minutes of football.

Both guilty,

Sentenced to live the rest of their sorry lives in Leicester.

 

[cyril]

I think the blame is for ray ranson.

 

[wingy]

The Truth .They just did'nt have deep enough pockets from the start of the Project.

 

[cyril]

For which I blame ranson for appointing Coleman

 

[oldskyblue58]

no ideas but is anyone else starting to get the feeling that the club is actually hitting the buffers and the whole thing is all but ready to fall? Or is it just a sense tiredness about all the financial mess, where nothing said by TF JS etc is really believed, and i am just bored of it now? There is no sense of panic or urgency it is more like resignation.

Cant prosecute or sue Seppala cj she isnt a director, although you might be able to prove she is a shadow director in which case there may be some sort of a case. But you would have to prove that any director (or shadow director)acted fraudulently or negligently to make a case. We might choose to think it but I couldnt say they have ......... they have managed the club in a way that i certainly do not agree with but that isnt going to be anything like good enough in court when trying to prove negligence or fraud

ACL's remedies are against their tenant for performance of the terms of that lease ....... the tenant is CCFC not TF or JS.

Part of ACL's dileamour is that some of its directors will be under intense pressure from local politicians whose agenda has no real basis in commercial reality - so that decisions may not be entirely based on commercial expediency. Politics and egos getting in the way. Any other tenant would have been locked out months ago ..... and SISU/CCFC have relied on that up until now.

The only way i think ACL can put more pressure CCFC is by becoming less reliant on the money CCFC generates and being able to absorb the debt outstanding. New income sources, rejig finance, look for alternative tenants that sort of thing.

None of this would appear to be good news for ccfc.

 

[skyblueman]

no ideas but is anyone else starting to get the feeling that the club is actually hitting the buffers and the whole thing is all but ready to fall? Or is it just a sense tiredness about all the financial mess, where nothing said by TF JS etc is really believed, and i am just bored of it now? There is no sense of panic or urgency it is more like resignation.

Cant prosecute or sue Seppala cj she isnt a director, although you might be able to prove she is a shadow director in which case there may be some sort of a case. But you would have to prove that any director (or shadow director)acted fraudulently or negligently to make a case. We might choose to think it but I couldnt say they have ......... they have managed the club in a way that i certainly do not agree with but that isnt going to be anything like good enough in court when trying to prove negligence or fraud

ACL's remedies are against their tenant for performance of the terms of that lease ....... the tenant is CCFC not TF or JS.

Part of ACL's dileamour is that some of its directors will be under intense pressure from local politicians whose agenda has no real basis in commercial reality - so that decisions may not be entirely based on commercial expediency. Politics and egos getting in the way. Any other tenant would have been locked out months ago ..... and SISU/CCFC have relied on that up until now.

The only way i think ACL can put more pressure CCFC is by becoming less reliant on the money CCFC generates and being able to absorb the debt outstanding. New income sources, rejig finance, look for alternative tenants that sort of thing.

None of this would appear to be good news for ccfc.

OSB I concur.. I am of the opinion this is all about to cave in.. really can't see how this can just go on and on

 

[wingy]

I think the blame is for ray ranson.

He could have run with Dowie till the end of that season you would have thought ,but he was'nt a puppet manager like Coleman seemed.

 

[CJparker]

Hahahah. Fisher is an employee.
Might as well ask robins too

No, Fisher is a director. He could potentially be liable for any contempt of court action.

 

[CJparker]

no ideas but is anyone else starting to get the feeling that the club is actually hitting the buffers and the whole thing is all but ready to fall? Or is it just a sense tiredness about all the financial mess, where nothing said by TF JS etc is really believed, and i am just bored of it now? There is no sense of panic or urgency it is more like resignation.

Cant prosecute or sue Seppala cj she isnt a director, although you might be able to prove she is a shadow director in which case there may be some sort of a case. But you would have to prove that any director (or shadow director)acted fraudulently or negligently to make a case. We might choose to think it but I couldnt say they have ......... they have managed the club in a way that i certainly do not agree with but that isnt going to be anything like good enough in court when trying to prove negligence or fraud

ACL's remedies are against their tenant for performance of the terms of that lease ....... the tenant is CCFC not TF or JS.

Part of ACL's dileamour is that some of its directors will be under intense pressure from local politicians whose agenda has no real basis in commercial reality - so that decisions may not be entirely based on commercial expediency. Politics and egos getting in the way. Any other tenant would have been locked out months ago ..... and SISU/CCFC have relied on that up until now.

The only way i think ACL can put more pressure CCFC is by becoming less reliant on the money CCFC generates and being able to absorb the debt outstanding. New income sources, rejig finance, look for alternative tenants that sort of thing.

None of this would appear to be good news for ccfc.

Justo pick up on a couple of points here...I think that directors are held liable for the actions of their companies, so in the case of CCFC Fisher certainly could be held personally to account. You also mention that Joy could be classed as a "shadow director" - this is true because she is in control of SISU, who can be shown in court to be directly controlling CCFC.

I don't think you have to prove fraud or negligence either - this seems to me to be a clear case of contempt of court.


But in general I share your appraisal. I can't realistically see ACL personally suing the directors, and if they did it would do the club no good at all. As you say, ACL is dependant on the rental income, and is screwed without it. So they lose anyway if they push CCFC into liquidation, as there is no replacement tenant. I can't see a situation where the Ricoh is viable without CCFC as a tenant.

Hate to say it, but it looks like SISU are holding all the cards. If ACL doesn't put the heat onto the directors directly, I don't know what they can do.

 

[cyril]

No, Fisher is a director. He could potentially be liable for any contempt of court action.

Yes fisher is chief exec. He reports to board of directors

 

[CJparker]

Yes fisher is chief exec. He reports to board of directors

He is listed as a company director. As you would expect for someone who is a CEO.

 

[cyril]

Where is he listed on the board?

 

[dongonzalos]

I think the blame is for ray ranson.

Co accused but on the run, he was a facilitator, who claimes that if they did not deviate from his plan they would have been home dry......

 

[cyril]

Nice one dongo.

 

[CJparker]

Where is he listed on the board?

Companies House, which I checked via CreditSafe.

How's the takeover coming along?

 

[cyril]

It's not. Director of ccfc or sky blue sports and leisure ?

 

[CJparker]

He is a director of both, as well as Coventry City Holdings - just checked this very moment!!!!

No wonder it didn't go very far if you can confidently make claims that are factually incorrect about the very club you're involved in trying to buy!!

 

[cyril]

Why are you getting edgy ? I only asked where it was listed

 

[cyril]

And I stand by the FACT that fisher is an employee

 

[CJparker]

He may be an employee but he is also a director.

I'm annoyed because of your "haha" in your first post in this thread. If you're going to laugh in my face can you please get your facts right first.

 

[cyril]

Well ok. Sorry. Just thought you were clutching at straws a bit

 

[CJparker]

OK I just don't know what type of actions can be counted as "contempt of court" - I'd understood that company directors can be held liable and personally prosecuted, but I may be mistaken

 

[cyril]

Ok. Where has " contempt of court" come from?
Has it been quoted?

 

[cyril]

I dont think directors can be held liable unless they have signed a personal guarantee

 

[cloughie]

The court ordered that the escrow account be topped up within a certain amount of days if this is not done then that would possibly be contempt of court

but I.m sure this bunch of sh*t will know the exact limit they can push law to.

 

[cyril]

Mmm. If they are physically unable too I don't think it would be contempt

 

[oldskyblue58]

Justo pick up on a couple of points here...I think that directors are held liable for the actions of their companies, so in the case of CCFC Fisher certainly could be held personally to account. You also mention that Joy could be classed as a "shadow director" - this is true because she is in control of SISU, who can be shown in court to be directly controlling CCFC.

I don't think you have to prove fraud or negligence either - this seems to me to be a clear case of contempt of court.


But in general I share your appraisal. I can't realistically see ACL personally suing the directors, and if they did it would do the club no good at all. As you say, ACL is dependant on the rental income, and is screwed without it. So they lose anyway if they push CCFC into liquidation, as there is no replacement tenant. I can't see a situation where the Ricoh is viable without CCFC as a tenant.

Hate to say it, but it looks like SISU are holding all the cards. If ACL doesn't put the heat onto the directors directly, I don't know what they can do.

Not sure we are saying all the same things because i am not sure that right now SISU do hold all the cards.

TF is a director and as such an employee of the company. JS is a shadow director not because she owns SISU but because CCFC and its board of directors is accustomed to acting under her personal instructions. Think we are also forgetting that TF, for example, is an expert in corporate reconstructions and will have access to top level legal advice so will JS.

Are they in contempt of court - well we dont know what the exact details of the judgement were, nor do we know what applications have been made to court since then. IF they have told the court CCFC do not have the money and can prove it (not hard) then hard to prove the company is in contempt or its directors. Contempt of court might inconvenience TF or JS but it wont put much pressure on them - they have after all been in that supposed position for months. Would an action for contempt of court change much no not really, certainly wouldnt force CCFC to pay the rent, TF could resign as director become a consultant and CCFC would still owe £1m and rising.

Proving fraud and negligence would be far more serious and affect their other directorships. But like i said it would not be easy to prove from what we know (if at all) and just because we disagree with how they have managed the club it doesn't actually provide any evidence of fraud or negligence.

That said i think we are both right there will be no apetite to sue individual directors and no real benefit to ACL in doing so.

Yes ACL has a dependence on CCFC rent if they sit and do nothing. There is nothing in the past to suggest that the management style is to sit and do nothing however. Can they replace their tenant - perhaps or maybe they can bring in several new tenants. Could they use the space in a different way - perhaps but it might require new funds. Are the other sources of income they could develop ? - perhaps but it takes time. Could ACL look at their own annual costs and restructure - perhaps because if they dont have to pay out as much each year then the reliance on CCFC for 15% of their income is not such a problem. Yes they have taken a concilliatory stance over the rent so far - they want CCFC to succeed, but we shouldnt mistake that for their directors sitting doing nothing. All these things are possible from ACL's point of view - it wouldnt be easy and there would be some tough times - but it is all possible. Could that change the game in favour of ACL - yes and it might also encourage the Charity not to sell.

Do SISU hold all the cards ?........... not necessarily

 

[cyril]

Good post pal