Gaz
Well-Known Member
So he does go mental at his players at times and has a good record of getting teams promoted.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Must be doing somthing right then.
Observations from Saturday (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter olderskyblue
- Start date
So he does go mental at his players at times and has a good record of getting teams promoted.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Must be doing somthing right then.
kg82
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree about going up. I just think its completely over-simplifying the situation to say it's all thorns fault we went down, thorn won't get us back up because he's hopeless etc etc. We're 1 game into the new season... ONE game, and the thorn debate is the ONLY thing that seems to be getting talked about.
I also don't see how you cannot admit other factors were involved in last season's debacle. It wasn't all thorn, as much as it would seem it was from all of this.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
Although, unless I am mistaken, Grendel has opined that he would still call for his head if we went up this season.
Gaz
Well-Known Member
Wrong.
Your sidekick said on another thread that Thorn should get the boot even if he gets us back to the championship as he has failed there before.
kg82
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, you're wrong. I'm not saying its you, but there are some posters who come on to just spout nonsense about the bloke.
Sky Blues
Active Member
This is getting very tiring. The OP opened up with some interesting observations, Nick broadened it a bit with his comment about shouting - but also pleaded for it not to descend into a Thorn In/Out debate. A few of us have tried to engage with topic, but it just gets drowned out by this continual Thorn In/Out debate, which seems to infect threads like the common cold.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There will always be people who refer to physique (if that is what you mean) if the going gets tough. Strachan had it, Dowie has had it in spades - it's just the way it is.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The question was posed and my answer was I would still believe him to be incapable of making a step up to Championship level and actually was not the only one who expressed that view. Th squad should be competitive in this league anyway but would have no chance if we got promoted.
So if we get promoted you would not change any players - after all they got us there?
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
Shouting at players is only wrong when Thorn does it, it is fine for anyone else, when Thorn does it, it demoralises the players.
If he started trying to encourage and put the arm around the shoulder then Thorn is not motivating them to play well and by doing this he is letting the players know mediocre is acceptable
If he started trying to encourage and put the arm around the shoulder then Thorn is not motivating them to play well and by doing this he is letting the players know mediocre is acceptable
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
It staggered me that you would maintain your fiercely anti-Thorn stance (i.e. probably 98% of your comments on here relate to Thorn, so there is little wonder so many threads become so circular), even if we were promoted back to the Championship. It smacked of someone who was more tied up with being proved right than the development of the club they support (a claim you have started to attribute to the opposition with some regularity). I asked about it and you responded that you thought he was detrimental to our club. When given the proviso that we finish this season with promotion and stay up the next season, you said you still wanted him out. You then dropped the point and moved on to something that betrayed your huge bias a little less (this is why I often ask for a little balance and objectivity... it makes for a more coherent discussion than the usual bollocks on here). If the question you posed is not rhetorical and you genuinely need a response, let me know.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
If promoted would you change any of the playing squad?
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
Yes, of course. Do you think that is exactly the same thing as replacing the manager? Is it relevant?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
And you you have a personal dislike for the players you fell should be replaced.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
When did I mention your personal dislike for Thorn? You are starting to lose me, let me know what I am saying and how you are countering it. I hope I don't end up looking foolish, just watch how it all pans out for me..?
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I think that virtually every team that gets promoted "changes some players", i.e. trys to stregthen their squad.
I can't offhand think of any club that has sacked their manager on gaining promotion.
Perhaps you're getting a little obsessed??
DazzleTommyDazzle
Well-Known Member
I think some of the recent "anti Thorn" comments on here have been faintly ridiculous - in particular the fuss about the post match comments from Yeovil - however I'm inclined to agree with OSB's observations about too much shouting at individual players - particularly the younger ones.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
The difficulty with Thorn is that most people on here have a stance on him. The things you see and hear tend to confirm your stance further. If you think he is useless (which a proportion on here quite clearly do), are you more likely to hear him balling out the youngsters due to your own misgivings as well as the raised volume? Perhaps. Are you more likely to pick out the phrases in a press conference that you disagree with? Perhaps. I think you are broadly right... there needs to be a carrot as well as a stick, but I don't think there can be huge objections to a 'good cop / bad cop' approach if it seems to do the trick (i.e. leads to improvements in the long term careers of the players in question or short term benefits on the pitch).
No one knows what goes on behind closed doors, but I am not sold on the idea that Thorn picks on his younger players. ROD is not a youngster, but was not getting any game time, and could not speak highly enough of Thorn when I had a long chat with him last season. It's always worth going with what you see, I'm not sure of what he said or how he said it... so, without questioning what the person who did thought, I can't really say one way or the other whether I think it was fair or unfair.
No one knows what goes on behind closed doors, but I am not sold on the idea that Thorn picks on his younger players. ROD is not a youngster, but was not getting any game time, and could not speak highly enough of Thorn when I had a long chat with him last season. It's always worth going with what you see, I'm not sure of what he said or how he said it... so, without questioning what the person who did thought, I can't really say one way or the other whether I think it was fair or unfair.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
People say that some posters (one assumes me, Sick Boy, Summerisle) have a vendetta against Thorn - it is personal. I am merely trying to illustrate the comment is ridiculous it is not personal you change staff to suit.
The fact is if Thorn gets the club promoted he is going nowhere. However many managers get clubs promoted and then get the boot that season when they struggle (Warnock last season and look at Phil Brown). So the comment is not especially outlandish but is not relevant as promotion will be very unlikely and he will remain in the job at least until we see how we did in the championship.
In truth what I get really irritated by is the holier than though attitide by some on here who seem almost to suggest it is beneath them to debate the issue. Given the recent history of the club I find that incredible especially as it is the main topic on phone-in's and other message boards.
Also I never start the discussion and often someone says some over positive comment about him which starts me off.
I will try and refrain in future.
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
See the thread thorn and shaw are useless.... (no idea how to link it)
kg82
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing the first comment is referring to me? But I even said you haven't been personal. I said some users. Which I completely stand by.
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
The secret of good management is knowing how to get the best out of an individual - there are some who only respond to being yelled at, some who will go even further into their shell if shouted at, some who will become belligerent and do the opposite to what they are asked if shouted at, some who respond well to a quiet friendly word and arm around the shoulder, others who see this as weakness and take advantage, some who can have a discussion about something others who just need to be told etc etc. This is where people like Ferguson, Shankley, Clough were/are brilliant - being a good manager isn't all just about tactics and being witty and urbane in interviews, its also about man management and knowing what works best for each individual.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No - others have said "vendetta", "grudge", "dislike" - or discussing the manager issue is for "children" and let's have sub forums and let the grown ups have proper discussions.
These things irritate and I respond
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
I think someone mentioned the fact that some of the verbal 'attacks' on Thorn can be quite personal. Comments about him being a borderline illiterate, fat and unable to look after himself. I didn't mention it, so am not sure why it was put across to me. I will try to refrain from coming across as holier than thou... I just don't like the fact that spurious claims are laid at people's feet when they are trying to talk through their points in reasonable and reflective manners.
Your comment that you would want Thorn to be sacked if he got us promoted is fairly outlandish as it stands. You seem to be stating in effect that nothing will change your mind on Thorn. I don't think the performance at Yeovil means he should be sacked (going on what I saw at the game). I don't think he covered himself in glory. I don't think his position is untenable, that he is untouchable, that he should never be sacked. I go on what I see and try to discuss what is written in a fairly direct manner on here.
For what it is worth, I don't think the debate is beneath me. I think it is pertinent to the Club I support. I do think it hi-jacks a vast number of threads, that spurious claims are placed on others, that it goes round in circles and that it takes the edge off proceedings. If I mention that, it is my opinion. If you feel I am getting at you, it is unintentional and may just be because you have prominently featured on the thread.
Nick
Administrator
Totally. It is hard to say what players react to without knowing, if McSheffrey is playing poor (as an example) then Thorn shouts at him and then he plays a blinding 2nd half and gets a hat trick then the idea to shout at him is spot on.
However if it doesn't, then the decision might have been wrong.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
McSheffrey looked like a journeyman approaching the latter stages of his career, content to pick up his pay packet to me. A strong indictment, but for each set piece delivery to be cleared by the first man is fairly unforgivable. If he is taking them all, then he should put in extra hours on the training pitch to ensure that the delivery improves. Simple as that, they were not good enough and professional pride (let alone being a Cov fan) should dictate that he should ensure they become better or he is relieved of said duties during the next game he is seen to struggle.
Slightly off topic, but his performance would certainly have provoked a bollocking from me. One of our senior players, came on with plenty of time to effect our performance, offered little. I would be much less critical of Daniels, given his age and inexperience, his getting used to an unfamiliar position, and the fact I think he did some things quite well during the game. I don't know if this is a bit simplistic - perhaps ideally, but it underestimates the power of a trusted and balanced backroom and discounts what goes on behind closed doors.
Slightly off topic, but his performance would certainly have provoked a bollocking from me. One of our senior players, came on with plenty of time to effect our performance, offered little. I would be much less critical of Daniels, given his age and inexperience, his getting used to an unfamiliar position, and the fact I think he did some things quite well during the game. I don't know if this is a bit simplistic - perhaps ideally, but it underestimates the power of a trusted and balanced backroom and discounts what goes on behind closed doors.
1nilandwe...
Well-Known Member
I wish someone could show me where these posts are. I can't recall a single one.
SkyBlue_Bear83
Well-Known Member
I wasn't there but it depends how it is done, if he is just shouting instructions then he will need to shout to be heard surely. Also I doubt the players pay too much attention to what is being shouted during the match as they are concentrating on the game. By selecting Daniels that should give the young guy all the confidence he needs and shown faith in him anyway
I think what is said in the dressing room after the game and at HT is far more important than any throw away remarks the coaching staff say in the heat of a game
Stevec189
New Member
It must be extremely difficult for Thorn, Shaw, Carsley and Oggy since they are more technically gifted than any of the players under there command. If instructions are given and you then see players dis regarding them due to percieved lack of confidence or ability or stubboness I think you would shout at them. Do people really expect them to stand there and say "Billy old chap - mark the number 10 a bit tighter old chap would you only he is getting past you every time" or a good old shout , yell and explitive to get the message across? Or perhaps you suggest you hand them a well written note - get real - has to be shouted out and they will know what makes them respond. We have no idea since we o not know andy of the individuals.
Lets get behind them tomorrow and particularly Saturday which will in my minbd be the acid test.
PUSB
Lets get behind them tomorrow and particularly Saturday which will in my minbd be the acid test.
PUSB
Now there was once a manager who did that ,sent on a sub with a note ,was it one of ours?Anyone remember?
Nick
Administrator
Exactly, it depends on what is said and the content.
He could shout :
"You are dog shit awful, fucking mark him you useless prick"
or he could say
"Get fucking tight to their man, dont let him past you"
Either can be shouted and be a lot different in context.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Dont think anyone is saying dont shout at the player, we all know it goes on in sport and accept it .......... but make it constructive. If the coaching staff have to resort to prolonged angry shouting in the first match of the season to get the message across after 7 weeks of pre season, then that makes me query what is going on.
If the coach/manager cant keep their composure then that is often reflected on the pitch. Many messages lose the intended meaning when said in a consistent angry manner. Bottom line though is if the player isnt doing what is asked the coach/manager has the power (all game) to change it. Anger is often as not caused not just by the actions of the player but also the actions or inaction of the coach or reflects other frustrations away from the game which find the point of least resistance for expression
not saying cant get angry either ......... but focus it and use it to positive effect ........... sooner or later players just ignore an constantly angry coach and switch off even when he isnt angry
It isnt about getting real, or being nice or gentlemanly......... it is about using and understanding the tools you have as player, manager or coach to get the best out of the team ........... prolonged consistent angry shouting is not a great tool to use.
and nope this is not an attack on AT ...... it applies to any coach or manager
If the coach/manager cant keep their composure then that is often reflected on the pitch. Many messages lose the intended meaning when said in a consistent angry manner. Bottom line though is if the player isnt doing what is asked the coach/manager has the power (all game) to change it. Anger is often as not caused not just by the actions of the player but also the actions or inaction of the coach or reflects other frustrations away from the game which find the point of least resistance for expression
not saying cant get angry either ......... but focus it and use it to positive effect ........... sooner or later players just ignore an constantly angry coach and switch off even when he isnt angry
It isnt about getting real, or being nice or gentlemanly......... it is about using and understanding the tools you have as player, manager or coach to get the best out of the team ........... prolonged consistent angry shouting is not a great tool to use.
and nope this is not an attack on AT ...... it applies to any coach or manager
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DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
I don't think AT could maintain an angry projection on the sidelines for 90 minutes. I wouldn't say he ever looks like he is ranting or raving throughout.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Not saying he could DiveDive but if as an individual player you only receive angry messages from the manager and coach would that inspire most people to do better .......... am only going on what the OP said about lots of such shouting at yeovil...... bottom line is though if it isn't working the player isn't doing as required for whatever reason, change it ............ it isnt like last season there is experience on the bench not young academy lads
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
Last year I watched Harrison shout abuse at players and thought how unhelpful his approach was. Now it seems your suggestion OSB is that there are similar chants from Thorn and worsening for me from all the coaching staff?
Clearly too many cheifs will not garner respect or understanding from players. As you rightly pointed out there seems to be no 'captain' on the pitch with directional presence? (Maybe we need Clingan back? who can't get a club)
We have in Shaw and Thorn relative learners and that will bite them hard from every angle if they are not careful. Carsley was immensley successful as a coach last year and his approach got results. One wonders if there are splits in the ranks and pressure already.
Clearly too many cheifs will not garner respect or understanding from players. As you rightly pointed out there seems to be no 'captain' on the pitch with directional presence? (Maybe we need Clingan back? who can't get a club)
We have in Shaw and Thorn relative learners and that will bite them hard from every angle if they are not careful. Carsley was immensley successful as a coach last year and his approach got results. One wonders if there are splits in the ranks and pressure already.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
wasnt my suggestion Paxman i was responding to the view expressed by the OP 
.
Clingan can be a decent player but just isnt a decent captain imo.
Not sure if there are splits in the camp but i would think there is a fair bit of pressure and stress
. Clingan can be a decent player but just isnt a decent captain imo.
Not sure if there are splits in the camp but i would think there is a fair bit of pressure and stress