Nottingham Serious Incident (1 Viewer)

[skybluetony176]

There was an arrest warrant against him and he refused his medication

Hold on. Are you suggesting that people with serious mental health issues don’t behave rationally? You should write to people who work in this field, I’m sure they’ll be flabbergasted by your observations.

I’m fully aware that there was a warrant out for his arrest, I raised that point in the first place. Outstanding for 9 months by the time he killed his three victims. You seem to think it’s a gotcha but the reality is it confirms the point I made about austerity and how its affects the polices ability to do their job efficiently. 9 months. Nick says he went on the run. All the way from Nottingham to… checks notes… Nottingham. He stayed in the exact same city the whole 9 months not being arrested on the outstanding warrant.

 

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[Nick]

Hold on. Are you suggesting that people with serious mental health issues don’t behave rationally? You should write to people who work in this field, I’m sure they’ll be flabbergasted by your observations.

I’m fully aware that there was a warrant out for his arrest, I raised that point in the first place. Outstanding for 9 months by the time he killed his three victims. You seem to think it’s a gotcha but the reality is it confirms the point I made about austerity and how its affects the polices ability to do their job efficiently. 9 months. Nick says he went on the run. All the way from Nottingham to… checks notes… Nottingham. He stayed in the exact same city the whole 9 months not being arrested on the outstanding warrant.

"On the run" doesn't have to mean he went to Spain or is literally running.

"The whole 9 months..." It literally shows him getting the train back from London the day before. You need better notes.

He was actively trying to evade the police and the authorities.

It's murder, your desperation to try and twist everything to the politics is worrying. Probably why you stopped bothering with the football.

Nobody who kills people is thinking rationally, it's still murder.

 

[Grendel]

Hold on. Are you suggesting that people with serious mental health issues don’t behave rationally? You should write to people who work in this field, I’m sure they’ll be flabbergasted by your observations.

I’m fully aware that there was a warrant out for his arrest, I raised that point in the first place. Outstanding for 9 months by the time he killed his three victims. You seem to think it’s a gotcha but the reality is it confirms the point I made about austerity and how its affects the polices ability to do their job efficiently. 9 months. Nick says he went on the run. All the way from Nottingham to… checks notes… Nottingham. He stayed in the exact same city the whole 9 months not being arrested on the outstanding warrant.

You voted for Cameron and austerity you total clown

 

[skybluetony176]

You voted for Cameron and austerity you total clown

I didn’t actually. I voted Clegg. Aside from that your retort was bang on.

 

[Grendel]

I didn’t actually. I voted Clegg. Aside from that your retort was bang on.

lol

Do you want to discuss boring politics?

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www.skybluestalk.co.uk

 

[skybluecam]

Whatever your political leaning, the fact that someone with known paranoid schizophrenia was allowed to roam around for 9 months with a warrant on his head after assaulting a police officer is a massive failing from all parties involved.

It’s insane when you think about it. How many more people like this are out there right now, known to be dangerous but with nothing being done?

 

[Sick Boy]

You voted for Cameron and austerity you total clown

Also voted for Cameron again despite a Brexit referendum being in their manifesto.

 

[skybluetony176]

Also voted for Cameron again despite a Brexit referendum being in their manifesto.

That was the first and only time I voted for Cameron and yes I regret it.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Whatever your political leaning, the fact that someone with known paranoid schizophrenia was allowed to roam around for 9 months with a warrant on his head after assaulting a police officer is a massive failing from all parties involved.

It’s insane when you think about it. How many more people like this are out there right now, known to be dangerous but with nothing being done?

And naive to think there wouldn’t be consequences and that on rare occasions these would be disastrous and tragic

 

[skybluetony176]

Whatever your political leaning, the fact that someone with known paranoid schizophrenia was allowed to roam around for 9 months with a warrant on his head after assaulting a police officer is a massive failing from all parties involved.

It’s insane when you think about it. How many more people like this are out there right now, known to be dangerous but with nothing being done?

1 in 100 people are diagnosed with schizophrenia, or 1% of the population if you want to look at another way. 1 in 6 will seek help for all mental illnesses in their lifetime. There’s also more than one condition linked to violence whether that’s upon yourself or others. Even things like OCD, bipolar and Tourette syndrome can be behind violent behaviour. The fact is there’s a very real link to austerity and a rise in crime and especially true of violent crime, that rise is higher than other crimes. We have missed opportunities and a trend set over a decade failing people with mental illnesses and victims of people with mental illnesses.

 

[Nick]

1 in 100 people are diagnosed with schizophrenia, or 1% of the population if you want to look at another way. 1 in 6 will seek help for all mental illnesses in their lifetime. There’s also more than one condition linked to violence whether that’s upon yourself or others. Even things like OCD, bipolar and Tourette syndrome can be behind violent behaviour. The fact is there’s a very real link to austerity and a rise in crime and especially true of violent crime, that rise is higher than other crimes. We have missed opportunities and a trend set over a decade failing people with mental illnesses and victims of people with mental illnesses.

He didn't want help though, did he?

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

So leaving the political bickering aside (please, FFS!), what do we think of his sentence and the families' objections to it? I understand the Attorney General is considering asking the "leniency" to be reviewed.
My thoughts:-
1. Yes, it's an abhorrent series of acts
2. He clearly has severe mental health issues and has been failed by "care" in the community
3. Was he any more bonkers in that moment than anyone who commits mass murder? I'm not qualified to say
4. The moment they accepted his plea of guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility (and THAT is the wisdom i would challenge), there was little the judge could do than to give him a hospital order
5. The assurances given during the sentencing about what checks and balances would be required before any downgrading of his security status provide some reassurance that he won't be a danger to the public in future. However, we know that these systems have failed multiple times in the past and clever criminals have been able to manipulate and hoodwink doctors and the do-gooders on review boards into believing they are "cured" and can be released.
6. I don't believe you can be given a whole-life hospital order, which is presumably what the families wanted (short of execution, of course)

 

[skybluetony176]

He didn't want help though, did he?

If he was capable of logical thinking he probably wouldn’t have had serious mental health issues in the first place. This really isn’t the gotcha you think it is. People who have serious mental health issues often don’t want help, getting help is often dependent on having the correct support systems in place, if he’d have been arrested at any point during the 9 months the warrant for his arrest was in place before he committed these murders there’s every chance that he would have received the treatment that he clearly needed whether that had been in prison or a secure unit.

 

[Nick]

If he was capable of logical thinking he probably wouldn’t have had serious mental health issues in the first place. This really isn’t the gotcha you think it is. People who have serious mental health issues often don’t want help, getting help is often dependent on having the correct support systems in place, if he’d have been arrested at any point during the 9 months the warrant for his arrest was in place before he committed these murders there’s every chance that he would have received the treatment that he clearly needed whether that had been in prison or a secure unit.

The police have said he probably wouldn't have gone to prison.

He would have been sectioned, which he had multiple times previously. The mental health services tried to get in touch with him multiple times. The support system was in place for him, he chose not to use it.

He chose to not take his meds and seemingly took drugs. How far do you want it to go because you stop trying to defend him?

 

[skybluetony176]

So leaving the political bickering aside (please, FFS!), what do we think of his sentence and the families' objections to it? I understand the Attorney General is considering asking the "leniency" to be reviewed.
My thoughts:-
1. Yes, it's an abhorrent series of acts
2. He clearly has severe mental health issues and has been failed by "care" in the community
3. Was he any more bonkers in that moment than anyone who commits mass murder? I'm not qualified to say
4. The moment they accepted his plea of guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility (and THAT is the wisdom i would challenge), there was little the judge could do than to give him a hospital order
5. The assurances given during the sentencing about what checks and balances would be required before any downgrading of his security status provide some reassurance that he won't be a danger to the public in future. However, we know that these systems have failed multiple times in the past and clever criminals have been able to manipulate and hoodwink doctors and the do-gooders on review boards into believing they are "cured" and can be released.
6. I don't believe you can be given a whole-life hospital order, which is presumably what the families wanted (short of execution, of course)

I really don’t think that if he’d been found guilty of murder given his diagnosed mental health condition the final outcome of his incarceration would have been any different. He’s going to spend the rest of his life in a secure mental health facility having pleaded guilty to man slaughter by diminished responsibility, what tougher sentence could have been passed down.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I really don’t think that if he’d been found guilty of murder given his diagnosed mental health condition the final outcome of his incarceration would have been any different. He’s going to spend the rest of his life in a secure mental health facility having pleaded guilty to man slaughter by diminished responsibility, what tougher sentence could have been passed down.

Think the families are more bothered about justice

 

[skybluetony176]

The police have said he probably wouldn't have gone to prison.

He would have been sectioned, which he had multiple times previously. The mental health services tried to get in touch with him multiple times. The support system was in place for him, he chose not to use it.

He chose to not take his meds and seemingly took drugs. How far do you want it to go because you stop trying to defend him?

This is really where you are stupid. I’m not defending anyone. I’ve not said anything that isn’t cold hard facts. If he’d been sectioned he’d have been in a secure mental health facility given his history of violence, essentially a prison. A support system was in place, that doesn’t mean it was good enough.

 

[skybluetony176]

Think the families are more bothered about justice

Yeah I understand that and in their position I dare say I’d feel the same at this moment in time. Other than the what he’s been sentenced for though I’m not sure that the outcome of his sentencing would be any different.

 

[Nick]

This is really where you are stupid. I’m not defending anyone. I’ve not said anything that isn’t cold hard facts. If he’d been sectioned he’d have been in a secure mental health facility given his history of violence, essentially a prison. A support system was in place, that doesn’t mean it was good enough.

Yes, he had previously been sectioned multiple times.

He had the support system in place, he refused to use it. There are plenty with MH issues who would love to have that option.

You clearly are defending the murderer by chattering on to try and justify it. It was murder, it's a dishonour to the victims and families to claim otherwise.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Both the prosecution and defence each had 2 psychiatric reports that said he was not of sound mind. I'm not sure you can really play the system with this.


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[fernandopartridge]

Yes, he had previously been sectioned multiple times.

He had the support system in place, he refused to use it. There are plenty with MH issues who would love to have that option.

You clearly are defending the murderer by chattering on to try and justify it. It was murder, it's a dishonour to the victims and families to claim otherwise.

It was murder yes. In the eyes of the law though it is manslaughter.

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[Nick]

It was murder yes. In the eyes of the law though it is manslaughter.

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If he was refusing to take his meds and on other sorts of drugs then he was choosing not to be in sound mind.

It's not like his condition was completely unknown and only diagnosed and discovered after the event.

 

[Grendel]

That was the first and only time I voted for Cameron and yes I regret it.

Checks notes

Okay. For the record my voting record at GE’s is as follows.

Major
Major
Blair
Kennedy
Cameron
Cameron
2016 a path that wasn’t a de facto vote for Boris
Corbyn
Corbyn

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yeah I understand that and in their position I dare say I’d feel the same at this moment in time. Other than the what he’s been sentenced for though I’m not sure that the outcome of his sentencing would be any different.

I agree

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

If he was refusing to take his meds and on other sorts of drugs then he was choosing not to be in sound mind.

It's not like his condition was completely unknown and only diagnosed and discovered after the event.

If I felt like some of the people defending him were doing it because they felt it was the right course of justice, I would be compelled to try and debate this more. It's pretty clear though that there's a few people really keen to try and find any excuse to let him off. This very weak and submissive way of thinking is quite worrying, but not exactly surprising either.

If you have a condition like schizophrenia, and then you murder three people, and try to murder three more, all whilst refusing to take your medication, I would argue that's more or less the opposite of diminished responsibility. The CPS are a joke in the UK anyway, and whilst the police usually get the grief, the former really need investigating on a country-wide level as they are not fit for purpose. Many of us on this forum have stories of our own. In this case though, giving him manslaughter but then 'attempted murder' for the three people that survived, just undermines the first sentence and kind of proves the point we are making. I dare to say it but if it was America someone would have just shot him, I'm not sure that would have been anything less than he deserved. He's a total scumbag that doesn't belong in society.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Think the families are more bothered about justice

or maybe revenge and making sure he doesn't get the easy option!

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

I really don’t think that if he’d been found guilty of murder given his diagnosed mental health condition the final outcome of his incarceration would have been any different. He’s going to spend the rest of his life in a secure mental health facility having pleaded guilty to man slaughter by diminished responsibility, what tougher sentence could have been passed down.

Is there still a perception that the Special Hospital Service is a cushy number compared to a Cat A HMP? I haven't spent time in either, but in recent times, the purpose of being in prison is to be rehabilitated not punished, so they probably aren't much different.

As Ellis Boyd "Red" Redding said in Shawshank "Rehabilitated? It's just a bullshit word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time"

 

[fernandopartridge]

If he was refusing to take his meds and on other sorts of drugs then he was choosing not to be in sound mind.

It's not like his condition was completely unknown and only diagnosed and discovered after the event.

Illogical Nick, if he was not of sound mind that extends to decisions to take medication or not

 

[Nick]

Illogical Nick, if he was not of sound mind that extends to decisions to take medication or not

How far does it go?

Does everybody need somebody to force meds down throats every day? At what points does he have to take responsibility?

 

[skybluecam]

How far does it go?

Does everybody need somebody to force meds down throats every day? At what points does he have to take responsibility?

Everybody: no

Violent paranoid schizophrenics: probably yes

 

[skybluecam]

Now reporting that he assaulted two people less than 6 weeks before, while still having a warrant out for his arrest yet police still didn't arrest him. Baffling.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Now reporting that he assaulted two people less than 6 weeks before, while still having a warrant out for his arrest yet police still didn't arrest him. Baffling.

Sounds like there could be grounds for Notts Police to be referred to the IOPC.

Incidentally, what a total balls by Norfolk Police and mental health teams on this sad case near Norwich. Multiple opportunities to answer his cries for help were missed and now four people are dead, including two innocent children.

 

[Nick]

Everybody: no

Violent paranoid schizophrenics: probably yes

1 in 100 people are Schizophrenic, not all have violence on their record but if they aren't in the right mind......

 

[skybluetony176]

Now reporting that he assaulted two people less than 6 weeks before, while still having a warrant out for his arrest yet police still didn't arrest him. Baffling.

At his place of work. Assaulted 2 colleagues and had to be tasered to be arrested. Also being reported that the police bullshitted to the family and told them that he was of no fixed abode which is why they couldn’t track him down. Turns out he had a permanent address and was known to be living there. Which would also explain why he was in employment for at least periods of time between the warrant being issued and committing these 3 murders.

 

[skybluetony176]

How far does it go?

Does everybody need somebody to force meds down throats every day? At what points does he have to take responsibility?

I have a friend who has bipolar. They’ve been committed 3 times, twice voluntary, once by force. They’re diagnosed, medicated and 99.9% of the time function normally. They’re raising a family, very well educated, have a full time job etc. but they have flare ups triggered usually by stress which means that the meds become less effective. The 2 times they voluntarily committed was on the depression side of the curve, the time they were forcibly committed was on the manic side of their curve. They stopped taking their medication and things very quickly escalate. They went missing for a period of time, started posting stuff online that was so batshit crazy you just couldn’t believe the posts were from the person you knew. They’re lucky in many respects. They have a good support network around them in terms of family and friends and in the mental healthcare lottery they happen to have a postcode where mental healthcare is fairly decent by today’s standards, IIRC Nottingham ranks pretty low in that lottery.