Nopm (7 Viewers)

[Godiva]

Well you started it, just how stupid do you think most of us on here are?

You seem dertermined to turn the attention away from my post. Why is that?
If you don't have a reply to the content could you please not reply at all?

 

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[wingy]

You seem dertermined to turn the attention away from my post. Why is that?
If you don't have a reply to the content could you please not reply at all?

I think your wrong on NOPM,I'd say Its KCIC that Is exerting the political pressure.

 

[RPHunt]

You seem dertermined to turn the attention away from my post. Why is that?
If you don't have a reply to the content could you please not reply at all?

Far from turning attention away from your post, I actually quoted it and could quote it again if you wish, but I am sure everyone has had a good laugh at it by now.

Also, I did reply and if that reply does not tell you how abjectly ridiculous I thought your post was, then I cannot help you any further.

 

[No future with SISU]

No facts there to back any of that up - just wishful thinking. Otium will have done a budget reforecast at the time it was apparent that 1500 people would be the average gate per game. on the basis of that, they would have engineered all costs down for the rest of the season to bring the loss down to to their original forecast. If it WAS really hurting them, they would definately say so..they always have in the past.

You know nothing about football revenue forcasting, they do it in the summer for the season starting august to august next year. As fisher forcast 3,000 to 7,000 supporters the money will be way out and they are haveing to find hard cash each month to pay the wages. Why would they tell us it is hurting them as we would all be cheering.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Nobody seem to remember that a coin has two sides.

NOPM is keeping people from going to home games and that understandable makes them pretty angry. That anger may be vented against sisu, but it actually also works in sisu's favor as all the publicity is indirectly hitting the ccc. The politicians cannot just do nothing - they have to act. They need to somehow try to bring the club back. Their first plan failed - Haskell didn't buy the club. Their second choice is to sell to sisu.

Just look and listen to them all. They are the ones who seem to be panicking - not sisu.

NOPM is working - but not the way the creators want.

But it isn't, haven't you noticed there are more anti SISU opinions being expressed here in the last week than ever.
And on a personal level all the conversations in the pub I've been party to or overheard have been putting the blame squarely on SISU.
I don't know if you live or socialise in Coventry, but if you don't maybe you are not getting accurate feedback, don't rely on stories in the local paper, they have an agenda that isn't in line with public opinion.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The point being its not joys money, the same way Richardson thought he could do what he liked , until there became a point when robinson said enough is enough , and they then looked at the books and hey ho £60 mill in the red , sisu will have a tipping point , what happens then nobody knows but nopm will bring nearer

The point being, you invest in such funds because you fancy high risk for high return, and take your chances.

If you invested in such funds, you'd be loving SISU's approach, as it shows flair, imagination... strength.

And risk.

 

[Godiva]

I think your wrong on NOPM,I'd say Its KCIC that Is exerting the political pressure.

That too, but I did say 'indirectly hitting ccc'. It is creating headlines that there is only about 2000 fans attending 'home' games - that fans are showing their disgust and protest by staying away.
If the politicians do nothing they will be seen as weak and incompetent.

So NOPM is hurting sisu's investors, the clubs finances, the managers abillity to draft in recruits (one in - one out policy) ... but also indirectly the politicians who let it all happen on their watch.

 

[No future with SISU]

I'm afraid that the only thing NOPM will achieve will be the reduction of staff budget to compensate. Staff being manager, coaches & players.

I may be wrong but we'll see come the summer.

They have been reducing the staff budget for years, it is why we are in league 1. Even if we were at the ricoh they would sell players.

 

[No future with SISU]

Of course. However, I see NOPM worsening the effect.

How is it worsening the effect when any player under SISU ownership was sold if a bid came in.

 

[Godiva]

But it isn't, haven't you noticed there are more anti SISU opinions being expressed here in the last week than ever.
And on a personal level all the conversations in the pub I've been party to or overheard have been putting the blame squarely on SISU.
I don't know if you live or socialise in Coventry, but if you don't maybe you are not getting accurate feedback, don't rely on stories in the local paper, they have an agenda that isn't in line with public opinion.

I think there is a growing minority who are starting to put more blame on ccc. Today it is totally 'legit' to say ccc have done wrong without immediately being called a sisu plant. It wasn't always the case.
Oppinions changes as more facts comes in to the public domaine.

 

[wince]

The point being, you invest in such funds because you fancy high risk for high return, and take your chances.

If you invested in such funds, you'd be loving SISU's approach, as it shows flair, imagination... strength.

And risk.

no you wouldn't , you risk high , but still have a tipping point ,the forecasts from tim and joy have been wrong thus far ,at the moment its a two horse race , but if a third party entered the race , how much then would they be prepared to throw at ccfc

 

[Deleted member 5849]

no you wouldn't

Yes you would.

 

[No future with SISU]

It isn't working as the premise is flawed.

The whole reason of moving is to take a risk of putting a shot of cash in to gain further down the line, if you don;t gain, then you lose that shot of cash but that's the risk you taker. What you don't do, however, if that risk fails is move the club back and carry on as if nothing has happened as there's little point in that, all you do is continue the reasons you want to take drastic action in the first place, that you have an investment that isn't paying off.

So... not going to Sixfields because you think Cov should be in Cov, or because you can't get there, or you feel uncomfortable watching Cov surrounded by maroon seats, all perfectly reasonable reasons.

Not going because you're so sick of the owners you feel withdrawal of cash hastens a conclusion, and even oblivion followed by revival is better than having the current owners, a logical reason too.

Not going because withdrawal of cash = capitulation and reversion to the status quo, not going to happen.

Not going because withdrawal of cash= SISU selling up( as first plan has failed)

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Not going because withdrawal of cash= SISU selling up( as first plan has failed)

= the club being wiped from the map.

Don't confuse your desires with their strategies.

 

[shmmeee]

I think there is a growing minority who are starting to put more blame on ccc. Today it is totally 'legit' to say ccc have done wrong without immediately being called a sisu plant. It wasn't always the case.
Oppinions changes as more facts comes in to the public domaine.

Not sure what facts have come out, more unsubstantiated opinion masquerading as fact. See Labovitch's statement

“There is no point at all in dredging up the discredited landlord-tenant debate. We cannot return to the clutches of a rapacious landlord which has done so much to damage the club through two generations of ownership.”

Um, why? How? This question has been asked repeatedly and repeatedly we have been refused an answer other than "revenue streams" which a lease doesn't preclude.

I'd argue that the Council has done "so much damage" compared to the overspend on wages, director pay and interest payments and "management fees" over that period. Also, continually shouting "they started it" is hardly the behaviour I want from a director of my club.

 

[James Smith]

Nobody seem to remember that a coin has two sides.

NOPM is keeping people from going to home games and that understandable makes them pretty angry. That anger may be vented against sisu, but it actually also works in sisu's favor as all the publicity is indirectly hitting the ccc. The politicians cannot just do nothing - they have to act. They need to somehow try to bring the club back. Their first plan failed - Haskell didn't buy the club. Their second choice is to sell to sisu.

Just look and listen to them all. They are the ones who seem to be panicking - not sisu.

NOPM is working - but not the way the creators want.

It wasn't that he didn't by the club, according to people on here Haskell could never have bought the club as Otium were always going to bid more because they could....

Probably but the point is Otium will have offered ACL more than Haskell did. That makes a nonsense of any suggestion Haskell should have won the bid. On what grounds?

it was essentially their debt in Ltd so they just bought it back. I think it was sneaky but not illegal, although it probably should be.

 

[wince]

The point being, you invest in such funds because you fancy high risk for high return, and take your chances.

If you invested in such funds, you'd be loving SISU's approach, as it shows flair, imagination... strength.

And risk.

If sixfields was sold out every week you could have a point , but as Saturday proved ccfc at home are on the one hand just letting money down the drain against a gamble of getting the ricoh , such funds want all the money that's on offer plus the ricoh , not one or the other, there is no flair or imagination there

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

I think there is a growing minority who are starting to put more blame on ccc. Today it is totally 'legit' to say ccc have done wrong without immediately being called a sisu plant. It wasn't always the case.
Oppinions changes as more facts comes in to the public domaine.

Interesting.

I see pretty much the opposite.

There has generally been a fair number of people who talked about equal blame.

My view was always that many parties had a hand in creating the background to the problems but that the move to Northampton was an explicit policy of SISU's and was 100% down to them.

Given the rent free offer and the pretty childish response to it ("no offer made directly", "Lucas should get on a train"), I think that more people have realised that whatever the shortcomings of CCC, we are only in exile because of one party.

 

[skybluetony176]

= the club being wiped from the map.

Sh1tsu cant let the club be wiped from the map. its their vehicle to get the Ricoh. no club=no Ricoh=no return for joys investors and she cares about them too much to let that happen.

 

[Godiva]

It wasn't that he didn't by the club, according to people on here Haskell could never have bought the club as Otium were always going to bid more because they could....
it was essentially their debt in Ltd so they just bought it back. I think it was sneaky but not illegal, although it probably should be.

True - the 'wall of debt' put up by sisu made a hostile takeover impossible.
But it wasn't the outcome ccc wanted.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If sixfields was sold out every week you could have a point , but as Saturday proved ccfc at home are on the one hand just letting money down the drain against a gamble of getting the ricoh , such funds want all the money that's on offer plus the ricoh , not one or the other, there is no flair or imagination there

It's nothing to do with the short term value of moving to Northampton, is it.

 

[Buster]

The point being, you invest in such funds because you fancy high risk for high return, and take your chances.

If you invested in such funds, you'd be loving SISU's approach, as it shows flair, imagination... strength.

And risk.

You obviously have nothing to do with finance . 40 million and 1 division down shows stupidity , weakness and a monumental failure in understanding of people and what they will do when they are cornered . Wouldn't give the unscrupulous b@£/@rds one cent of my money

 

[wince]

The point being, you invest in such funds because you fancy high risk for high return, and take your chances.

If you invested in such funds, you'd be loving SISU's approach, as it shows flair, imagination... strength.

And risk.

It's nothing to do with the short term value of moving to Northampton, is it.

From day one sisu have tried to steam losses , cut staff , quality of players ect after 5 years you are saying now they have cut to the barest minimum ,the losses have gone up , not just the fans they have lost but sponsorship and tv money shows flair, imagination... strength. , I don't believe you

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You obviously have nothing to do with finance .

Worked with plenty of people in the game SISU are in, in the past.

Know how they work.

Don't have the financial knowledge of the likes of OSB, do have a knowledge of the game such funds play. That's a different thing to bog standard finance...

But let's not get into dicck waving of who knows more, there are others around, both silent lurkers and active posters, who know more. There's always somebody who knows more...

But to deny a little knowledge is to let SISU in with their good business sense and ruthlessness...

Or let's look at it another way.

Your initial plan is put a slab of cash into the club, hope for a promotion, aim for a 300%, say, return on your investment over 3 years.

It doesn't pay off.

At that point you have a choice, fight or flight. You choose to fight then you know it might lose you some more cash, but it might also recover you some of your initial investment. In effect, you start with a clean slate, as you change your strategy and use what tools you have at your disposal; the rules of the game are set to zero and off we go.

So the inital investment failed, no return. C'est la vie, it happens. Such funds lose more cash than anything you or I will ever lose in my entire lifetime and beyond... but the aim is to win as well, by aiming for the high returns by going for the high risk plays.

Failure is a fact of life to such funds, it doesn't at the end of the day actually 'matter' (of course it matters, but it doesn't 'matter') if it fails, as that's the name of the game, that's the price to pay for taking the risk, and it's a price they go into with their eyes wide open. Call them stupid? That's the first mistake. Call their tenure of Coventry City a failure? Of course... but that's not the same thing, is it. Of course failure is not good to them, but their whole essence depends upon being brave enough to make the plays others don't... and see them through to the end.

If it's all stupidity to lose cash, than this pair must have been remarkably, remarkable stupid: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/1997/merton-bio.html

Sometimes it goes wrong, that's the risk.

Don't confuse figures with the game. The game may shift and change, various players may have their 'thing', but don't for one second suggest the threat of losing this will deter them if the prize on offer is considered sufficient to merit the risk of a massive loss.

 

[James Smith]

True - the 'wall of debt' put up by sisu made a hostile takeover impossible.
But it wasn't the outcome ccc wanted.

It wasn't the outcome a few of fans wanted either.

 

[James Smith]

You obviously have nothing to do with finance . 40 million and 1 division down shows stupidity , weakness and a monumental failure in understanding of people and what they will do when they are cornered . Wouldn't give the unscrupulous b@£/@rds one cent of my money

No it shows stubbornness and an unwavering commitment to NOPM, their version which is directed against ACL*. Sadly for them if PWKH is to be believed they're doing okay without us.

*and the Higgs (unless they've been paid for their HOT costs in which case I withdraw that)

 

[wince]

Worked with plenty of people in the game SISU are in, in the past.

Know how they work.

Don't have the financial knowledge of the likes of OSB, do have a knowledge of the game such funds play. That's a different thing to bog standard finance...

Or let's look at it another way.

Your initial plan is put a slab of cash into the club, hope for a promotion, aim for a 300%, say, return on your investment over 3 years.

It doesn't pay off.

At that point you have a choice, fight or flight. You choose to fight then you know it might lose you some more cash, but it might also recover you some of your initial investment. In effect, you start with a clean slate, as you change your strategy and use what tools you have at your disposal; the rules of the game are set to zero and off we go.

So the inital investment failed, no return. C'est la vie, it happens. Such funds lose more cash than anything you or I will ever lose in my entire lifetime and beyond... but the aim is to win as well, by aiming for the high returns by going for the high risk plays.

Failure is a fact of life to such funds, it doesn't at the end of the day actually matter if it fails, as that's the name of the game, that's the price to pay for taking the risk, and it's a price they go into with their eyes wide open. Call them stupid? That's the first mistake. Call their tenure of Coventry City a failure? Of course... but that's not the same thing, is it.

If it's all stupidity to lose cash, than this pair must have been remarkably, remarkable stupid: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...erton-bio.html

Sometimes it goes wrong, that's the risk.

Don't confuse figures with the game, and the approach

But if you were a high risk investor you wouldn't stay with the same company if they were failing you , you would move to another high risk investment not keep throwing money at the same project , as I said before if you buy an older to do up and it cost more than its worth , you move on to another car not keep spending money on the same car to prove appoint, there comes a tipping point especially when its someones elses money , sisu is not the only hedge fund in town

 

[Godiva]

But if you were a high risk investor you wouldn't stay with the same company if they were failing you , you would move to another high risk investment not keep throwing money at the same project , as I said before if you buy an older to do up and it cost more than its worth , you move on to another car not keep spending money on the same car to prove appoint, there comes a tipping point especially when its someones elses money , sisu is not the only hedge fund in town

The first investors sisu brought in have been replaced with ARVO WHO now owns Otium.
This is important as it shows sisu's abillity to attract new investors when the other are 'used up'.
Should they buy the Ricoh or build a new stadium the Money will most likely come from investors not present involved with ccfc.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But if you were a high risk investor you wouldn't stay with the same company if they were failing you , you would move to another high risk investment not keep throwing money at the same project

not necessarily.

It's context.

We are not alone.

And it's also what you do to chase your tail.

Sometimes, such funds chase their tails so much they end up exploding in a hideous mess.

But you don't back down, that's the point.

If I were an investor and cared nothing for Coventry City I'd be a lot more delighted about this play now, than their initial one. This one shows exactly why I would have chosen to invest in SISU in the first place, this *is* SISU far more than the SISU-lite we had before.

This play fails? I'd still say the attempt to gain value from no value has been a pretty impressive attempt.

And if they carry on that approach elsewhere, some will win, some will lose, but I'd be reassured by their vision and attempts to win, and win big. Maybe I'd end up losing my investment by backing them...

If I hadn't invested before, I'd now be reminded of what SISU were about...

And there's always an ISA, some premium bonds, a savings account and a few shares in boots if I don't care about trying to beat the market, and want to play safe.

 

[wince]

not necessarily.

It's context.

We are not alone.

And it's also what you do to chase your tail.

Sometimes, such funds chase their tails so much they end up exploding in a hideous mess.

But you don't back down, that's the point.

If I were an investor and cared nothing for Coventry City I'd be a lot more delighted about this play now, than their initial one. This one shows exactly why I would have chosen to invest in SISU in the first place, this *is* SISU far more than the SISU-lite we had before.

This play fails? I'd still say the attempt to gain value from no value has been a pretty impressive attempt.

And if they carry on that approach elsewhere, some will win, some will lose, but I'd be reassured by their vision and attempts to win, and win big. Maybe I'd end up losing my investment by backing them...

If I hadn't invested before, I'd now be reminded of what SISU were about...

And there's always an ISA, some premium bonds, a savings account and a few shares in boots if I don't care about trying to beat the market, and want to play safe.

But there is always a tipping point

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But there is always a tipping point

At which point you wind the club up, say OK then, we tried, it failed, but see we showed our strength...

And you walk away to the next project, with maybe the investment lost, but your reputation as hardball negotiators strengthened, your brand values reaffirmed.

 

[wince]

At which point you wind the club up, say OK then, we tried, it failed, but see we showed our strength...

And you walk away to the next project, with maybe the investment lost, but your reputation as hardball negotiators strengthened, your brand values reaffirmed.

Maybe in the business world , but not played out in public everyday , that's why we don't see joy and that's why most city fans first welcomed them

 

[RPHunt]

At which point you wind the club up, say OK then, we tried, it failed, but see we showed our strength...

And you walk away to the next project, with maybe the investment lost, but your reputation as hardball negotiators strengthened, your brand values reaffirmed.

But more importantly, the people with money think you are a crowd of useless twats who can't be relied on to provide a return.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But more importantly, the people with money think you are a crowd of useless twats who can't be relied on to provide a return.

Nope, they see a play that failed, but one that showed strength, imagination, and a desire to generate something from nothing.

Coventry City fans may think you are a crowd of useless twats who can't be relied on to provide a return... but I thought it had already been decided we weren't really their audience?

 

[RPHunt]

Nope, they see a play that failed, but one that showed strength, imagination, and a desire to generate something from nothing.

I am not sure where you get your ideas about investors from. The City abounds with all sorts of risky investments and most investors are interested only in the downside and the return, not how the game is played. If you don't show a return, then you're dead meat. There are no brownie points for style.