Measuring The Tories (7 Viewers)

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
Could be, I don't know.
But the policy I support is nationalisation and it is used in several countries (including the uk) so it's not some stone age policy as you are trying to make out.

The control of private shares is Stone Age. The message also - why should capitalists make profits from utilities when the state can control profits was straight from the little red book

I’m not actually against transport in public hands as it’s a service but then the message was hilarious. They were advertising that season tickets for rich consumers who probably get allowance through their company anyway would go down by 30%. Surely the benefit of public transport is to fund remote area services for pensioners at a loss and find it through high earning commuters. It was a stupid message

The broadband policy was horrific

shmmeee · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
Yeah. The others would be costly. But on the day when the regulator has told water companies they need to reduce leakage by 16% and reduce bills by 50 Pound a year you have to wonder why we are allowing a private company to make money out of a vital natural resource instead of controlling it ourselves.

The utilities make good intellectual arguments. It’s not like there’s actual competition beyond pricing for water and energy. But costly to do. I’d argue they’re second term priorities.

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

See there are antisemitism allegations against 3 Tory MPs in the Jewish chronicle including a new MP who shared a George Soros runs the EU conspiracy video
Can't understand for the life of me why it's not in the mainstream media!

clint van damme · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
The control of private shares is Stone Age. The message also - why should capitalists make profits from utilities when the state can control profits was straight from the little red book

I’m not actually against transport in public hands as it’s a service but then the message was hilarious. They were advertising that season tickets for rich consumers who probably get allowance through their company anyway would go down by 30%. Surely the benefit of public transport is to fund remote area services for pensioners at a loss and find it through high earning commuters. It was a stupid message

The broadband policy was horrific

I've said the broadband policy was unworkable based on listening to experts dismantle it but the same experts have said that the Tory policy isn't feasible either.

And why should private companies make profit from utilities and money flow out of the country.
Especially when they're fail g as the water companies clearly are based on what the regulators have said today

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
I've said the broadband policy was unworkable based on listening to experts dismantle it but the same experts have said that the Tory policy isn't feasible either.

And why should private companies make profit from utilities and money flow out of the country.
Especially when they're fail g as the water companies clearly are based on what the regulators have said today

And when certain of the companies who run them are state controlled entities anyway!

So we end up subsidising other countries' states!

chiefdave · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Which country has took public ownership over private shares?

Glasgow and Cardiff airports were nationalised weren't they?

And the TSA in America.

chiefdave · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
I've said the broadband policy was unworkable based on listening to experts dismantle it but the same experts have said that the Tory policy isn't feasible either.

Something needs to happen, broadband provision in this country is appalling. Rare that a week passes at work where I'm not dealing with issues caused by poor broadband for a company reliant on it.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

chiefdave said:
Glasgow and Cardiff airports were nationalised weren't they?

And the TSA in America.

And what?

Otis · Dec 16, 2019

fatso said:
Why hopefully? Surely you would want the country to thrive and improve for all wouldn’t you? It doesn’t matter which political party achieves the improvements as long as they happen.
For some people, following a political party has become like supporting a football team, which is totally crazy.

I say hopefully, because unfortunately I have zero faith in Boris and think he may well cock the whole thing up.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Dec 16, 2019

Don't know if you noticed about three weeks ago it was being reported that some utility companies (SSE and National Grid) had started setting up holding companies offshore, including Switzerland and China, to ensure a Labour government couldn't get their hands on the shares! It's no surprise that their shares went through the roof when the election result was announced.

fatso · Dec 16, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
Don't know if you noticed about three weeks ago it was being reported that some utility companies (SSE and National Grid) had started setting up holding companies offshore, including Switzerland and China, to ensure a Labour government couldn't get their hands on the shares! It's no surprise that their shares went through the roof when the election result was announced.

Yea, I heard much the same thing, Which is why re-nationalisation was never realistic.

chiefdave · Dec 16, 2019

Anyway lets get back to the Tories after yet another thread has become Grendel bashing Labour and Corbyn.

Over the course of the parliament you'd hold them up against their election promises. Not sure I have much confidence there given what's happened following the last couple of elections. Remember Cameron's contract with the electorate?

Shorter term I'm hoping to hear little of Brexit other than announcements that we've agreed deals on better terms than those we had while a member of the EU. There's no excuse now for Johnson not to deliver on what was promised by the leave campaign so hopefully he can get on with it quickly and quietly.

They also need to work to bring everyone back together. The country can't go on being bitterly divided like this. A good start would be moving the likes of Patel and Rees-Mogg into the background in the reshuffle.

Ccfcsj · Dec 16, 2019

Probably talking bollocks here - and I'm sure they'll be plenty of people on here to confirm it and bash my comments but...

It makes me wonder how the result will affect Coventry. The City voted Labour - will the Tories think (a) Sod Coventry - they didn't want us so they can go to hell or (b) think, Coventry, they didn't vote for us so lets make things rosy for them so they love us when the next election comes around

Sick Boy · Dec 16, 2019

Ccfcsj said:
Probably talking bollocks here - and I'm sure they'll be plenty of people on here to confirm it and bash my comments but...

It makes me wonder how the result will affect Coventry. The City voted Labour - will the Tories think (a) Sod Coventry - they didn't want us so they can go to hell or (b) think, Coventry, they didn't vote for us so lets make things rosy for them so they love us when the next election comes around

Either way I don't think they give a shit. The notion that the lives of those in the most deprived areas are going to suddenly improve under the Tories is ludicrous.

Mild-Mannered Janitor · Dec 16, 2019

I would think they should be held to account on the manifesto, it’s what they asked the public to vote on

Sick Boy · Dec 16, 2019

Oh yes, ensuring that current workers' rights and protections are enshrined into law.

fatso · Dec 16, 2019

Ccfcsj said:
Probably talking bollocks here - and I'm sure they'll be plenty of people on here to confirm it and bash my comments but...

It makes me wonder how the result will affect Coventry. The City voted Labour - will the Tories think (a) Sod Coventry - they didn't want us so they can go to hell or (b) think, Coventry, they didn't vote for us so lets make things rosy for them so they love us when the next election comes around

I dont think it will adversely impact on coventry. The area is now too close to call.
In fact, all 3 Coventry seats, and Warwick/leamington would have been won by the tories if the Brexit party had withdrawn their candidates, and their voters gone for the conservatives instead.
(Bit of a big assumption I know, but the stats don’t lie)

chiefdave · Dec 16, 2019

Ccfcsj said:
It makes me wonder how the result will affect Coventry. The City voted Labour - will the Tories think (a) Sod Coventry - they didn't want us so they can go to hell or (b) think, Coventry, they didn't vote for us so lets make things rosy for them so they love us when the next election comes around

Don't worry, we've got a Conservative West Midlands mayor. Sure everyone remembers him promising to end homelessness as soon as he was elected, wonder if he'll be mentioning that in his campaign literature for the May elections?

chiefdave · Dec 16, 2019

Sick Boy said:
Oh yes, ensuring that current workers' rights and protections are enshrined into law.

Boris Johnson could ditch promise to guarantee workers' rights and environmental protections after Brexit, No 10 suggests

fernandopartridge · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Which country has took public ownership over private shares?

Britain did with the railways after the war. Anyway, renationalisation is to occur incrementally when franchises end. The Train Operating Companies are only really special purpose vehicles for the purpose of the franchise, e.g. Virgin East and West Coast were two different companies. They are redundant once they don't have a contract.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
Listening to activists and analysis over the last couple of days on 5live a fair few have said they got good feedback on the doorsteps about policy but people didn't think Corbyn was capable of delivering.

Sometimes people can just be being nice/agreeable to get you off their doorstep. Haven't heard the Tories say "people hated our policies, they just hated Corbyn more"

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
No they need to learn that despises socialism and either live with it or become a fringe sixth form debating society - we won’t be renationalising anything, we won’t be denying people to spend their hard earned money on their children’s education, we won’t be hiking up company tax levels to ensure outward investment becomes a thing of the past, we wont be forcing companies to surrender shares to the state

These are the politics of the Jurassic era and no one wants them

Nobody wants them apart from all those countries that have a number of those policies, and often massively outperform us on many metrics outside of economy size and on the whole have a very contented population.

In our capitalist society the failure of anything even slightly left-leaning is pretty much a fait accompli because those in charge of the markets create the conditions of failure deliberately to stop anyone seeing it as an alternative. A potentially left-leaning policy and they send the pound/SE down creating a negative impact around it.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Nobody wants them apart from all those countries that have a number of those policies, and often massively outperform us on many metrics outside of economy size and on the whole have a very contented population.

In our capitalist society the failure of anything even slightly left-leaning is pretty much a fait accompli because those in charge of the markets create the conditions of failure deliberately to stop anyone seeing it as an alternative. A potentially left-leaning policy and they send the pound/SE down creating a negative impact around it.

List the industrialised nations that have these policies

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2019

clint van damme said:
I've said the broadband policy was unworkable based on listening to experts dismantle it but the same experts have said that the Tory policy isn't feasible either.

And why should private companies make profit from utilities and money flow out of the country.
Especially when they're fail g as the water companies clearly are based on what the regulators have said today

Water firms hit by toughest crackdown in 30 years

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
List the industrialised nations that have these policies

Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, France, Germany, New Zealand.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, France, Germany, New Zealand.

Germany Tony? Care to elaborate? They seize assets already in private ownership? I’d love to see evidence of that. They demand companies sell shares back to the state? really?

As for the rest well let’s start with Iceland - it’s population is less than Coventry and Warwickshire isn’t it?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
The control of private shares is Stone Age. The message also - why should capitalists make profits from utilities when the state can control profits was straight from the little red book

I’m not actually against transport in public hands as it’s a service but then the message was hilarious. They were advertising that season tickets for rich consumers who probably get allowance through their company anyway would go down by 30%. Surely the benefit of public transport is to fund remote area services for pensioners at a loss and find it through high earning commuters. It was a stupid message

The broadband policy was horrific

Control of private shares isn't Stone Age - it's actually a sensible progression of corp tax. Companies minimise tax bills and avoid it where possible to increase dividend payouts - the public and private sector are at total odds with one another and it becomes this battle with govt passing more legislation to close loopholes while the companies spend a fortune looking for new ones. Everyone is wasting time and resources looking to get one over the other.

So instead of charging corp tax having shares in the company that gives the country dividends works for everyone. The private shareholders get their slice of the cake and society as a whole gets a benefit from those same dividends. Both private and public sector want the same thing and are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Plus with that the public sector also want to make sure that the companies have the best infrastructure, skilled workforce to increase that dividend and so invest in it. If the shareholding is at a level whereby the state can't overturn company decisions then their ability to interfere is minimal and no more than it is through passing legislation.

Reading what you write on here really does give me flashbacks to doing my reading at uni - it's almost word for word from the textbooks. You're like those people going around waving a Bible/religious text of choice in the air and proclaiming it the truth when the actual truth is they've never truly looked at it with a critical/questioning eye. Once you do you quickly go "hang on, that doesn't make sense"

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 16, 2019

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
Don't know if you noticed about three weeks ago it was being reported that some utility companies (SSE and National Grid) had started setting up holding companies offshore, including Switzerland and China, to ensure a Labour government couldn't get their hands on the shares! It's no surprise that their shares went through the roof when the election result was announced.

Well it is because with a Tory win setting up offshore was a complete waste of time, effort and money.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Control of private shares isn't Stone Age - it's actually a sensible progression of corp tax. Companies minimise tax bills and avoid it where possible to increase dividend payouts - the public and private sector are at total odds with one another and it becomes this battle with govt passing more legislation to close loopholes while the companies spend a fortune looking for new ones. Everyone is wasting time and resources looking to get one over the other.

So instead of charging corp tax having shares in the company that gives the country dividends works for everyone. The private shareholders get their slice of the cake and society as a whole gets a benefit from those same dividends. Both private and public sector want the same thing and are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Plus with that the public sector also want to make sure that the companies have the best infrastructure, skilled workforce to increase that dividend and so invest in it. If the shareholding is at a level whereby the state can't overturn company decisions then their ability to interfere is minimal and no more than it is through passing legislation.

Reading what you write on here really does give me flashbacks to doing my reading at uni - it's almost word for word from the textbooks. You're like those people going around waving a Bible/religious text of choice in the air and proclaiming it the truth when the actual truth is they've never truly looked at it with a critical/questioning eye. Once you do you quickly go "hang on, that doesn't make sense"

Perhaps you’d like to come back to me with the IFS forecast on shareholder values of these policies and then we can have a text book discussion on them. Let’s start with the co operating purchase of shares in companies. What was the forecast losses for the economy from the IFS and why do you disagree with their views?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
List the industrialised nations that have these policies

Scandinavian countries have quite a few of them.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Scandinavian countries have quite a few of them.

How many of those have an industrialised society like ours

How many have actually bought back private shares into public ownership

How many have actually distributed shares to workers in private companies (one did with disastrous consequences)

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
Germany Tony? Care to elaborate? They seize assets already in private ownership? I’d love to see evidence of that. They demand companies sell shares back to the state? really?

As for the rest well let’s start with Iceland - it’s population is less than Coventry and Warwickshire isn’t it?

Yes Germany. Size is irrelevant, Iceland punch well above their weight, happier than us too despite spending 3 months of the year in near total darkness when the suicide rate spikes. No comment on the rest? Should have added Japan to the list as well, arguably the best rail network in the world.

Grendel · Dec 16, 2019

skybluetony176 said:
Yes Germany. Size is irrelevant, Iceland punch well above their weight, happier than us too despite spending 3 months of the year in near total darkness when the suicide rate spikes. No comment on the rest? Should have added Japan to the list as well, arguably the best rail network in the world.

When did these countries nationalise and take shares off private companies, this isn’t difficult.

skybluetony176 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
When did these countries nationalise and take shares off private companies, this isn’t difficult.

It’s irrelevant. As usual you don’t like the answer so you’re moving the goalposts.

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 16, 2019

Grendel said:
How many have actually bought back private shares into public ownership

Ah, so because we ripped off the public by privatising them recently where other countries didn't, it's deviant socialism to revert to par rather than pay other state companies to run our services.

I see...

Measuring The Tories (7 Viewers)

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