Matchday Costs at the Ricoh - What do you get? (1 Viewer)

Jack Griffin · Feb 15, 2014

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For the record I would like to point out I did not start this thread or chose the thread title, my original post was in response to other posters raising the issue, I was seeking information to see if they had a reasonable argument I wasn't simply rubbishing their argument.

A moderator selected and moved most of these posts from here http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/42390-Match-Off?p=650986&viewfull=1#post650986

I would not have agree to the move to a separate topic if I was asked, I was not consulted, I think at the very least a moderator should have opened the thread him/herself and explained this.

Sick Boy said:
Do you honestly believe that the rent that we were being charged was fair? How about to what ACL are now charging Leicester U21's to train and play their 'home' matches at the Ricoh?

The rent along with the match day costs was not sustainable in the long term.

They don't have to pay for police, stewards, stadium security, ambulance and cleaning after a game with 12,000 spectators.
There are probably only 50 to 100 watching Leicester U21's all in one stand. Matchday costs are never going to be in the same field for a match like that.

If anyone has any published figures from other stadiums I would be interested in a link.

I did pick up details on a few police costs on FOI answers, Arsenal are about £1M/season, Everton/Liverpool about £600,000/season, I would guess Coventry Ricoh would have been north of £100,000/season.

stupot07 · Feb 15, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
They don't have to pay for police, stewards, stadium security, ambulance and cleaning after a game with 12,000 spectators.
There are probably only 50 to 100 watching Leicester U21's all in one stand. Matchday costs are never going to be in the same field for a match like that.

If anyone has any published figures from other stadiums I would be interested in a link.

I did pick up details on a few police costs on FOI answers, Arsenal are about £1M/season, Everton/Liverpool about £600,000/season, I would guess Coventry Ricoh would have been north of £100,000/season.

Pretty sure the club paid for police, ambulance and stewards/security directly on top of the 'matchday costs' they paid ACL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

ccfc92 · Feb 15, 2014

stupot07 said:
Pretty sure the club paid for police, ambulance and stewards/security directly on top of the 'matchday costs' they paid ACL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Surely that would be the matchday costs?

Jack Griffin · Feb 15, 2014

stupot07 said:
Pretty sure the club paid for police, ambulance and stewards/security directly on top of the 'matchday costs' they paid ACL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

OK, a bit of searching and... ACL answer to SBT

Q5. What do match day expenses cover? Please define the costs involved?

A5. Match-day costs include, contributions towards the groundsman ( previously employed by the club and now by ACL), the pitch treatments, the equipment to maintain the pitch, a contribution towards match-day utilities, hygiene, maintenance staff, waste disposal, statutory compliance, match-day stadium safety and control room management. The proposal excluded police, West Midlands Ambulance, St Johns Ambulance, medical personnel, ticketing staff, stewards as these remain an obligation of the football club, which has always been the case, and would be a requirement at any other venue. Costs for the remainder of 13/14 season would equate to £8,470 per match and for 14/15 and 15/16 seasons £12,316 per match.

Club position when they rejected last offer http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/sport-opinion/sisu-rejected-latest-ricoh-arena-6373747

* Coventry City have disputed the description of ACL’s latest offer as rent-free for the rest of this season. The club say ACL’s charge for matchday costs (around £12,000 per match) includes a host of items (including pitch maintenance, utlitlies and hygiene) covered by the rent at Sixfields, where matchday costs are for ambulance, police and stewards.

So you are right, I can't understand why it is only 8.5K/match this year & 12K in subsequent seasons.. unless it includes costs to relay the pitch or something.

Nick · Feb 15, 2014

So just over 10k difference to Leicester? What wood in theory be different? More cleaners for the rubbish? Genuine question

Jack Griffin · Feb 15, 2014

Nick said:
So just over 10k difference to Leicester? What wood in theory be different? More cleaners for the rubbish? Genuine question

The answer is above.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2014

Nick said:
So just over 10k difference to Leicester? What wood in theory be different? More cleaners for the rubbish? Genuine question

As I have always said the vast majority of matchday costs are fixed. Of course they don't include policing, stewards etc. perhaps someone like italiahorse or chiefdave who have constantly maintained the crowd size is a big factor will explain which of these costs are variable.

Rusty Trombone · Feb 15, 2014

Nick said:
So just over 10k difference to Leicester? What wood in theory be different? More cleaners for the rubbish? Genuine question

I don't know what costs would be different, but often when things are sold the price for the same thing can vary. For example when you buy a ticket for a child the same seat is cheaper, but all the overheads are the same, a pensioner may be loaded but gets a cheap ticket, the examples are endless.

I guess when a company sells something that they know the buyer can make lots of money out of, the price goes up.

Nick · Feb 15, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
The answer is above.

Where? Won't most of that be the same apart from fan rubbish?

Jack Griffin · Feb 15, 2014

Grendel said:
As I have always said the vast majority of matchday costs are fixed. Of course they don't include policing, stewards etc. perhaps someone like italiahorse or chiefdave who have constantly maintained the crowd size is a big factor will explain which of these costs are variable.

Not really, the cleaning & security safety costs are rather crowd dependent, power & water will be more for a large crowd, especially for a floodlit game.
Also if the club owned its own stadium it has to pay for 100% of the pitch maintenance, so I imagine exclusive use means those are covered by the club.

I do not pretend to know what actual costs are likely to be and whether there is any built in profit to those fees, if anyone can provide accurate figures, e.g from another club, I would be interested.

Nick · Feb 15, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Not really, the cleaning & security safety costs are rather crowd dependent, power & water will be more for a large crowd, especially for a floodlit game.
Also if the club owned its own stadium it has to pay for 100% of the pitch maintenance, so I imagine exclusive use means those are covered by the club.

I do not pretend to know what actual costs are likely to be and whether there is any built in profit to those fees, if anyone can provide accurate figures, e.g from another club, I would be interested.

Do they only turn half the flood lights on for smaller games? I guess lights etc will be more as well as water for toilets but the food places will be up to them to sort.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Not really, the cleaning & security safety costs are rather crowd dependent, power & water will be more for a large crowd, especially for a floodlit game.
Also if the club owned its own stadium it has to pay for 100% of the pitch maintenance, so I imagine exclusive use means those are covered by the club.

I do not pretend to know what actual costs are likely to be and whether there is any built in profit to those fees, if anyone can provide accurate figures, e.g from another club, I would be interested.

Isn't this just a case of effectively offering the ground out cheaply to show the Ricoh still is a commercial entity and also for publicity?

Also as the biggest council troll on here doesn't it sit even slightly uneasy to you that the club wee paying £1.3 million rent AND inflated matchday costs?

Noggin · Feb 15, 2014

Nick said:
Do they only turn half the flood lights on for smaller games? I guess lights etc will be more as well as water for toilets but the food places will be up to them to sort.

I think he was describing what costs wern't fixed and really meant power and water will be more for a large crowd and power will be especially more for a floodlit game. not that the floodlight costs will be more with a bigger crowd.

amusing Grendel is discussing this after criticising me for posting off topic in this thread.

Nick · Feb 15, 2014

So the extra would be water and electricity for the extra bits of the ground and cleaning of everywhere after the extra fans.

chiefdave · Feb 15, 2014

Grendel said:
As I have always said the vast majority of matchday costs are fixed. Of course they don't include policing, stewards etc. perhaps someone like italiahorse or chiefdave who have constantly maintained the crowd size is a big factor will explain which of these costs are variable.

Just off the top of my head for a crowd of 15K you would open all stands therefore all stands would need cleaning before and after, all facilities powered etc. I highly doubt that for a Leicester U21 game the same standard of statutory compliance is applied and the control room would most likely not be used. Didn't ACL provide car parking facilities and corporate for CCFC as well? Not sure if that came out of rent or matchday.

Of course some costs will be fixed but it could be the case that if CCFC have first priority on all dates during a season they are expected to commit to a higher % of things like pitch maintenance compared to someone who asks to use the ground as a one off on an already prepared pitch.

If you're that concerned about the costs being charged to other people to use the ground maybe you should approach ACL or your council representative and ask for more information.

You can't seriously say you expect the costs for attendance of 15K or more to be the same as a Leicester U21s game with virtually no one in attendance?

I don't even know why this is an issue, it's very very clear to me that match days costs have nothing to do with us moving to Northampton.

chiefdave · Feb 15, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Arsenal are about £1M/season, Everton/Liverpool about £600,000/season, I would guess Coventry Ricoh would have been north of £100,000/season.

Grendel, if, as you claim, the majority of matchday costs are fixed wouldn't you say the amount for CCFC to play at the Ricoh is a bargain looking at those other figures?

Nick · Feb 15, 2014

chiefdave said:
Grendel, if, as you claim, the majority of matchday costs are fixed wouldn't you say the amount for CCFC to play at the Ricoh is a bargain looking at those other figures?

Is that rent or matchday costs? We were being charged both weren't we?

stupot07 · Feb 15, 2014

chiefdave said:
Just off the top of my head for a crowd of 15K you would open all stands therefore all stands would need cleaning before and after, all facilities powered etc. I highly doubt that for a Leicester U21 game the same standard of statutory compliance is applied and the control room would most likely not be used. Didn't ACL provide car parking facilities and corporate for CCFC as well? Not sure if that came out of rent or matchday.

Of course some costs will be fixed but it could be the case that if CCFC have first priority on all dates during a season they are expected to commit to a higher % of things like pitch maintenance compared to someone who asks to use the ground as a one off on an already prepared pitch.

If you're that concerned about the costs being charged to other people to use the ground maybe you should approach ACL or your council representative and ask for more information.

You can't seriously say you expect the costs for attendance of 15K or more to be the same as a Leicester U21s game with virtually no one in attendance?

I don't even know why this is an issue, it's very very clear to me that match days costs have nothing to do with us moving to Northampton.

Surely we'd pay more for evening games and winter games than Saturday games and Autumn/spring games with no floodlights or undersoil heating, and games like the arlesley and burton and other JPT games would be a lower costs as only 1 home stand was open?

And wouldn't having the pitch covered for 3-4 weeks of the summer for concerts be more damaging than an average of 1 football game every week? And I would imagine a team training on it everyday for a week would be more damaging, as the grass wouldn't have time to recover.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

chiefdave · Feb 15, 2014

stupot07 said:
Surely we'd pay more for evening games and winter games than Saturday games and Autumn/spring games with no floodlights or undersoil heating, and games like the arlesley and burton and other JPT games would be a lower costs as only 1 home stand was open?

Maybe it's billed a different itemised amount each game or maybe it's averaged out over the season. We don't know that the costs are the same for every CCFC game do we?

stupot07 said:
And wouldn't having the pitch covered for 3-4 weeks of the summer for concerts be more damaging than an average of 1 football game every week? And I would imagine a team training on it everyday for a week would be more damaging, as the grass wouldn't have time to recover.

Do they keep the same pitch season to season? Maybe the pitch gets taken up at the end of the season and a new one laid after summer use.

Rusty Trombone · Feb 15, 2014

Does the ticket price to watch a game vary depending on the costs of the players that are playing in that particular game? Of course not, the ticket prices reflect what the club think they can charge to optimise their income.

ACL would do the same, they will charge the most they think they could, this has dropped now to the level SISU originally wanted. These questions aimed at finding out various fixed and variable costs are irrelevant, the price ACL will quote will be aimed at maximising their income based on the factors involved. So if Leicester reserves want to play and ACL know if they quote too high they will get nothing, they will quote lower, if CCFC want to play, and they know CCFC will be making tens of thousands pounds, then the price will be higher.

Nothing to do with how long the lights are on, or how many people go for a poo.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Does the ticket price to watch a game vary depending on the costs of the players that are playing in that particular game? Of course not, the ticket prices reflect what the club think they can charge to optimise their income.
.

Yes it does that's why there are category a,b,c and d matches.

Noggin · Feb 15, 2014

Grendel said:
Yes it does that's why there are category a,b,c and d matches.

No it doesn't, different category matches are based on what the club thinks they can charge to optimise their income, The fact there is a good amount of correlation with the costs of the players playing in the game is irrelevant.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2014

Noggin said:
No it doesn't, different category matches are based on what the club thinks they can charge to optimise their income, The fact there is a good amount of correlation with the costs of the players playing in the game is irrelevant.

How much taxpayers money is being used for you to be council trolling at this hour - and at the weekend?

Noggin · Feb 15, 2014

Grendel said:
How much taxpayers money is being used for you to be council trolling at this hour - and at the weekend?

lol you've already had to apologise to me once after you suggested I was an acl plant, or pwkh (can't quite remember what it was you accused me of)

I don't really have any feelings about acl and I have strong negative feelings about the council. In fact the only time in my life a company/organisation etc has ever made me cry was a department from the council.

Rusty Trombone · Feb 16, 2014

Grendel said:
Yes it does that's why there are category a,b,c and d matches.

Are you suggesting that for an 'a' game we'll play our more expensive players, but if you attend a 'd' game you'd be watching sky blue Sam up front? Did we still have category games anyway?

Grendel · Feb 16, 2014

Noggin said:
lol you've already had to apologise to me once after you suggested I was an acl plant, or pwkh (can't quite remember what it was you accused me of)

I don't really have any feelings about acl and I have strong negative feelings about the council. In fact the only time in my life a company/organisation etc has ever made me cry was a department from the council.

No I apologised because I thought you were the artful tax dodger - Rupert Bear

Noggin · Feb 16, 2014

Grendel said:
No I apologised because I thought you were the artful tax dodger - Rupert Bear

ah right yes, thats right, you were accusing me of being an old poster I'd not heard of.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 16, 2014

Q5. What do match day expenses cover? Please define the costs involved?

A5. Match-day costs include, contributions towards the groundsman ( previously employed by the club and now by ACL), the pitch treatments, the equipment to maintain the pitch, a contribution towards match-day utilities, hygiene, maintenance staff, waste disposal, statutory compliance, match-day stadium safety and control room management. The proposal excluded police, West Midlands Ambulance, St Johns Ambulance, medical personnel, ticketing staff, stewards as these remain an obligation of the football club, which has always been the case, and would be a requirement at any other venue. Costs for the remainder of 13/14 season would equate to £8,470 per match and for 14/15 and 15/16 seasons £12,316 per match.

So basically we had to pay over 1 million a year for the use of the Ricoh, then we had to provide our own stewards, policing, ambulance and other various things and then we had to pay 8k a match for the groundsmen, pitch treatments, pitch equipment, match day utilities and a bunch of other stuff. And all the time ACL were taking all the income from the Ricoh and we were left with nothing.

ACL must have been pissing themselves laughing the day we signed that contract

You can rent my car for 5k a day if you want, although you will have to provide your own wheels, engine, fuel and doors though. Oh and you have to pay extra to get access to the car keys, I will also take any money you make whilst you are using it.

Rusty Trombone · Feb 16, 2014

CCFC said:
ACL must have been pissing themselves laughing the day we signed that contract

You can rent my car for 5k a day if you want, although you will have to provide your own wheels, engine, fuel and doors though. Oh and you have to pay extra to get access to the car keys, I will also take any money you make whilst you are using it.

I imagine ACL were very happy with the terms, and it took the club a very long time to decide they weren't happy with them. Do you think the rental terms being offered now are fair? I imagine SISU are pissing themselves laughing now that they get the ground rent free, and they get to keep all the ticket sales.

They could even get to take other money being made if they want to buy the rights back, they might even be able to pay less the £5m the club sold them for.

In your car analogy for the rent you would be getting the engine, wheels and doors, as that would be the arena, not sure about the fuel, maybe that's the pitch, if so that's covered as well. Pretty sure you would get the keys as well, and if you'd sold the rights to some of the income then yes you'd have to hand that over. Other than that I think you're spot on.

skybluetony176 · Feb 16, 2014

From what I can see if sisu paid up the rest of the rent at sixfields and took the rental offer of ACL for the remaining games even with matchday ccosts of £12, 000 a game the club would earn at least an extra £2.5million for the remaining games. Excluding the pie revenue from sixfields but I can't see how this would make up £2.5million on crowds of 2000. I base the ricoh revenue on crowds of 10, 000 but I would argue these could be much bigger given the good football (which I would argue will now disappear at sixfields given the state of the playing surface) and I know plenty of people who would want to go just to show timmy that the 12, 500 he argues would be enough is just another timmy classic miscalculation. No wonder they've turned down the extra income available from the ricoh, timmy needs a new calculator. The one he's currently using clearly doesn't work.

mark82 · Feb 16, 2014

Nick said:
Where? Won't most of that be the same apart from fan rubbish?

Which will be less than Leicester.

Edit: guessing you mean Leicester under 21s at the Ricoh. In which case ignore my comment.

stupot07 · Feb 16, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
From what I can see if sisu paid up the rest of the rent at sixfields and took the rental offer of ACL for the remaining games even with matchday ccosts of £12, 000 a game the club would earn at least an extra £2.5million for the remaining games. Excluding the pie revenue from sixfields but I can't see how this would make up £2.5million on crowds of 2000. I base the ricoh revenue on crowds of 10, 000 but I would argue these could be much bigger given the good football (which I would argue will now disappear at sixfields given the state of the playing surface) and I know plenty of people who would want to go just to show timmy that the 12, 500 he argues would be enough is just another timmy classic miscalculation. No wonder they've turned down the extra income available from the ricoh, timmy needs a new calculator. The one he's currently using clearly doesn't work.

How do you work that out? We only earned £3.7m in ticket sale for an entire season at the Ricoh in the championship with 15k fans and a couple of cup games.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

stupot07 · Feb 16, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Does the ticket price to watch a game vary depending on the costs of the players that are playing in that particular game? Of course not, the ticket prices reflect what the club think they can charge to optimise their income.

ACL would do the same, they will charge the most they think they could, this has dropped now to the level SISU originally wanted. These questions aimed at finding out various fixed and variable costs are irrelevant, the price ACL will quote will be aimed at maximising their income based on the factors involved. So if Leicester reserves want to play and ACL know if they quote too high they will get nothing, they will quote lower, if CCFC want to play, and they know CCFC will be making tens of thousands pounds, then the price will be higher.

Nothing to do with how long the lights are on, or how many people go for a poo.

So basically you're suggesting that ACL will be making a profit on match day costs, by charging the maximum they can, on top of the extortionate rent we were already paying?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 16, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
I imagine ACL were very happy with the terms, and it took the club a very long time to decide they weren't happy with them. Do you think the rental terms being offered now are fair? I imagine SISU are pissing themselves laughing now that they get the ground rent free, and they get to keep all the ticket sales.

They could even get to take other money being made if they want to buy the rights back, they might even be able to pay less the £5m the club sold them for.

In your car analogy for the rent you would be getting the engine, wheels and doors, as that would be the arena, not sure about the fuel, maybe that's the pitch, if so that's covered as well. Pretty sure you would get the keys as well, and if you'd sold the rights to some of the income then yes you'd have to hand that over. Other than that I think you're spot on.

I'd say on the face if it, without knowing all the details then yes it looks a fair deal but I can't really blame the club for not wanting to work with ACL after they knowingly ripped us off for so many years

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 16, 2014

Other than it's the only viable option financially for the club this season CCfc??

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