Manchester synagogue attack (8 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

It was condemned by the Home Secretary and one of the items on the BBC news last night wasn't it?

Starmer definitely spoke about it earlier today.

 

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[Grendel]

The ad hominems are always an encouraging sign I suppose. I am on record as saying that I hold Islamic extremism as a type of far right violence because it stems from an intolerance of a more liberal culture. Quite why I would seek to defend it is beyond me.

What you are doing is the equivalent of portraying all Christians as the same as the evangelical fundamentalists in the American Bible Belt.

The fact you are still trying to make this a right vs left ideology debate is just strange in truth

 

[SBT]

It was condemned by the Home Secretary and one of the items on the BBC news last night wasn't it?

It was - I’m still surprised it took Starmer until today to make any comment on it, and I’ve been surprised by how little coverage it’s received in general.

Not that I expect them to do anything about it, but the fact the Mail’s front page on Friday decided to focus squarely on the knifeman’s religious motivation rather than anything else was clearly inflammatory - if we actually cared about the potential for reprisal attacks then there would be a broader discussion about that, but maybe we don’t.

 

[Grendel]

It was - I’m still surprised it took Starmer until today to make any comment on it, and I’ve been surprised by how little coverage it’s received in general.

Not that I expect them to do anything about it, but the fact the Mail’s front page on Friday decided to focus squarely on the knifeman’s religious motivation rather than anything else was clearly inflammatory - if we actually cared about the potential for reprisal attacks then there would be a broader discussion about that, but maybe we don’t.

The fact he was shot dead as it was feared he had a bomb strapped to him I think is headline news

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The fact you are still trying to make this a right vs left ideology debate is just strange in truth

I’m not trying to make it into anything.

 

[Grendel]

I’m not trying to make it into anything.

Islam then if it extreme or not is by your definition right wing as it opposes any form of libertarian behaviour.

 

[Otis]

I don’t think anyone on here would deny that the demographic of radical Islamists is anything but bad?

Exactly. No-one is saying any different are they.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly. No-one is saying any different are they.

What is the ideological difference between a normal practising Islam loyal to its faith and the radical element?

One practices what the other preaches?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Islam then if it extreme or not is by your definition right wing as it opposes any form of libertarian behaviour.

I mention it in response to a poster accusing me and others of wanting to stand up for fundamentalist Islam when actually I couldn’t be more opposed. The US has a big chunk of people who want their own kind of Christian sharia also.

The Abrahamic religions as a whole if taken at their word in scripture do not particularly preach a message of tolerance, but of course you have a wide spectrum in how seriously and literally it’s interpreted. On that basis yes they are small c conservative.

 

[SBT]

The fact he was shot dead as it was feared he had a bomb strapped to him I think is headline news

Clearly, although I wouldn’t say that was the focus of the Mail’s headline

 

[Grendel]

Clearly, although I wouldn’t say that was the focus of the Mail’s headline

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Well if we are going to play this game - he was?

 

[Grendel]

I mention it in response to a poster accusing me and others of wanting to stand up for fundamentalist Islam when actually I couldn’t be more opposed. The US has a big chunk of people who want their own kind of Christian sharia also.

The Abrahamic religions as a whole if taken at their word in scripture do not particularly preach a message of tolerance, but of course you have a wide spectrum in how seriously and literally it’s interpreted. On that basis yes they are small c conservative.

You still are trying to put a poltical left v right ideology to it yet there is no debate left wing ideology in its ultimate form has killed far more people than anyone

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You still are trying to put a poltical left v right ideology to it yet there is no debate left wing ideology in its ultimate form has killed far more people than anyone

I mean you literally asked me about something being right wing or not but carry on.

 

[Grendel]

I mean you literally asked me about something being right wing or not but carry on.

I do not see it is - I just see it as extremism

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I do not see it is - I just see it as extremism

Sure, but to again point out I was writing in response to a poster who thinks people like me are apologists for this man’s ideology.

 

[skybluetony176]

left wing ideology in its ultimate form has killed far more people than anyone

How have you come to that conclusion?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

How have you come to that conclusion?

I assume he’s referring to the various 20th century communist regimes

 

[Grendel]

Where were your comments after the various neo Nazi terrorists were arrested for planning synagogue attacks?

I have no problem calling this man what he is, an Islamic extremist and a terrorist. But let’s not fool ourselves that they are the only people who have tried to inflict violence on the Jewish community. The most anti Semitic regime of all time was established in Germany, not Saudi Arabia. And with AfD and their Holocaust deniers on the rise, maybe there will be another one on our doorstep.

The Jewish community in the UK have said they have experienced more angst against them in the last 2-3 years and pleaded for the protests last weekend to be postponed. Should they have been as a mark of respect?

I think its most likely Stalin killed the most Jews in that time

 

[Grendel]

How have you come to that conclusion?

The communist regime of Mao alone killed over 70 million Tonester

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The Jewish community in the UK have said they have experienced more angst against them in the last 2-3 years and pleaded for the protests last weekend to be postponed. Should they have been as a mark of respect?

I think its most likely Stalin killed the most Jews in that time

Conflating Judaism with the Israeli state is itself one of the definitions of anti Semitism.

I do think the recent protests were in poor taste given the timing yes, though again are we now saying that a protest against the Israeli genocide in Palestine is itself anti Semitic or a criticism of the Jewish faith?

All 3 of the Neo Nazi terror plots which you avoided discussion of were in the last 2 years to be clear.

 

[SBT]

Well if we are going to play this game - he was?

Obviously he was. The ‘game’ as it were is deciding whether his religion is the single most important aspect of the story

The Mail could have chosen to highlight the heroism of the congregation, the horror of an attack on Yom Kippur, the calls to protect the Jewish population….many other papers did. Clearly the Mail prefers a different approach, I’m just not convinced the push to frame this as a holy war are helpful to anyone other than the terrorists and those who want to retaliate in kind.

 

[SBT]

What is the ideological difference between a normal practising Islam loyal to its faith and the radical element?

One practices what the other preaches?

Have you ever asked a “normal practising Islam” (sic) whether they agree with these kinds of attacks? Or is it almost time to wheel out the Guardian poll from 2016 again?

 

[skybluetony176]

The communist regime of Mao alone killed over 70 million Tonester

How have you come to that figure.

 

[covcity4life]

An attempted attack that could have killed people should be compared to one that was unfortunately successful in achieving it's goal no?

 

[Otis]

An attempted attack that could have killed people should be compared to one that was unfortunately successful in achieving it's goal no?

Well yup, I think people are getting stuck on the word comparable.

The synagogue incident was obviously worse and I don't think anyone has tried to say it wasn't.

But you can compare in terms of both attacks being on religious institutions and with both setting out to kill or injure.

You're not setting fire to a mosque believing all that are inside, will be fine.

The synagogue was a much worse attack. The mosque fire though could have ended up in many deaths too.

I don't think anyone is trying to display a league table and show who's top of the table

Both were extremist attacks. There is some comparison to be made.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

The fact you are still trying to make this a right vs left ideology debate is just strange in truth

He’s doing the opposite it’s the right that are trying to say it’s balanced

 

[Otis]

Can I be the first to say, I am very saddened that there are planned Palestine protests arranged for today, the anniversary of the Hamas attack two years ago.

Am I missing something? Why would you arrange one for the anniversary of such an awful incident?

I don't get it.

Be a good day to play a football match in no man's land.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Can I be the first to say, I am very saddened that there are planned Palestine protests arranged for today, the anniversary of the Hamas attack two years ago.

Am I missing something? Why would you arrange one for the anniversary of such an awful incident?

I don't get it.

Be a good day to play a football match in no man's land.

Was thinking of going on the march on Saturday but decided not to as it’s the Saturday closest to the atrocity. I completely agree with you

 

[Dougin]

Was sickening to see no minutes silence at any of the games this weekend for the victims of Manchester.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Was sickening to see no minutes silence at any of the games this weekend for the victims of Manchester.

Man Utd did

 

[PVA]

Was sickening to see no minutes silence at any of the games this weekend for the victims of Manchester.

 

[chiefdave]

Man Utd did

Did see a Jewish group put out a statement saying this was not enough and the fact it didn’t happen at all games illustrates how institutionally anti semitic football supporters are.

 

[wingy]

EFL PL tut tut,

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Did see a Jewish group put out a statement saying this was not enough and the fact it didn’t happen at all games illustrates how institutionally anti semitic football supporters are.

Good point I’ll have to think about that
I’ve never considered myself anti semetic

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Was thinking of going on the march on Saturday but decided not to as it’s the Saturday closest to the atrocity. I completely agree with you

You even having the thought of possibly going on Saturday shows what type of bloke you are