Astute
Well-Known Member
Spot on Paxman.
Not only do they want it cheap but they don't want any lease or contracts in place. And from what we can gather it can't be done by law.
Leeds United - Elland Road (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter lewys33
- Start date
Spot on Paxman.
Not only do they want it cheap but they don't want any lease or contracts in place. And from what we can gather it can't be done by law.
mark82
Moderator
In which case can't blame them for looking to build a new ground. Just wish it was not 12k capacity and should be within the city boundaries or at least very very close.
I think the only lease they don't want in place is ACL which would be easy to get rid of. Would mean council buying out higgs. Can't see why they would be fussed on other leases.
In terms of value it won't be much more than elland road in terms of value. I agree some facilities are better at the Ricoh and there is the large conference centre. Age doesn't mean a lot - compare with house values rather than car. Capacity is 6000 more at Elland Road and there has been some modernisation. In terms of actual stadium I wouldn't value the Ricoh significantly higher. £25 million at a stretch. If ACL have over invested this wouldn't increase the value but may decrease willingness to sell.
Is that just for a stadium or does it include a hotel and casino and several acres of development land?
mark82
Moderator
Just stadium I believe.
mark82
Moderator
Although have to remember Elland Road is one of the best stadia in the country.
It has conference facilities. Don't think hotels have been built yet but there is enough development land that some large scale developments were planned (hotels, retail, etc). Land wise probably similar but not compared size of plot.
Casino is just a rented unit. The fact it is a casino makes little difference to the price other than the rental space/value.
It has conference facilities. Don't think hotels have been built yet but there is enough development land that some large scale developments were planned (hotels, retail, etc). Land wise probably similar but not compared size of plot.
Casino is just a rented unit. The fact it is a casino makes little difference to the price other than the rental space/value.
justvisiting
New Member
The projected developments were part of Bates' pipedream of building a Leeds version of Chelsea Village, the development he spearheaded at Chelsea that nearly drove the club to bankruptcy. Thankfully it's not been mentioned since the senile old oxygen thief left. Obviously I love Elland Road but I think the Ricoh's a better "product" if you know what I mean. I'd also be very wary about taking the £15million buy-back price as any barometer of what the Ricoh's worth. As someone previously mentioned, it's a value that reflects the rather complicated financial shenanigans of the time as opposed to the actual value of the stadium. If you had to buy a plot of land near the city centre and build a 40,000 capacity stadium it'd cost much more than that. Even if you knock some value off for the fact that parts of it are showing their age, £15million's a very low price and the fact we haven't already bought it back has nothing to do with whether it's best for the club or not.
Skyblueweeman
Well-Known Member
I don't expect them to come back to the Ricoh any time soon...does that mean they might?! I'm confused!
WM
A bit like what may happen through shenanigans here to depress the value and pick It up for a song.
With so many fans ,have you ever considered getting together and Buying It for a stakehold In the Club,Community asset and all that.
Gov't encouragment for this in the select committee report and low rate loans available to achieve .
Have we?
Not that i'm aware re raising funds ,but i think someone has been looking into the community asset side ,where if It became available ,would be allowed to bid for It.
justvisiting
New Member
It's never been seriously on the cards before but this new owner (or prospective new owner, I don't think anyone knows what's going on at the moment) is arriving at precisely the wrong time if he wants to mess about. Fans are now on their guard against having the club owned by crooks and if it turns out he's a wrong 'un then I suspect he'll find life harder than Bates did.
The problem with the fans buying the stadium is that the ownership is via a company registered in a tax haven (as all aspects of Leeds have been since Bates took over) so no one really knows who to speak to or whether they're friendly. Oddly, if the ground is owned by a Bates puppet organisation, he'd be the kind to sell the stadium to the fans just to annoy the new owners. He'd also be just as likely to sell it to the new owners just to annoy the fans so I'm not sure where that leaves us. Funnily enough, the stadium used to be owned by the council during the 80s and we had no problems!
That was some result for you yesterday.
My favourite outcome to our scenario if the Council are being forced to sell our Stadium for peanuts Is for Fan ownership. Possibly gaining a stake in the club ,I'd like to see the FA/FL reject a move to bring the Club back to a ground owned by It's own fans .
My favourite outcome to our scenario if the Council are being forced to sell our Stadium for peanuts Is for Fan ownership. Possibly gaining a stake in the club ,I'd like to see the FA/FL reject a move to bring the Club back to a ground owned by It's own fans .
Astute
Well-Known Member
And this is a point that others as well as myself make on why the Ricoh is safer in the hands of the council that built it than to the hedge fund that is ruining our club. The council have us to answer to. We don't even know what the woman in charge of SISU looks like. They don't care about us fans at all. They just care about their investors.
For me the stadium is key, teams can be re-started, it's not easy to magic up a stadium. Personally, I'd buy into a stadium purchase plan.
No only that, but does anyone think than any other prospective owner of the Ricoh would let us rent for less than the recent offer via the FL?
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
You'd like to hope so Weeman no one expected a move to Northampton but it happened. I still can't see a resolution being possible without a mediator being present..
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shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
The Ricoh is a complicated arrangement, freehold owned by the council, leasehold owned by ACL, tenants include the casino, the hotel plus other catering arrangements where there are long term contracts. SISU don't just want the freehold but they want all the ACL / casino / hotel contracts cancelled, not impossible but very unusual and would be very expensive for CCC to do. It is not a realistic proposition. SISU know this, it allows them to say we have offered to buy the club but the CCC aren't prepared to negotiate.
Also to council these tenancy agreements would be expensive and involve a lot of hard work and would you trust SISU to stick to any agreements. Its complicated.
Also to council these tenancy agreements would be expensive and involve a lot of hard work and would you trust SISU to stick to any agreements. Its complicated.
justvisiting
New Member
Yes, but that still makes him a more attractive proposition than Bates was!
It'll be a good indicator of how truly useful the fit and proper persons test is but there's also talk that the fraud convictions were due to Italy's, erm, complex legal system involving multiple interested parties. Ultimately, whether he's a nice guy who got on the wrong side of the local authorities or a genuine crook, having fraud convictions should probably bar you from owning a footbal club. Being a hedge fund should also present a barrier but that's in a world very different from our own.
lewys33
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is worth more. But surely it is a good start to start around them figures. ACL was valued at £6mill when it was in trouble (albeit they now have a £14 mill loan).
I would offer £15 mill for stadium + freehold (initially) and £1 mill for ACL (on the basis of the loan). So in total £30 odd million?
£30 odd million against £25 mill for a 12,000 seater shit box.
But again ...... lets wait for the JR outcome!
Hobo
Well-Known Member
What is happening at a lot of clubs recently is bonkers with owners, we are not alone.
Cardiff Hull MK Dons Manchester United Liverpool Birmingham and Leeds to name a few.
Not all the same circumstances shows the controlling bodies are loosing a grip cos money does all he talking.
Cardiff Hull MK Dons Manchester United Liverpool Birmingham and Leeds to name a few.
Not all the same circumstances shows the controlling bodies are loosing a grip cos money does all he talking.
As hard as It must be for the Arsenal fans having picked up no trophies for what?? Ten years ,you have to admire Wenger and Arsenal.
If the TV money or Abramovitch /Glazers or that Guy at Liverpool pullled their money It would be the end for their Clubs.
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
Lets not forget the outlay for the Ricoh was some 113m so this imaginary figure everyone is talking about around 15m or so is way off base. I think we are perhaps getting confused with the stadium and the rest of the arena?
Do we actually know if SISU want the stadium complex or do they want the attached hotel/casino/conference rooms/and other venues?
ACL have the lease on the whole thing. 40 years. ACL should in my opinion never have formulated in the first place. If SISU got hold of them they would liquidate them in favour of a freehold from the council. That to me is the problem.
But would SISU be happy with a freehold on the stadium leaving ACL to carry on with it's other interest at the Arena complex as a separate entity? Now if it was just the stadium alone then I see the figures that have been mentioned in valuation rumours of 15 or 20m or so about correct.
It has to be said there must be a suitable end game that satisfies all parties somewhere in all of this. the club needs it's stadium and everyone is better off if we have the one already built in Coventry.
Do we actually know if SISU want the stadium complex or do they want the attached hotel/casino/conference rooms/and other venues?
ACL have the lease on the whole thing. 40 years. ACL should in my opinion never have formulated in the first place. If SISU got hold of them they would liquidate them in favour of a freehold from the council. That to me is the problem.
But would SISU be happy with a freehold on the stadium leaving ACL to carry on with it's other interest at the Arena complex as a separate entity? Now if it was just the stadium alone then I see the figures that have been mentioned in valuation rumours of 15 or 20m or so about correct.
It has to be said there must be a suitable end game that satisfies all parties somewhere in all of this. the club needs it's stadium and everyone is better off if we have the one already built in Coventry.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
SISU want everything not just the stadium...they have said it more than once I believe.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Exactly.....I have a lot of respect for Arsenal, the way they have played for many many years now, plus their husbandry.
A long cry from boring boring Arsenal as a kid.
