Leeds United - Elland Road (1 Viewer)

lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

Turns out CCFC are not the only ones who pay high rent (or were in our case)

Leeds will pay stadium owners - Virgin Islands based "Teak Trading" - £1.4million rent this year (rising 3% each year - i guess to tie in with inflation) unless they use their buy back clause which is currently priced at £15 million (also rises 3% each year).

I wonder if their new - already unpopular owners will buy it back or will they just stop paying the rent in 5/6 years?

mark82 · Feb 1, 2014

You'd think it would make sense to buy it back, although they get all revenue streams in their rent. £15 million is a reasonable price for a 37,000 stadium. Guess that would make the Ricoh a similar value for freehold without ACL. So maybe £10 million for freehold and £5 million to buy ACL out completely?

lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

mark82 said:
You'd think it would make sense to buy it back, although they get all revenue streams in their rent. £15 million is a reasonable price for a 37,000 stadium. Guess that would make the Ricoh a similar value for freehold without ACL. So maybe £10 million for freehold and £5 million to buy ACL out completely?

Festa bought their ground for £17 mill, leeds could buy for £15 mill so its not a bad figure to start with. If they made a reasonable offer around the 15ish mark then I think it would have to be considered.

justvisiting · Feb 1, 2014

Yeah, we pay £2million a year for the stadium and training complex. We also had something in the region of £10million spent on building projects (on a stadium we supposedly don't own) and ridiculous hospitality facilities when Bates was in charge. We've still more or less broken even, albeit by selling all our decent players. Goodness only knows what the new guy's going to be like but our accounts over the past 10 years suggest we've got the income to support all this and still finance a mediocre Championship team. Considering the likely levels of financial misdeeds at Leeds this century, goodness only knows what's responsible for Coventry's supposed £60million debt. It's certainly not rent though.

justvisiting · Feb 1, 2014

Also, allegedly the ground wasn't bought back because the rent was Bates' way of leeching cash out of the club via the owners of the stadium who he, allegedly, had a significant stake in. Allegedly.

Seaside-Skyblue · Feb 1, 2014

I'd have thought the Ricoh would be a similiar price to elland road due to it being newly built and its number of facilities?

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

Things at Leeds are in a bad way.. Although on the subject of Elland Road, £15M does seem a very reasonable price for the Ground, will the new owners come in and buy it? If the opportunity was there, it would be worth it despite the short term investment of £15M.

I am not sure we can compare the Elland Road or The King Power to the Ricoh, the Ricoh is significantly better equipped than either the King Power or Elland Road and the Ricoh is the most recently built Ground out of the three.

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lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
Things at Leeds are in a bad way.. Although on the subject of Elland Road, £15M does seem a very reasonable price for the Ground, will the new owners come in and buy it? If the opportunity was there, it would be worth it despite the short term investment of £15M.

I am not sure we can compare the Elland Road or The King Power to the Ricoh, the Ricoh is significantly better equipped than either the King Power or Elland Road and the Ricoh is the most recently built Ground out of the three.

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True, but its a good starting point I think.

lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

justvisiting said:
Yeah, we pay £2million a year for the stadium and training complex. We also had something in the region of £10million spent on building projects (on a stadium we supposedly don't own) and ridiculous hospitality facilities when Bates was in charge. We've still more or less broken even, albeit by selling all our decent players. Goodness only knows what the new guy's going to be like but our accounts over the past 10 years suggest we've got the income to support all this and still finance a mediocre Championship team. Considering the likely levels of financial misdeeds at Leeds this century, goodness only knows what's responsible for Coventry's supposed £60million debt. It's certainly not rent though.

Yeah the £60 mill doesnt stack up at all. Clear mismanagement of the club ...... or they never paid the debt off in the first place.

justvisiting said:
Also, allegedly the ground wasn't bought back because the rent was Bates' way of leeching cash out of the club via the owners of the stadium who he, allegedly, had a significant stake in. Allegedly.

Thats quite interesting. No doubt people will relate this to CCC's stake in ACL.

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

lewys33 said:
True, but its a good starting point I think.

Absolutely, I'd bump the price of the Ricoh by about £5M-£10M but it's a good starting point. It does make you wonder if Sisu are willing to build a stadium in Exhall for £20M-£30M then why can't they put that money into financing a bid for the Ricoh??

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justvisiting · Feb 1, 2014

lewys33 said:
Yeah the £60 mill doesnt stack up at all. Clear mismanagement of the club ...... or they never paid the debt off in the first place.

Thats quite interesting. No doubt people will relate this to CCC's stake in ACL.

Funnily enough, I think it's also what would happen if SISU owned the Ricoh. No one really has any incentive to ensure the profits of the Ricoh end up with CCFC. The council will want a return on their initial outlay and SISU will want to siphon money out of the club to their investors. The stadium is the logical means of doing this for any party.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
Absolutely, I'd bump the price of the Ricoh by about £5M-£10M but it's a good starting point. It does make you wonder if Sisu are willing to build a stadium in Exhall for £20M-£30M then why can't they put that money into financing a bid for the Ricoh??

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How about lack of:thinking about:

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
How about lack of:thinking about:

I hope they like using Monopoly money in that case to finance the Clubs deals going forward..

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Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
I hope they like using Monopoly money in that case to finance the Clubs deals going forward..

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Funding day to day is a bit different to stumping up the figures you're suggesting

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
Funding day to day is a bit different to stumping up the figures you're suggesting

I agree with that, however if they did build a new stadium they would need to come up with that financing, Fisher has said it's possible, you're not sure and neither am I, but they're going to need to do something.

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DazzleTommyDazzle · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
Absolutely, I'd bump the price of the Ricoh by about £5M-£10M but it's a good starting point. It does make you wonder if Sisu are willing to build a stadium in Exhall for £20M-£30M then why can't they put that money into financing a bid for the Ricoh??

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That does seem to be the obvious question that has never been answered.

SISU claim to be prepared to spend £20m to £30m on a 12,000 seater stadium, but as far as we know have never offered a similar sum for a much larger stadium - that would also bring them much better revenues in the (probable) 5 years while the new stadium was being built.

Odd.

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
That does seem to be the obvious question that has never been answered.

SISU claim to be prepared to spend £20m to £30m on a 12,000 seater stadium, but as far as we know have never offered a similar sum for a much larger stadium - that would also bring them much better revenues in the (probable) 5 years while the new stadium was being built.

Odd.

But is it because BHSB guessed because they don't have it or because they're stubborn or because they simply don't want to negotiate with ACL/CCC?

I don't know which one is more likely.

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lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

justvisiting said:
Funnily enough, I think it's also what would happen if SISU owned the Ricoh. No one really has any incentive to ensure the profits of the Ricoh end up with CCFC. The council will want a return on their initial outlay and SISU will want to siphon money out of the club to their investors. The stadium is the logical means of doing this for any party.

Unfortunately I think you are right.

To make it worse the only way we are going to be back in Coventry realistically is if SISU own the stadium. They are the only ones with the power to change the current situation.

Fans left in catch 22 as per

dongonzalos · Feb 1, 2014

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
That does seem to be the obvious question that has never been answered.

SISU claim to be prepared to spend £20m to £30m on a 12,000 seater stadium, but as far as we know have never offered a similar sum for a much larger stadium - that would also bring them much better revenues in the (probable) 5 years while the new stadium was being built.

Odd.

One plan
JR over the loan and leave stadium empty
Both intended to put ACL out of business in order to pick up the pieces.

Chances of a win 30-70

We have to eat 2 years worth of horse manure till we find out what the real plan b is......

DazzleTommyDazzle · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
But is it because BHSB guessed because they don't have it or because they're stubborn or because they simply don't want to negotiate with ACL/CCC?

I don't know which one is more likely.

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If we are to believe that they are serious business people, would it really be credible that they would turn their backs on a much better deal (better/much larger asset, much better crowds in the intervening 5 (?) years) because they don't want to negotiate with ACL/CCC?

lewys33 · Feb 1, 2014

dongonzalos said:
One plan
JR over the loan and leave stadium empty
Both intended to put ACL out of business in order to pick up the pieces.

Chances of a win 30-70

We have to eat 2 years worth of horse manure till we find out what the real plan b is......

Thats the issue isnt it. THE BIG JR!

Plan A is and always has been:
Win JR. Hope ACL collapse. Buy Ricoh without ACL.

There wont be any offers until the JR is over.

RoboCCFC90 · Feb 1, 2014

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
If we are to believe that they are serious business people, would it really be credible that they would turn their backs on a much better deal (better/much larger asset, much better crowds in the intervening 5 (?) years) because they don't want to negotiate with ACL/CCC?

They ain't business people they're sharks..

I don't expect them to do anything other than the things you expect them not too.

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DazzleTommyDazzle · Feb 1, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
They ain't business people they're sharks..

I don't expect them to do anything other than the things you expect them not too.

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I don't expect them to sell the business for a sensible price - so let's hope you're right

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 1, 2014

The club have just released a statement saying McDermott hasn't been sacked

mark82 · Feb 1, 2014

What is worth more, the stadium itself or the contract to play there owned by ACL. ACL are what make our situation complicated. CCFC could own 100% of the stadium but have no right to play in it. This is why the council need to buy out the Highs share and sell as one. Stadium is worthless without the right to play there.

Astute · Feb 1, 2014

mark82 said:
What is worth more, the stadium itself or the contract to play there owned by ACL. ACL are what make our situation complicated. CCFC could own 100% of the stadium but have no right to play in it. This is why the council need to buy out the Highs share and sell as one. Stadium is worthless without the right to play there.

So what you are saying is that CCC should pay off all contracts and commitments and hopefully pull even with the money they receive from SISU?

Then they could make lots of money for their investors. Keep the Ricoh. No thanks. If they want it they should pay for it. And not use tax payers money to help them to get it.

mark82 · Feb 1, 2014

Astute said:
So what you are saying is that CCC should pay off all contracts and commitments and hopefully pull even with the money they receive from SISU?

Then they could make lots of money for their investors. Keep the Ricoh. No thanks. If they want it they should pay for it. And not use tax payers money to help them to get it.

No. I'm saying ACL being there complicates matters. Leeds can buy their ground back for £15 million. It's an uncomplicated transaction as they lease directly from the ground owners. We rented from someone who had a lease from the ground owners. What I am saying is the whole package i.e. the stadium and ACL should come in somewhere around £15 to £20 million pounds. For a sale to go through it would be easier if ACL were not there so CCFC can just buy from a single seller. So if council bought 50% stake in ACL owned by Higgs they could sell as one for the value stated above. Does that make sense?

Tonylinc · Feb 1, 2014

My view is.......Shitzu......MAKE A BLOODY OFFER!!!!!!!

mark82 · Feb 1, 2014

Tonylinc said:
My view is.......Shitzu......MAKE A BLOODY OFFER!!!!!!!

Constructive. It takes 2 to tango and both sides need to sit down and discuss sensibly in the same room. Not that fucking difficult really, is it?

Tonylinc · Feb 2, 2014

mark82 said:
Constructive. It takes 2 to tango and both sides need to sit down and discuss sensibly in the same room. Not that fucking difficult really, is it?

No, it's not BUT the discussion has to start somewhere and the logical place is an offer from Shitzu.

Astute · Feb 2, 2014

mark82 said:
No. I'm saying ACL being there complicates matters. Leeds can buy their ground back for £15 million. It's an uncomplicated transaction as they lease directly from the ground owners. We rented from someone who had a lease from the ground owners. What I am saying is the whole package i.e. the stadium and ACL should come in somewhere around £15 to £20 million pounds. For a sale to go through it would be easier if ACL were not there so CCFC can just buy from a single seller. So if council bought 50% stake in ACL owned by Higgs they could sell as one for the value stated above. Does that make sense?

Yes Leeds can buy their ground BACK. We have never owned the Ricoh. SISU want much more than the stadium as well. So if just a stadium that is much older than the Ricoh is worth 15m what is everything that SISU want worth? I don't think they should get it a lot cheaper just because they took our club to Northampton.

Tonylinc · Feb 2, 2014

Astute said:
Yes Leeds can buy their ground BACK. We have never owned the Ricoh. SISU want much more than the stadium as well. So if just a stadium that is much older than the Ricoh is worth 15m what is everything that SISU want worth? I don't think they should get it a lot cheaper just because they took our club to Northampton.

Are you listening Timmy.......MAKE A BLOODY OFFER and lets get this thing rolling.

mark82 · Feb 2, 2014

Astute said:
Yes Leeds can buy their ground BACK. We have never owned the Ricoh. SISU want much more than the stadium as well. So if just a stadium that is much older than the Ricoh is worth 15m what is everything that SISU want worth? I don't think they should get it a lot cheaper just because they took our club to Northampton.

That may be the case. Who knows what they actually want. But for the actual arena those figures are a good starting point. If there is land around obviously that may come at an extra cost. Until valuations are completed on both sides who knows.

Paxman II · Feb 2, 2014

Would you pay as much for a car that was way older than the one you had and needed a lot of updating? Sorry but the Ricoh is worth substantially more than ellamd road. There is also a 40 year lease to the landlords who have 20m imvested already. The apples are not like for like.

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Astute · Feb 2, 2014

mark82 said:
That may be the case. Who knows what they actually want. But for the actual arena those figures are a good starting point. If there is land around obviously that may come at an extra cost. Until valuations are completed on both sides who knows.

I thought that they had said they wanted the whole thing including the surrounding land.

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