Israel - Palestinian Conflict (6 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

Oh dear - what a surprise

For Craig Guildford it is hugely embarrassing to have to admit that his officers did use AI - after he had personally told MPs that they did not.

That use of Microsoft Copilot led to information going into the report that referred to a game between West Ham and Maccabi Tel Aviv that had never actually happened.

But that is not the chief constable's biggest problem.

We will have to wait for this afternoon to see in full what His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC), Sir Andy Cooke, says in his letter to the home secretary - but it is not likely to be pretty.

The force is accused of mishandling intelligence in the build up to the decision to ban Maccabi fans from attending the game at Aston Villa in November, and then doubling down when politicians as senior as the prime minister and the home secretary said it was a bad idea.

Behind it all is the suggestion that West Midlands Police were paying too much attention to strong feelings in the Muslim community, and then putting the blame on the Maccabi fans.

I’ve never really got involved in this thread as I’ve not got much to add other than I think that Israel has a right to exist, there should be a separate Palestinian state and Netanyahu has some war crimes to answer. Fuck knows how you resolve all that though so I keep my nose out.

When it spills out into this country and my area I have a bit more of an opinion. I wasn’t best pleased that we appear to have ended up with MPs and councillors getting voted in pretty much on a single issue which has nothing to do with the day to day running of constituencies (or wider country) but we live in a democracy so just got to suck it up I guess

Following on from that though you now get the stuff about west mids police (there’s probably more to come) it’s worse than embarrassing, it stinks. You can’t lie about the reasons to ban Israeli fans, if you cannot protect them from the local community, say, don’t make stuff up and point the blame elsewhere. It didn’t surprise me though, the oversight of the City is a mess, from council through to the police. How the police commissioner (Ex HR lawyer) managed to get another term after overseeing the worst knife crime rates in the country I’ll never know - PCs should never have been party aligned for this reason and I’m glad we’re getting rid of them

Ps semi connected, I don’t think the cancellation of a Jewish Labour MP, albeit a Friends of Israel one, from speaking at a school in Bristol is a great look either.

 

---

[Sky Blue Pete]

I’ve never really got involved in this thread as I’ve not got much to add other than I think that Israel has a right to exist, there should be a separate Palestinian state and Netanyahu has some war crimes to answer. Fuck knows how you resolve all that though so I keep my nose out.

When it spills out into this country and my area I have a bit more of an opinion. I wasn’t best pleased that we appear to have ended up with MPs and councillors getting voted in pretty much on a single issue which has nothing to do with the day to day running of constituencies (or wider country) but we live in a democracy so just got to suck it up I guess

Following on from that though you now get the stuff about west mids police (there’s probably more to come) it’s worse than embarrassing, it stinks. You can’t lie about the reasons to ban Israeli fans, if you cannot protect them from the local community, say, don’t make stuff up and point the blame elsewhere. It didn’t surprise me though, the oversight of the City is a mess, from council through to the police. How the police commissioner (Ex HR lawyer) managed to get another term after overseeing the worst knife crime rates in the country I’ll never know - PCs should never have been party aligned for this reason and I’m glad we’re getting rid of them

Ps semi connected, I don’t think the cancellation of a Jewish Labour MP, albeit a Friends of Israel one, from speaking at a school in Bristol is a great look either.

Agree with pretty much all of that

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Police chief admits misleading MPs after AI used in justification for banning Maccabi Tel Aviv fans

An intelligence report referred to a football game that never happened - Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood will make a statement later today.

www.bbc.co.uk

Another fine mess for our boys in blue. Surely the chief constable has to go?

It goes deeper than that
I am someone that trusts authority too much as I feel anarchy is worth a bit of authoritarian action
But I must say my lifelong experience of police interaction has been that there are way too many people working that lack integrity,
People that are used to manipulation and coercion of the public and generally bring the police service into disrepute. This is before dealing with institutional racism or sexism or misogyny or criminal activity
Now the police force is representative of its communities but I think the organisation and maybe all organisations always believe the end justifies the means and morals and integrity fly out the window

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Oh dear - what a surprise

For Craig Guildford it is hugely embarrassing to have to admit that his officers did use AI - after he had personally told MPs that they did not.

That use of Microsoft Copilot led to information going into the report that referred to a game between West Ham and Maccabi Tel Aviv that had never actually happened.

But that is not the chief constable's biggest problem.

We will have to wait for this afternoon to see in full what His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC), Sir Andy Cooke, says in his letter to the home secretary - but it is not likely to be pretty.

The force is accused of mishandling intelligence in the build up to the decision to ban Maccabi fans from attending the game at Aston Villa in November, and then doubling down when politicians as senior as the prime minister and the home secretary said it was a bad idea.

Behind it all is the suggestion that West Midlands Police were paying too much attention to strong feelings in the Muslim community, and then putting the blame on the Maccabi fans.

Yep he’s got to go
You can’t lie and hope you won’t get found out and then apologise
It’s pathetic we have those who uphold our governance and law be so lacking in common decency and truth

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I’ve never really got involved in this thread as I’ve not got much to add other than I think that Israel has a right to exist, there should be a separate Palestinian state and Netanyahu has some war crimes to answer. Fuck knows how you resolve all that though so I keep my nose out.

When it spills out into this country and my area I have a bit more of an opinion. I wasn’t best pleased that we appear to have ended up with MPs and councillors getting voted in pretty much on a single issue which has nothing to do with the day to day running of constituencies (or wider country) but we live in a democracy so just got to suck it up I guess

Following on from that though you now get the stuff about west mids police (there’s probably more to come) it’s worse than embarrassing, it stinks. You can’t lie about the reasons to ban Israeli fans, if you cannot protect them from the local community, say, don’t make stuff up and point the blame elsewhere. It didn’t surprise me though, the oversight of the City is a mess, from council through to the police. How the police commissioner (Ex HR lawyer) managed to get another term after overseeing the worst knife crime rates in the country I’ll never know - PCs should never have been party aligned for this reason and I’m glad we’re getting rid of them

Ps semi connected, I don’t think the cancellation of a Jewish Labour MP, albeit a Friends of Israel one, from speaking at a school in Bristol is a great look either.

Sectarianism is creeping into the UK and Europe has a real problem with radical Islam that’s growing. Middle East countries have been warning about this for decades now.

Rory Stewart berated Dominic Cummings for saying that UAE were considering removing UK unis from their international scholarship scheme. He called it ‘bullshit’ and Cummings turned out to be right and publicly apologised for it. Rory Stewart represents a cosy and naive view of the world that is shared by much of the UK establishment.

You’ll see further back in this thread (or another one) talking about the Israeli football ban and two things are apparent:
1) the police and pro-Palestine commentators lied about the hooliganism of Israeli football fans
2) it was local Muslim communities that were threatening to arm themselves

It adds fuel to fire that the UK police is ‘two-tier’ and who can blame them? This whole episode shows clear favouritism to one community over another and fabricated evidence in the process.

It’s a farce and a disgrace.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Sectarianism is creeping into the UK and Europe has a real problem with radical Islam that’s growing. Middle East countries have been warning about this for decades now.

Rory Stewart berated Dominic Cummings for saying that UAE were considering removing UK unis from their international scholarship scheme. He called it ‘bullshit’ and Cummings turned out to be right and publicly apologised for it. Rory Stewart represents a cosy and naive view of the world that is shared by much of the UK establishment.

You’ll see further back in this thread (or another one) talking about the Israeli football ban and two things are apparent:
1) the police and pro-Palestine commentators lied about the hooliganism of Israeli football fans
2) it was local Muslim communities that were threatening to arm themselves

It adds fuel to fire that the UK police is ‘two-tier’ and who can blame them? This whole episode shows clear favouritism to one community over another and fabricated evidence in the process.

It’s a farce and a disgrace.

It’s not two tier it’s the old Hanlons razor

Mistakes, ignorance and incompetence rather than malice

 

[wingy]

It’s not two tier it’s the old Hanlons razor

Mistakes, ignorance and incompetence rather than malice

Well I'm just confused and I don't where the labour component of that element goes now or in future?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It’s not two tier it’s the old Hanlons razor

Mistakes, ignorance and incompetence rather than malice

I tend to buy into the idea that most things like this are honest mistakes or incompetence. No, I think the police are protecting a certain narrative they favour. This explains the extent they’ve covered this up and twisted the narrative to fit what they want.

If you admit you have to ban Israeli football fans because you can’t protect them from local Muslims, it destroys the narrative of multiculturalism being successful. Hence you make up a bogeyman of Israeli hooliganism. This was obviously a cover up from Day 1 because we’ve hosted teams with much worse reputations for hooliganism. This ban was motivated to avoid sectarian violence on UK streets driven by the local population. Need more evidence? See the disorder at the ground without the presence of Israeli football fans.

It’s the same way the police, social services and local councils wanted nothing to do with going after rape gangs. To not ‘inflame community tensions’.

We’re consistently told ‘diversity is our strength’ and dark episodes like this perhaps casts a shadow on that narrative.

 

[Grendel]

What bullshit is this I see here

Birmingham MP defends Chief Constable against 'witch hunt' over Israeli fan ban

Ayoub Khan, MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, says sacking of police chief would send 'chilling message' to other forces

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[wingy]

No, I think the police are protecting a certain narrative.

If you admit you have to ban Israeli football fans because you can’t protect them from local Muslims, it destroys the narrative of multiculturalism being successful.

It’s the same way the police, social services and local councils wanted nothing to do with going after rape gangs. To not ‘inflame community tensions’.

We’re consistently told ‘diversity is our strength’ and dark episodes like this perhaps casts a shadow on that narrative.

And I think the politicians are

 

[Grendel]

I assume there are two Ayoub Khans - I mean as the MP is against stirring up hatred and division I guess this is someone else

Birmingham Lib Dem councillor offered anti-semitism training

Ayoub Khan apologises on X for offence caused by his posts about the Middle Eastern conflict.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What bullshit is this I see here

Birmingham MP defends Chief Constable against 'witch hunt' over Israeli fan ban

Ayoub Khan, MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, says sacking of police chief would send 'chilling message' to other forces

www.birminghammail.co.uk

Yep, these pro-Gaza independent MPs are a disgrace. Adnan Hussain was implicitly defending the Iranian regime on X recently too.

Bad faith operators and naturally, Corbyn jumps into bed with them.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yep, these pro-Gaza independent MPs are a disgrace. Adnan Hussain was implicitly defending the Iranian regime on X recently too.

Bad faith operators and naturally, Corbyn jumps into bed with them.

Any of the 'friends of Israel' aligned to any party are equally bad faith actors. Unfortunately, that represents a very significant proportion of parliament.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

No, I think the police are protecting a certain narrative.

If you admit you have to ban Israeli football fans because you can’t protect them from local Muslims, it destroys the narrative of multiculturalism being successful.

It’s the same way the police, social services and local councils wanted nothing to do with going after rape gangs. To not ‘inflame community tensions’.

We’re consistently told ‘diversity is our strength’ and dark episodes like this perhaps casts a shadow on that narrative.

Yeah, they knew what they were doing. You now have MPs like Ayoub Khan (I note as I was typing this other posts have called him out) jumping in and saying it is a 'witch hunt'. The same MP who's greatest hits include 'grooming gangs are a false right-wing narrative'. Their priority is, and will always be, Islam. There is now a pressure on various authorities to bend over for them, which is what happened (for yet another occasion), and this time they got found out. A big part of this was actually down to the Dutch police who blew the whistle.

All of this on principle is a total mess, sadly.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Any of the 'friends of Israel' aligned to any party are equally bad faith actors. Unfortunately, that represents a very significant proportion of parliament.

I’m certainly less worried about a ‘Friends of Israel’ caucus than I am about a ‘Friends of Iran’ caucus.

Particularly at a time the bodies are piling up in Tehran as people protest their government.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m certainly less worried about a ‘Friends of Israel’ caucus than I am about a ‘Friends of Iran’ caucus.

Particularly at a time the bodies are piling up in Tehran as people protest their government.

Israel murder foreign civilians, Iran murder their own. Both regimes are criminals but only one will likely face punishment.

 

[Grendel]

I mean is was nothing to do with them being from Israel - purely the police safety was threatened as " one of our own" MP said

Maccabi Tel Aviv’s racist fan hooliganism cannot be separated from Israeli militarism. Many of these fans—[Interruption.] Many of these fans are active or former soldiers who have taken part in Israel’s genocide in Gaza. They should be investigated for war crimes the moment they set foot on British soil, not welcomed into our stadiums. Let us be clear: this Labour Government are no innocent bystander. They have armed Israel’s genocide, they have provided diplomatic cover and they have shamefully denied that genocide is even taking place. So I ask the Minister: is there anything this Labour Government will not do to defend the genocidal apartheid state of Israel?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I mean is was nothing to do with them being from Israel - purely the police safety was threatened as " one of our own" MP said

Maccabi Tel Aviv’s racist fan hooliganism cannot be separated from Israeli militarism. Many of these fans—[Interruption.] Many of these fans are active or former soldiers who have taken part in Israel’s genocide in Gaza. They should be investigated for war crimes the moment they set foot on British soil, not welcomed into our stadiums. Let us be clear: this Labour Government are no innocent bystander. They have armed Israel’s genocide, they have provided diplomatic cover and they have shamefully denied that genocide is even taking place. So I ask the Minister: is there anything this Labour Government will not do to defend the genocidal apartheid state of Israel?

Who asked that and when?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Particularly at a time the bodies are piling up in Tehran as people protest their government.

Another thing that is causing a bit of a wobble with some, and not for the right reasons.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Another thing that is causing a bit of a wobble with some, and not for the right reasons.

What’s the wobble?

 

[Grendel]

Who asked that and when?

Clearly that racist moron Sultana in the commons debate. She is now saying no sanctions should be applied to Iran and its an example of US imperialism and we should never as a country impose sanctions. There should be a petition to boot her out of Coventry.. She is deranged,,

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Clearly that racist moron Sultana in the commons debate. She is now saying no sanctions should be applied to Iran and it’s an example of US imperialism and we should never as a country impose sanctions. There should be a petition to boot her out of Coventry.. She is deranged,,

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What’s the wobble?

See Grendel's comment. I think you've already replied to it.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

See Grendel's comment. I think you've already replied to it.

Yep ta
I don’t disagree that we shouldn’t involve ourselves in regime change if we can’t guarantee a better outcome but sanctions and calling out Iran is as necessary as calling out Israel has been

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I mean is was nothing to do with them being from Israel - purely the police safety was threatened as " one of our own" MP said

Maccabi Tel Aviv’s racist fan hooliganism cannot be separated from Israeli militarism. Many of these fans—[Interruption.] Many of these fans are active or former soldiers who have taken part in Israel’s genocide in Gaza. They should be investigated for war crimes the moment they set foot on British soil, not welcomed into our stadiums. Let us be clear: this Labour Government are no innocent bystander. They have armed Israel’s genocide, they have provided diplomatic cover and they have shamefully denied that genocide is even taking place. So I ask the Minister: is there anything this Labour Government will not do to defend the genocidal apartheid state of Israel?

She has a point about what Israel have done and our government's role (albeit minor) in facilitating it.

 

[Grendel]

She has a point about what Israel have done and our government's role (albeit minor) in facilitating it.

She stated sanctions should not be applied to Iran

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

She stated sanctions should not be applied to Iran

Don't agree with her there.

Out of interest, why is Israel allowed to murder tens of thousands but not Iran?

 

[Grendel]

Don't agree with her there.

Out of interest, why is Israel allowed to murder tens of thousands but not Iran?

You are starting to sound like the Birmingham Mp - I’d be very careful here

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Don't agree with her there.

Out of interest, why is Israel allowed to murder tens of thousands but not Iran?

They’re not

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You are starting to sound like the Birmingham Mp - I’d be very careful here

It's a fair question I think.

 

[Grendel]

It's a fair question I think.

Thety are two totally separate things. You call Trump a fascist pig every day yet strangely seem reticent to criticise the Islam country called Iran

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thety are two totally separate things. You call Trump a fascist pig every day yet strangely seem reticent to criticise the Islam country called Iran

I literally have done on this and other threads, one of my best friends has family out there and he's got no idea if they're alive or not.

 

[wingy]

Any of the 'friends of Israel' aligned to any party are equally bad faith actors. Unfortunately, that represents a very significant proportion of parliament.

Zionists I believe was the Cry from Rachel the other day, she does feel emboldened.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I’m certainly less worried about a ‘Friends of Israel’ caucus than I am about a ‘Friends of Iran’ caucus.

Particularly at a time the bodies are piling up in Tehran as people protest their government.

Can you show me the list of MPs who are provided paid trips to Iran please?