Is the Premier League Out of reach (7 Viewers)

Grendel said:

Well these figures prove him right and prove we need our own stadium or we are without hope of ever attracting new owners.

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Havent Wasps overpaid for a useless failing business so all we have to do is wait for them to go bankrupt and get the stadium for a bargain price?

will am i said:

I thought delivering a new stadium was his only job. if he isnt up to it why is he still hanging around and being paid?

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Now now be fair. He has found the phone number for a council now. Yes 118 would have been cheaper and quicker but lets not make out that he isn't making progress

will am i said:

Havent Wasps overpaid for a useless failing business so all we have to do is wait for them to go bankrupt and get the stadium for a bargain price?

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Wasps tend to die in the winter months so we won't have to wait too long.

stupot07 said:

They had enough to lose £40m+ in 3 years.

They lost £15m just getting out of league one.

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And now they've got it all back again with interest. Not the point I know but they've clearly gambled a lot less than other teams but most importantly they had the right men steering the ship both on the green stuff and behind the scenes. We have TM so we're half way there.

skybluetony176 said:

And now they've got it all back again with interest. Not the point I know but they've clearly gambled a lot less than other teams but most importantly they had the right men steering the ship both on the green stuff and behind the scenes. We have TM so we're half way there.

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We have to get out of this league first, and SISU won't gamble, and gambles even with good managers don't always come off, in fact most don't come off (look at Forest). Fair play to Bournemouth it worked for them, but we have seen first hand what over spending does to a club.


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skybluetony176 said:

I'd take it but if we came straight back down I wouldn't be that bothered. Assuming that we haven't gambled everything to get there and need at least X amount of seasons in it to avoid going tits up, again.

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Isn't that a bad of a poor reflection on football. The fact that the main driver for teams reaching the PL isn't described in prestige terms but always in economic ones.

SISU are a symptom of this problem.

Grendel said:

Well these figures prove him right and prove we need our own stadium or we are without hope of ever attracting new owners.

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That's the catch 22. These owners have supplied zero evidence that they either have the desire or capabilities to deliver a stadium. We need new owners just to get that done, forget about the premier league.

fernandopartridge said:

Isn't that a bad of a poor reflection on football. The fact that the main driver for teams reaching the PL isn't described in prestige terms but always in economic ones.

SISU are a symptom of this problem.

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Absolutely.

Not interested in the Premier League while we are in Lge 1. You don't get value for money, too many over paid average players.

I actually like our current business model. It doesnt make things easy but it make us more of a club than some billionaires fad. Wouldn't want to be a Bournemouth fan when the tide goes out.

Sorry am I missing something? The initial question is about making it back to the Premiership and the whole thread is moaning again about money.

Money is only a percentage of reaching the 'promised land', the other is on the pitch of play and I would love to get back there one day.

Grendel said:

There was a report last night on news night which gave a stark message to clubs outside the premier league.

Effectively it was saying the championship is now effectively ran by clubs in the same way the premiere league was when we were in it.

When we were there the premier league was full of clubs, like us, overspending and borrowing huge sums of money to remain there. Now the league is a harem of profit for foreign investors. All but one club made a profit last year and the average profit was £30 million.

The most incredible stat was that wages were 58% of turnover.

By contrast the desperation to join this party is having a catastrophic effect in the championship. Average losses are at £10 million a club and average wages to turnover is 105%.

We know that when we were last in the championship we were in the top 10 crowds but due to our "unique" arrangement were in the bottom 6 for revenue.

I can see no real hope with these arrangements how the club can return - even with promotion and gates of 15-20,000 we'd have one of the lowest turnovers and no real capacity to move forward.

It could be we will never return.

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Its a good point you make here, the paradox of income vs success and the gamble to achieve " the so called promised land " if you look at the main protagonist teams they have wasted literally billions for what ? The for what is to remain a main protagonist and hopefully scoop up mega advertising deals, Sky TV and all the gambling companies. The others , well they try to compete but essentially it's a closed shop. I expect Bournemouth to do a Gretna and disappear up there own arse in a couple of years along with a few others.

Will we we ever make it back in all reality , not without sound foundations and a massive slice of luck in whatever form its served.

We could eventually get back to premier league but not in short term. We have a potentially big fan base but don't own any he stadium. We have owners that have not understood the demands of a football club and have underspent or not spent wisely. I get the feeling this has changed a bit but the owner will not invest big. So I don't think we will get back to premier league under the current regime. I'm not even sure we want the premiership in its current inflated unsustainable state. Pull the revenues there and half would go bust. So own a stadium, new committed owners and we have a chance. But at the moment let's look to top half league one, a tilt at promotion to championship and then further consolidation. I think that is possible within next few years.


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We need to take one step at a time and not look too far ahead.
Opportunities will present themselves once we raise our profile.
It may take years but we just need to improve year on year.
First step is get out this division.

Grendel said:

Effectively it was saying the championship is now effectively ran by clubs in the same way the premiere league was when we were in it.

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Out of curiosity, how is it run by the clubs?

Grendel said:

The prediction is it will get worse. Microsoft and Apple are looking at the next bidding process. The next deal is predicted to be even larger - it's virtually a monopoly now - we would have about as much chance of success as Rotherham.

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More evidence the " click " are trying to steer our minds to supporting the monopoly in the hype. In the fact of trying to relegate all others as no more than side show teams with aspirations to enter the big time " like the muppets that go on say X factor hoping of notoriety.

The " big clubs " whatever that means will do their upmost to patronise the muppets that support them to retain their status, in whatever form.

While sisu are in charge and we are playing in Wasps' stadium we have no chance.

Grendel said:

No one , even Italia, can argue against that. We need a new ground and we need owners to actually commit to build one.

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We are back on the Wasps owned vs Sisu owned stadium argument again.
Success/income in the rented Wasps 33K arena will outweigh that of the 18K? rented out of town Sisu arena even with all the incomes.
We need to see plans and location before we can decide what the best model is for getting to the PL.
Still sticking with Wasps/Sisu working together towards a win win situation for both until then.

We need 1 of 2 things to get to the premier league:

1. Mega rich owners
Or
2. A better business plan with more revenue streams. To do this would need not only a stadium but surrounding land from which you could also take revenue. Something along these lines:-
http://m.packers.com/news/article/p...district-bbe57f41-1de4-4c82-a4fb-a9298314bb26

Yes it probably is under the current owners as they seem to be playing to a different set of rules on finance than most others, although it seems to be a fairly miserable place when you get there imagine what two promotions would be like as I have never seen one.

Personally I think without someone willing to put in extra money, probably £10m pa (that they are prepared to lose) over several seasons I do not see how CCFC competes at the top of the Championship with or without a new ground.

The argument seems to be owning their own ground will make the difference. Well cold hard facts say it hasn't for a lot of clubs in the Championship who do own theirs. Spending 105% of turnover on player wages (aside from being business madness) means there is nothing left to pay for anything else (like staff wages, insurance, grounds maintenance, league fees, advertising, training ground, academy, loan interest etc.) Making annual losses £10m means someone has to dig deep in to their wealth to support a club on the off chance that club might be 1 of 3 to benefit from promotion to the "promised land". That's without factoring in the parachute payments of a number of clubs that have been there and failed but have huge income given to them to try again. The odds are getting worse each year as a small number of clubs bounce between Premiership and Championship.

So each year the club over spends by £10m and the hole just gets deeper. In our case for example 3 years of trying will equate to over £100m negative balance sheet as of today.

Yes there are exceptions - Bournemouth have turned near disaster into Premiership success - but not without someone being prepared to spend a large amount of extra money above the turnover those clubs have. We have neither the turnover nor anyone willing to risk an extra 20 or 30 million+ on the risky Premiership gamble. We have no assets, even in the squad at this point, of any real worth, Otium has been saddled with massive debt already, the club will not own any "new ground" or wont access enough of the income streams to make a difference if they stay at the Ricoh. That's the reality

Sorry to be so negative but the best I see in the future is scraping by in the lower reaches of the Championship, but more likely bouncing between the 2nd & 3rd divisions. In some senses the Championship fuelled by the parachute payments has become Premiership mark 2.

The Reality is we can fantasise but our attainable level does not seem to be Premiership. In which case personally I am lowering my expectations and simply enjoying a team winning more than losing for a change. We might get tremendously lucky and we make it but it is a very small chance

Also lets be clear the management of Otium have done deals to hive off income to third parties. Now they may have sold the rights but what that hive off does do is to decrease the turnover of Otium. It might be more profitable but unlikely to be significantly so. What it actually does is to cut cost and risk. So no cost of running a retail outlet or online shop but no control over it either - in addition it means less management cost too so fewer people employed or overheads in other areas not just the shop. There is no stock holding cost, no monthly rent.

Say shop sales were £400k net of direct cost but we now get 15% commission (£60K) the effect on the SCMP is to drop it by over £200k. Were we not told that TURNOVER/REVENUE was vital to the team which is why they cant stay at the Ricoh and the driving force for any new ground? Seems that currently it isn't, that cost cutting and breakeven is. Its a contradiction isn't it?

I think all teams should be self sufficient, sadly there is no proper control in place to ensure that. It is not a level playing field. Premiership clubs seem to have achieved it on the back of huge sponsorship deals but Championship clubs are actually encouraged to gamble, to over spend to dig a deeper hole which actually blocks the path for teams lower down still

http://www.football-league.co.uk/news/article/2015/football-league-ffp-guidance-2632728.aspx
does this mean nothing then?

it still talks about maximum permitted losses though doesn't it ....... losses mean turnover is not enough to cover costs, that extra must be found from owners or debt to finance operations

not checked but what are the new rules that are coming in next season

Next season will see the introduction of a new set of ‘Profitability and Sustainability’ regulations that will deliver a consistent approach to Financial Fair Play for those clubs that move between the two divisions through promotion and relegation.

Sounds good but what does it actually say? Have no faith in FL regulations - they are usually at the discretion of the FL board

found this

http://www.football-league.co.uk/ne...hip-financial-fair-play-rules-rg-2066799.aspx

At an EGM at Derby County, Championship clubs have agreed a new set of ‘Profitability and Sustainability’ Regulations that will bring the division’s approach to Financial Fair Play into line with that used by the Premier League.

From the beginning of the 2016/17 season, Championship clubs will have their financial performance continuously monitored over a three season timeframe and will be permitted to lose up to £15m during that period without having to be prescriptive over how that loss will be funded. In addition, they will be permitted to lose more than £15m, but not more than an aggregate of £39m (compared to an equivalent figure of £105m in the Premier League) but will be subject to additional regulation when doing so. This will include providing evidence of Secure Owner Funding and Future Financial Information for the two seasons ahead.

A club that moves between the Premier League and Championship will be assessed in accordance with the average allowance that is permitted in the relevant division (for example, a club that had played two seasons in the Championship and one in the Premier League would have a maximum permitted loss of £61m - consisting of one season at £35m and two at £13m).

Clubs also agreed transitional arrangements for the period leading up the introduction of the new regulations in 2016. These can be summarised as follows:
•The existing Championship FFP framework will remain in place for the 2014/15 and 2015/16 seasons.
•Any sanctions for accounts relating to the 2013/14 season will continue to take effect as intended (and in accordance with the amounts specified at the time).
•The maximum deviation under the regulations will remain at £6m for 2014/15 and will increase to £13m in 2015/16, in line with the maximum loss (£39m over 3 seasons) permitted under the new rules.
Following the Championship’s decision, The Board of The Football League has been given a mandate by its clubs to complete a new financial solidarity arrangement with the Premier League in accordance with that currently under discussion between the two leagues.
Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/ne...lay-rules-rg-2066799.aspx#BfxrQdoHmOkTxeJO.99


Still talks about losses and substantial ones at that. How is that sustainable? Given what we know at CCFC how could we compete on that? Seems barmy to me to keep actively encouraging losses

Also found this

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jun/02/parachute-payments-clubs-relegated-premier-league

So a premiership team relegated could end up with £24m parachute payment and still create £15m in losses in the year it seems in their attempt to get back in to the promised land. That's £39,000,000 available even ignoring other revenues and player sales

Currently CCFC get £360,000 in solidarity payments in L1 and last accounts 31/05/14 showed Turnover £3.4m. That's a huge gap to bridge even with owning its own "new stadium"

Grendel said:

No just £50 million and a bankrolling billionaire as well

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We went through this before. The vast majority of what they spent was after gaining promotion. But I suppose you forgot.

I'll soon be £100 million in TV money alone in the Prem. How many years of L1 will that equate to, our own stadium income or not?

I would love to go up but i truth no we have no chance unless by pure chance (or you could call it design) we had the right set of players hitting form in the championship at the same time.

The championship is spending more and more each year in a desperate attempt to reach the PL which is now causing a two tiered league of wealth. We cannot compete with a Bristol City spending £10M on a player no matter who was in charge of our club (SISU or not). So many clubs have spent big to either keep in the league or push i.e. Cardiff, Wigan, leeds in the past etc and have come stuck as a result, its a massive gamble (but can pay off also!)

Unless you can do a Watford and be creative in the loan market then to answer the OP, yes it is out of reach.

Grendel said:

There was a report last night on news night which gave a stark message to clubs outside the premier league.

Effectively it was saying the championship is now effectively ran by clubs in the same way the premiere league was when we were in it.

When we were there the premier league was full of clubs, like us, overspending and borrowing huge sums of money to remain there. Now the league is a harem of profit for foreign investors. All but one club made a profit last year and the average profit was £30 million.

The most incredible stat was that wages were 58% of turnover.

By contrast the desperation to join this party is having a catastrophic effect in the championship. Average losses are at £10 million a club and average wages to turnover is 105%.

We know that when we were last in the championship we were in the top 10 crowds but due to our "unique" arrangement were in the bottom 6 for revenue.

I can see no real hope with these arrangements how the club can return - even with promotion and gates of 15-20,000 we'd have one of the lowest turnovers and no real capacity to move forward.

It could be we will never return.

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The only chance we might have had was a billionaire picking us up as a plaything but any chance of that went down the tubes when our delightful council sold the Ricoh to a London Rugby club.

Absolutely out of our reach.

I will wait to be shot down and classed as a doom and gloom merchant but you do need investment, yes getting the right players for that investment is key (QPR) but it does stem from investment so if this fantastic model of self sustainability is here to stay then I cannot see us getting to the Championship let alone the Premier League.

fernandopartridge said:

I'll be in the minority but I have no desire to return to the Premier League in its current guise.

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Add me to that minority