Is Stuart Linnell correct? (1 Viewer)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

No, it's not my bid for rhetorical question of 2012.

I was almost moved to call Mr Linnell after Saturday's game and the resultant phone-in after his assertion that SISU 'were the only option' we had back in 2007.

Now, I think they were the only option ahead of administration. Well, apart of Akli Davis who apparently claimed: "After looking through the finances and seeing the numbers, the club is falling apart. The debt does not tally. Good luck to whoever takes them on." Retrospectively wise.

Now, Linnell shoots anyone down who criticises SISU, or at least did last week, stating that without their take-over, we'd cease to exist. Surely he's wrong?

Looking at clubs who have entered administration of a similar size to us, and I think the list runs - Middlesbrough, Crystal Palace, QPR, Bradford, Leicester, Ipswich, Wimbledon, Derby, Leeds (bigger, I acknowledge), Pompey or Southampton - how many have ceased to exist?

Okay, Bradford are worse-off, as are Wimbledon - but that's a function of their Milton Keynes folly as much as anything; and Pompey are, well... Pompey. But what about the others? Surely they've come through the process a stronger entity, not a non-entity as our Stuart seems to categorically state?

This not aimed at being an analysis of our fortunes under SISU - honest - but more an analysis of others who have entered administration and seemingly 'bounced back' and not withered as is claimed

 

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[kingharvest]

As our situation is directly related to stadium ownership, how many clubs in the UK don't own their ground?

Its well known that a lot of the financial difficulties in Italy are as a result of most grounds being owned by local councils. Are we alone in that respect? Because the fact we don't is a reason why we might have gone bust, as opposed to those other clubs you mention. Those clubs are an attractive proposition because they have revenue potential. Our's is capped to a certain extent which would directly influence any potential investment. The initial outlay to access those revenue streams would put off alot of people.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Never believed the artificial deadline of Elliott's " Ticking Clock" was anything more than a device to make everybody feel grateful that we'd been saved and that no other options were possible.

Deal cut between Ranson/Robinson and Sisu well before any "deadlines" had to be met I suspect.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I suggest the next one to be on the receiving end of this misguided notion therefore brings this thread to his attention, and asks him to join in with his wisdom.

If on the radio, and the invitation be addressed toward 'beardy', then all the better

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

Never believed the artificial deadline of Elliott's " Ticking Clock" was anything more than a device to make everybody feel grateful that we'd been saved and that no other options were possible.

Deal cut between Ranson/Robinson and Sisu well before any "deadlines" had to be met I suspect.

Do you know, I am not so sure about that given the way Sisu have been shown to act since that day. Also the comment about them finding hidden debts....

of course that could also be a load of bollocks....

However like MMM says surely there was (still is) another option.

You can even point to the fact that Pompey who are in Admin for the eleventy billionth time are still above us in the table!

 

[sw88]

I don't believe anything he says. I also don't believe we were close to going out of business. Admin would have been the worse case scenario IMO.

At what point were that 'Sports Capital' group were sniffing around? I thought they were also an option, but may have just been before SISU came along

 

[theprince]

Geoffrey Robinson has said on radio that there was another option at the time, an option he prefered, which i know could hane been a selfish point of view. So answering the original question, yes Linnell is wrong to say SISU were the only gig in town. Doesn't mean Robinson's ideal choice would have been better. It really needs someone to phone in and ask Stuart Linnell to contact Mr Robinson and ask the question.

 

[Sick Boy]

Geoffrey Robinson has said on radio that there was another option at the time, an option he prefered, which i know could hane been a selfish point of view.

Wasn't that the bid that Robinson put together to takeover the club? I am pretty certain he also but a group together?

 

[theprince]

Think it was, but would it have been worse than sisu ? I seem to remember GR saying he wasn't part of the other party but had introduced them to the club I know for certain Robinson was dead against sisu getting their hands on the club.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Think it was, but would it have been worse than sisu ? I seem to remember GR saying he wasn't part of the other party but had introduced them to the club I know for certain Robinson was dead against sisu getting their hands on the club.

Remember reports of him quaffing copious amounts of Champagne in celebration at the time.

Which means he thought he was getting a good deal.

Don't think that any deal could have been done without the input and permission of Robinson.

 

[coundonskyblue]

As our situation is directly related to stadium ownership, how many clubs in the UK don't own their ground?

Not sure about now, but at the time of their admin these teams didnt own their ground:

Crystal Palace, Leicester, Ipswich, Wimbledon, Leeds.

Along with the smaller clubs of:

Rotherham, Stockport, Plymouth.

I think its so misleading to come out with statements of "it was Sisu or no one".

Its a bit like wanting to sell your house, but deciding before putting it on the market that no one wants it because no one has tried to buy it.

 

[cloughie]

Remember reports of him quaffing copious amounts of Champagne in celebration at the time.

Which means he thought he was getting a good deal.

Don't think that any deal could have been done without the input and permission of Robinson.

Agreed Robinson is a underhand sly self interest individual who would loved coming out of this as the hero who let his money go for the benefit of the club.

He would have most certainly cut some deal with sisu

Robinson the original 'true' socialist millionaire

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Robinson the original true socialist millionaire

Aha, love that! One of them neo-liberal 'New Labour' tw@s who have took Labour from it's TRUE roots! Now another party that doesn't care about us. At least they aren't tory.

Sorry for taking the thread off track.

Robinson's ideal choice probably involved him having an even bigger pay-off!

 

[cloughie]

Aha, love that! One of them neo-liberal 'New Labour' tw@s who have took Labour from it's TRUE roots! Now another party that doesn't care about us. At least they aren't tory.

Sorry for taking the thread off track.

Robinson's ideal choice probably involved him having an even bigger pay-off!

Robinson was ahead of his time some might say he was 'new labour' before Blair etc

And yes his choice would have undoutably meant more for himself

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

The Politics Graduate & the Socialist in me thinks: well that's three of us who are pissed off that we've been totally disenfranchised by the only political party that came close to representing us selling out to pursue a centre-Tory ideological stance: as a % of posters in the thread, that's pretty high.

Surely time for a new political party? One that actually has a soul and gives a fuck? It's a fresh marketing angle, I know, but it could play surprisingly well...do a New Labour on New Labour, be slicker than like the Real Labour etc lot, who just came over as antiquated. Maybe employ satire as a primary weapon.

 

[tbh444]

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/tag/qtwtain/

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The Politics Graduate & the Socialist in me thinks: well that's three of us who are pissed off that we've been totally disenfranchised by the only political party that came close to representing us selling out to pursue a centre-Tory ideological stance: as a % of posters in the thread, that's pretty high.

Surely time for a new political party? One that actually has a soul and gives a feck? It's a fresh marketing angle, I know, but it could play surprisingly well...do a New Labour on New Labour, be slicker than like the Real Labour etc lot, who just came over as antiquated. Maybe employ satire as a primary weapon.

It's a shame Militant Labour faction got kicked out (I weren't alive for them), replaced by middle-class, oxbridge grads to try and sort out pressing needs for the working-class, allowing to people/MPs like Robinson to move Labour closer to the centre.

Thing is, our parties are entrenched, only true way to reform is by revolution!

But I agree with you

Warning: POTENTIAL CONTENTIOUS STATEMENT

I think we should get rid of the monarchy, each one us has to pay 50p for them and for what they are, they are, essentially, tyrants, and we are not true citizens.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Yeah, I'm in favour of Revolution. But with the amount of apathy about, it's about as likely as City spending a couple of million in the January transfer window. Cameron's just as bad in that he has no real values either. Your options are two weak watered down centre-ist versions of what those parties once ideologically stood for. Money is more important to both of them than anything else.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/tag/qtwtain/

“It’s really important to distinguish between a coalition that is a marriage of conviction and a coalition that is a marriage of convenience". Yes, Tony, because all the other political coalitions were people who wanted to share power, weren't they? :jerkit:

 

[wingy]

It's a shame Militant Labour faction got kicked out (I weren't alive for them), replaced by middle-class, oxbridge grads to try and sort out pressing needs for the working-class, allowing to people/MPs like Robinson to move Labour closer to the centre.

Thing is, our parties are entrenched, only true way to reform is by revolution!

But I agree with you

Warning: POTENTIAL CONTENTIOUS STATEMENT

I think we should get rid of the monarchy, each one us has to pay 50p for them and for what they are, they are, essentially, tyrants, and we are not true citizens.

Knocked the doors for Nellist during his Election succes ,not a chance of corruption with that guy ,no snout in the trough like they've all been at for the last 15yrs,can't believe he lost his seat in the locals.

 

[Waldorf]

As our situation is directly related to stadium ownership, how many clubs in the UK don't own their ground?

Its well known that a lot of the financial difficulties in Italy are as a result of most grounds being owned by local councils. Are we alone in that respect? Because the fact we don't is a reason why we might have gone bust, as opposed to those other clubs you mention. Those clubs are an attractive proposition because they have revenue potential. Our's is capped to a certain extent which would directly influence any potential investment. The initial outlay to access those revenue streams would put off alot of people.

Stadium ownership has bugger all to do with our situation. People seem to think the Arena is a golden goose - it isn't. Until recently, it barely made any profit at all, and even last year, the profits just about equate to what CCFC pay in rent. So if the club owned the Ricoh, and took out its rent, and (say) the catering payments, we'd not only have a club that was losing money, but a stadium as well. Brilliant!

 

[Grendel]

It's a shame Militant Labour faction got kicked out (I weren't alive for them), replaced by middle-class, oxbridge grads to try and sort out pressing needs for the working-class, allowing to people/MPs like Robinson to move Labour closer to the centre.

Thing is, our parties are entrenched, only true way to reform is by revolution!

But I agree with you

Warning: POTENTIAL CONTENTIOUS STATEMENT

I think we should get rid of the monarchy, each one us has to pay 50p for them and for what they are, they are, essentially, tyrants, and we are not true citizens.

Are you citizen Smith?

Power To The People.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Aa

Yeah, I'm in favour of Revolution. But with the amount of apathy about, it's about as likely as City spending a couple of million in the January transfer window. Cameron's just as bad in that he has no real values either. Your options are two weak watered down centre-ist versions of what those parties once ideologically stood for. Money is more important to both of them than anything else.

I hate the torys (as most of Coventry do!) But there is little difference to Labour to tory, Labour were in favour of Austerity, years ago that was impossible! Its a many, many people in Britain have a apathetic attitude to politics, however, that's down to it not being taught in all schools (bar a-levels, but not everyone takes A-levels, let alone politics, I have to go to PK for politics!), probably because it's a 'dangerous' subject to teach as I believe the majority of people would take on left-wing ideals (although many are, deep down, even in America!) which could led to people challeneging the government + monarchy!

Also, uneducation on such an important subject (politics) is a crime (but they wouldn't want that would they), which is why people vote disgraceful parties such as the BNP (only a crisis away of making real gains!) and also because of policies pursued by New Labour (aka scum Labour) and CONDEM (SCUM) and buy into the idea of conserving the monarchy so we conserve our 'tradition'.

Knocked the doors for Nellist during his Election succes ,not a chance of corruption with that guy ,no snout in the trough like they've all been at for the last 15yrs,can't believe he lost his seat in the locals.

I respect Nellist big time, he's genuine, where's normal clothes and I see him walk back from work, such a genuine person, he was Labour when they actually were half for the Labouring class!

Are you citizen Smith?

Power To The People.

FINALLY, SOMETHING WE AGREE WITH! I could have seen you being a pro-monachist, tory so and so! Unless you're being sarcastic

Who's citizen Smith?

EDIT: ah, I see that was an insult. Oh well, we'll have to wait to agree on something...

 

[chiefdave]

I've always had an issue with the notion that if SISU hadn't come in when they did we wouldn't exist. For a start it was a self imposed deadline and the reason it seemed to be put in place was to force Robinson to take less than he wanted. Worse case scenario would have been going into admin, I'm not sure Linnell or anyone can say with any confidence what would happen then.

Look at the state Pompey are in and it looks like they're going to end up with 5 bids to takeover the club!

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

And what's a 10-point deduction between friends?

Waggott's just effectively handed us a 12-point handicap by destabilising the club 3 games into the new season...

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Politics is dead......ideology is yesterdays news....

Absolutely pointless voting these days.....total waste of my time....

and the public wants what the public gets.....well I don't get what this
society wants...i'm going underground.

:guitar2:

 

[Grendel]

And what's a 10-point deduction between friends?

Waggott's just effectively handed us a 12-point handicap by destabilising the club 3 games into the new season...

Talk about me obsessed with thorn. Your new found zeal against waggot permeates every theead.

12 point handicap suggests to me you think preserving the status quo would have meant 4 wins. So a manager who won 2 away games in his entire career suddenly wins 3 in a row?

Have you been on the sherry early today?

 

[shy_tall_knight]

those 10 points we avoided by not going into admin in 2007 seem very hollow now we stayed up that season finishing 21st followed 15th 19th 18th then relegated.

Never believed the doomsday scenario the Ricoh may be the root of a lot of our problems but whilst it is there there will always be a professional club in Cov.

The deadline was artificial allowing the shares to be given away and for the former directors to get some of this debt back from SISU.

 

[Moff]

Well with all the political hardline attitudes on this thread can I at least ask that come the revolution, can you remove that twat Linnell from the airwaves. That would get my vote!

 

[lordsummerisle]

Well with all the political hardline attitudes on this thread can I at least ask that come the revolution, can you remove that twat Linnell from the airwaves. That would get my vote!

Already got his cigar and blindfold ready.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Talk about me obsessed with thorn. Your new found zeal against waggot permeates every theead.

12 point handicap suggests to me you think preserving the status quo would have meant 4 wins. So a manager who won 2 away games in his entire career suddenly wins 3 in a row?

Have you been on the sherry early today?

Thorn is gone and you turn every thread back to his focus. Hopefully you'll stop soon. Waggott is still here. Hopefully I'll stop soon after he leaves. Until such time, I'll highlight his inadequacies in the same way you zealously jumped on Thorn's. But hopefully without your characteristic hyperbole and fiction

 

[Grendel]

Thorn is gone and you turn every thread back to his focus. Hopefully you'll stop soon. Waggott is still here. Hopefully I'll stop soon after he leaves. Until such time, I'll highlight his inadequacies in the same way you zealously jumped on Thorn's. But hopefully without your characteristic hyperbole and fiction

By implication you turn it back. Define 12 point handicap then - what did you mean?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

By implication you turn it back. Define 12 point handicap then - what did you mean?

Into a new season, we were thrown into turmoil which resulted in a 4-game losing streak; which had the potential to deliver 12 points.

You'll say - predictably - we wouldn't have won them all. Conjecture. I'll say we lost them all. Fact

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Thorn is gone and you turn every thread back to his focus. Hopefully you'll stop soon. Waggott is still here. Hopefully I'll stop soon after he leaves. Until such time, I'll highlight his inadequacies in the same way you zealously jumped on Thorn's. But hopefully without your characteristic hyperbole and fiction

Not going to lie, I quite like Waggott, he isn't too bad, so may I ask why you think differently?

It has took a long time to appoint Robins, BUT, as Waggot said (it was blindly obvious though) it was a process we couldn't have rushed, which we have done in the past and STILL failied, so we took our (as in the whole club) time and hopefully it will pay off!

The talk of a 12 deficit caused BY Waggot however, is ridiculous and is caused by the extreme anti-SISU sentitment*, he made a decision, to sack Thorn, rightly (although after 3 games it was debateable). And trusted Shaw and I think it rests more in SHAW's hands than Waggott's, Shaw lost 4 embarresing games and quite frankly, made Thorn look like Fergie (don't take that one literally!) Waggot needed to take his time to select a manager as before, we've appointed quickly and we've failed. Fact.

*Which is unjustified, why? Yes they have had their shortcomings and have made promises they couldn't keep, but overall, they've done everything to keep us afloat, they want a return on their investment, as all business' do and they know we get prem, they get a return, but we need to sort out the sh*t behind the scences before signing expensive players!

I reject the notion that it was SISU or NOTHING, but were the alternatives better? You don't know!

... trust me there is worse out there!

I'll like to add I'm not 'pro-SISU', but I might appear it to the 'anti-SISU' zealots!

 

[Grendel]

Into a new season, we were thrown into turmoil which resulted in a 4-game losing streak; which had the potential to deliver 12 points.

You'll say - predictably - we wouldn't have won them all. Conjecture. I'll say we lost them all. Fact

Not conjecture at all. If you prepare a forecast you absorb the evidence from prior outcomes. The best most optimistic projection is 3 points. We could have 12 points. We could play a full strength Arsenal team and win 15 nil. Unlikely.

You said a 12 point handicap in your original post. So do you actually believe we would have 15 points now if we hadn't acted as we did?