If jr ges against ccc (1 Viewer)

[James Smith]

Commercial loan to cover repayment of another loan? Do you think that's feasible?

I've had telephone offers to do just that at work, I have to refer them to the manager who then takes delight in telling them to stuff off.

 

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[Sky Blue Dal]

I hope it isn't mainly so that more things will be out in the open. Whether it is how bad SISU are, how bad the council are etc.

From reading all your past posts, I have a feeling even if SISU comes out in court as showing evidence of being the main instigator of the clubs demise, you will still find a way to defend them.

Please note, the FR hearing is all about whether it was legitimate for the tax payers money to be used by CCC to save ACL and has nothing to do with the way SISU running a football club. Hence that will probably be your excuse to defend them no matter what.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I think swanageskyblue is correct in a lot of his thinking. Only reason SISU are still here is to get a return on their investment. That return was never going to come from a L1 football team.

No doubt the "immense value creation to happen in the future" is the recovery of the loss of incomes, damage to business, costs of loans, losses that would have had to be funded, the costs of relegation even. That is if they win their case. To date the CCC has not put forward much evidence to counter it..... not because it doesnt have any but because it wasnt required to.

There could be claims for compensation certain;ly claims for the legal expenses involved. In addition I think I am right in saying that CCC losing the case in the European courts (and it could get there) might mean a fine being imposed on CCC. Fines are usually a percentage of turnover. There is a lot to lose here for both sides.

The remedies for losing in the UK courts can be that the whole thing has to be re worked to tick all the boxes, then through to the whole transaction being prohibited. That could mean ACL having to refinance if it can - perhaps why they are so clearly focussed on making the rest of their business work well, if they can well thats another hurdle to overcome. However are not ACL and the Charity all joined in to the JR challenge? so there could be costs etc there that could weaken their resolve

This is not going to be a quick process, there will be appeals by whichever side loses the next round, and the costs will mount up. It is a contest as to who has the deepest pockets and the most stomach for it.

At the two extremes you could have the Ricoh given to SISU to settle claims all the way through to CCFC being of no further use and wound up........ with all the options that exist in between. High stakes and wont be settled in months more like years.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Maybe it is the countries first inside arena?

You'll be reassured to know 3 massive warehouses just started going up on the spare land around the old Peugeot factory anyway, so not an option in the slightest.

 

[swanageskyblue]

I think swanageskyblue is correct in a lot of his thinking. Only reason SISU are still here is to get a return on their investment. That return was never going to come from a L1 football team.

No doubt the "immense value creation to happen in the future" is the recovery of the loss of incomes, damage to business, costs of loans, losses that would have had to be funded, the costs of relegation even. That is if they win their case. To date the CCC has not put forward much evidence to counter it..... not because it doesnt have any but because it wasnt required to.

There could be claims for compensation certain;ly claims for the legal expenses involved. In addition I think I am right in saying that CCC losing the case in the European courts (and it could get there) might mean a fine being imposed on CCC. Fines are usually a percentage of turnover. There is a lot to lose here for both sides.

The remedies for losing in the UK courts can be that the whole thing has to be re worked to tick all the boxes, then through to the whole transaction being prohibited. That could mean ACL having to refinance if it can - perhaps why they are so clearly focussed on making the rest of their business work well, if they can well thats another hurdle to overcome. However are not ACL and the Charity all joined in to the JR challenge? so there could be costs etc there that could weaken their resolve

This is not going to be a quick process, there will be appeals by whichever side loses the next round, and the costs will mount up. It is a contest as to who has the deepest pockets and the most stomach for it.

At the two extremes you could have the Ricoh given to SISU to settle claims all the way through to CCFC being of no further use and wound up........ with all the options that exist in between. High stakes and wont be settled in months more like years.

Thanks for your comments OSB. It seems that EU law could be a key factor in what damages they would be able to pursue if they win the JR - and that alone adds years to the timescale. If - and it is a big if - the thinking is right, it means there is zero chance of SISU agreeing to any form of interim move back to the Ricoh, as that would seriously undermine the case they would have proven in court - that they were forced out of the Ricoh by CCC. Which would mean no chance of a return until the whole case is settled and - given that the longer they are away, the bigger the eventual claim for damages - that could well be 5 years or more. It also gives them the perfect excuse for not pushing on with their own stadium build until the case is settled.

 

[wingy]

Thanks for your comments OSB. It seems that EU law could be a key factor in what damages they would be able to pursue if they win the JR - and that alone adds years to the timescale. If - and it is a big if - the thinking is right, it means there is zero chance of SISU agreeing to any form of interim move back to the Ricoh, as that would seriously undermine the case they would have proven in court - that they were forced out of the Ricoh by CCC. Which would mean no chance of a return until the whole case is settled and - given that the longer they are away, the bigger the eventual claim for damages - that could well be 5 years or more. It also gives them the perfect excuse for not pushing on with their own stadium build until the case is settled.

And five years of hemorraging fans ,what will there be to come back to?

 

[st john]

Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

Although any outcome is possible, Sisu started the whole process by refusing to honour a legally binding agreement, paying the rent.

 

[OyJimmy]

Another point to bear in mind is even if the court awarded damages (and I don't really see how they can) then the money would be paid to limited. But because ACL is owed cash by limited then they could pay ACLs debts and then tell the administrator that the compensation was being held back to sell limiteds debt with ACL. Of course Sisu would get anything that's left over.

Frankly I don't think damages are applicable. The most Sisu will get is a reorganisation of the loan on commercial terms

 

[Hobo]

The most SISU will get is extra time and reasons not to negotiate and dick everyone around a bit longer: fans, ACL, CCC, FL, Northampton.............................