If acl act on behalf of joint owners CCc/Alan Higgs (1 Viewer)

[Sky Blue Pete]

How does depressing acl get sisu access to the Ricoh arena on the cheap?

Is there not a further offer that acl can make on behalf of CCc/Alan Higgs that will show sisu's intentions more clearly?

Talking to friend out if the country who is less emotive and more able to pick out pertinent facts than I am so close to the situation

 

---

[Nick]

Surely if ACL came out and said "You can have it for x amount" it would put the ball in SISU's court. I just think it is one huge game of poker with bluffing from all players.

 

[oldskyblue58]

because what they are trying to do is drain ACL of funds, create a situation whereby they cant meet their debts, neither Charity or CCC will put working capital in to ACL to keep it going they dont have funds to do it, that means ACL goes in to Administration or creates a fire sale for the Charity and or CCC at a low value. Was easier whilst CCFC had a stake in the lease (once that goes then it becomes harder for SISU) but there isnt a queue of people lining up to buy stadia

Or at least that is one theory

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Could the council do more? Should we being considering our position with them snd using our elected councillors to put pressure on?

Should we?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Could the council do more? Should we being considering our position with them snd using our elected councillors to put pressure on?

Should we?

The Council have done a lot already. Rent concessions early on. Loaning money at favourable rates etc. There isn't much more they can do.

 

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

because what they are trying to do is drain ACL of funds, create a situation whereby they cant meet their debts, neither Charity or CCC will put working capital in to ACL to keep it going they dont have funds to do it, that means ACL goes in to Administration or creates a fire sale for the Charity and or CCC at a low value. Was easier whilst CCFC had a stake in the lease (once that goes then it becomes harder for SISU) but there isnt a queue of people lining up to buy stadia

Or at least that is one theory

Could or would the charity be able to purchase the council portion to protect their share in the scenario above, and sell to a person of their choice?

 

[coop]

they put an offer on the table for £150:000 plus match day cost.there paying 2/3rds of that to play at sixfields with no fans what more do we expect ccc&acl to do

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

they put an offer on the table for £150:000 plus match day cost.there paying 2/3rds of that to play at sixfields with no fans what more do we expect ccc&acl to do

I think the point is that acl is a management company that works on behalf of CCc/Alan Higgs. The charity want their money back and surely CCc want the football club in Coventry. CCc are half of acl so CCc are the power behind things.

How much do they want the team here?

 

[Paxman II]

because what they are trying to do is drain ACL of funds, create a situation whereby they cant meet their debts, neither Charity or CCC will put working capital in to ACL to keep it going they dont have funds to do it, that means ACL goes in to Administration or creates a fire sale for the Charity and or CCC at a low value. Was easier whilst CCFC had a stake in the lease (once that goes then it becomes harder for SISU) but there isnt a queue of people lining up to buy stadia

Or at least that is one theory

I agree to some extent but should ACL go to the wall and the stadium be up for grabs lease hold there will be plenty of groups interested. Not just SISU. Big risk for SISU as a strategy. What stops Haskell from out bidding SISU?
I think as time moves on the realisation that the only football club that would play there is CCFC and without it then the stadium and it's foot fall will decrease and concerts and conferencing will not in the long term make it viable or at least worth investing in further down the track....

 

[James Smith]

Surely if ACL came out and said "You can have it for x amount" it would put the ball in SISU's court. I just think it is one huge game of poker with bluffing from all players.

Reading between the lines I think the two parties are miles if not light years apart on what they consider a suitable figure and what that figure will actually buy. Suppose Joy said at the ownership meeting that she wanted the Freehold of the Ricoh and the surrounding land for say the £5m OSB58 suggested. That figure doesn't even cover what the Higgs paid us for our share of ACL, and would I assume mean that ACL becomes a 100% subsidiary of whichever company is currently running our football club. If the council put a figure on the table say £35m (which would include ACL debt) for ACL, Higgs would get their cash back and the council shouldn't be out of pocket after all the legal sh*t SISU have dumped on them and they make a return on their investment.

The problem is that those figures are quite a ways apart and what's on offer is too.

 

[Tom's Dad]

Some years ago Northampton Council sold Sixfields to the Cobblers for £1. It removed a lost making liability from the council and helped the football club develop.

Everyone a winner!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Reading between the lines I think the two parties are miles if not light years apart on what they consider a suitable figure and what that figure will actually buy. Suppose Joy said at the ownership meeting that she wanted the Freehold of the Ricoh and the surrounding land for say the £5m OSB58 suggested. That figure doesn't even cover what the Higgs paid us for our share of ACL, and would I assume mean that ACL becomes a 100% subsidiary of whichever company is currently running our football club. If the council put a figure on the table say £35m (which would include ACL debt) for ACL, Higgs would get their cash back and the council shouldn't be out of pocket after all the legal sh*t SISU have dumped on them and they make a return on their investment.

The problem is that those figures are quite a ways apart and what's on offer is too.

How much do we want CCfc to play in Coventry? Acl are a management company running the Ricoh arena for the 2 owners ccc& Alan Higgs. CCc are making the decisions here. There must be a deal to be done.

Initial investment by Alan Higgs? Initial investment by CCc? Equals??

Less rent paid plus any bank charges equals what???

This should be a starting point. The reality is CCfc are not playing in Coventry and CCc are the only ones with the power to change this

 

[NorthernWisdom]

One thing's for sure, if you don't talk you can't make a deal.

 

[Grappa]

How much do we want CCfc to play in Coventry? Acl are a management company running the Ricoh arena for the 2 owners ccc& Alan Higgs. CCc are making the decisions here. There must be a deal to be done.

Initial investment by Alan Higgs? Initial investment by CCc? Equals??

Less rent paid plus any bank charges equals what???

This should be a starting point. The reality is CCfc are not playing in Coventry and CCc are the only ones with the power to change this

Or we could all keep attending every single event that ACL put on to keep them in business and put absolutely no pressure on them to get back into negotiations, as suggested by the Trust.

 

[lordsummerisle]

but there isnt a queue of people lining up to buy stadia

Don't tell dongle that, he's already knitting his Nuneaton Sky Blues scarf for when Haskell buys it.

 

[James Smith]

How much do we want CCfc to play in Coventry? Acl are a management company running the Ricoh arena for the 2 owners ccc& Alan Higgs. CCc are making the decisions here. There must be a deal to be done.

Initial investment by Alan Higgs? Initial investment by CCc? Equals??

Less rent paid plus any bank charges equals what???

This should be a starting point. The reality is CCfc are not playing in Coventry and CCc are the only ones with the power to change this

But the likely result of the calculation from your equation will be more than the guesstimated figure of £5m, probably a lot more. Now if we believe the ACL statement where Joy supposedly said* sell me the Ricoh freehold at my price or the club never comes back to the Ricoh, if the council figure is any higher than hers we stay in NTFC**. As others have pointed out the club doesn't need the freehold to get access to all the revenues from the Ricoh and a long lease at say £100k per annum is probably a bargain.

I get the feeling that the word negotiate isn't in the SISU dictionary.

*Interesting to note SISU and /or Joy haven't denied that happened or issued proceedings for defamation.
**Or until the White Elephant stadium is built.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

But the likely result of the calculation from your equation will be more than the guesstimated figure of £5m, probably a lot more. Now if we believe the ACL statement where Joy supposedly said* sell me the Ricoh freehold at my price or the club never comes back to the Ricoh, if the council figure is any higher than hers we stay in NTFC**. As others have pointed out the club doesn't need the freehold to get access to all the revenues from the Ricoh and a long lease at say £100k per annum is probably a bargain.
*Interesting to note SISU and /or Joy haven't denied that happened or issued proceedings for defamation.
**Or until the White Elephant stadium is built.

I agree js.

The offer I heard was £150k/year. No deal on purchase price for CCc or Alan Higgs part. I really do think that CCc hold all the cards.

Currently I have no CCfc to follow and I want CCc to do all they can to resolve that.

They can and must do more. If sisu reject then ok direct action necessary but other councils have sold for a loss

 

[James Smith]

I agree js.

The offer I heard was £150k/year. No deal on purchase price for CCc or Alan Higgs part. I really do think that CCc hold all the cards.

Currently I have no CCfc to follow and I want CCc to do all they can to resolve that.

They can and must do more. If sisu reject then ok direct action necessary but other councils have sold for a loss

Yeah other councils have offloaded loss making stadia or offered their tenants part ownership of the company managing the stadium. At the moment though ACL isn't costing the council anything much (apart from SISU legal challenges) so why sell at a loss? The loan to ACL is actually making a minor profit for them. I can quite happily believe that the council went into the ownership meeting with an offer that seemed reasonable to them only to be confronted by Joy and her alleged demands.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Yeah other councils have offloaded loss making stadia or offered their tenants part ownership of the company managing the stadium. At the moment though ACL isn't costing the council anything much (apart from SISU legal challenges) so why sell at a loss? The loan to ACL is actually making a minor profit for them. I can quite happily believe that the council went into the ownership meeting with an offer that seemed reasonable to them only to be confronted by Joy and her alleged demands.

Me too but sisu don't give a shit and CCc should. I really do think any local fans should be urging their councillors to make it happen

 

[shropshirecov]

How much do we want CCfc to play in Coventry? Acl are a management company running the Ricoh arena for the 2 owners ccc& Alan Higgs. CCc are making the decisions here. There must be a deal to be done.

Initial investment by Alan Higgs? Initial investment by CCc? Equals??

Less rent paid plus any bank charges equals what???

This should be a starting point. The reality is CCfc are not playing in Coventry and CCc are the only ones with the power to change this

A proportion of posters on here don't want ccfc playing in Coventry if its owned by sisu. They're happy watching ladies football and charity matches

 

[RegTheDonk]

Some years ago Northampton Council sold Sixfields to the Cobblers for £1. It removed a lost making liability from the council and helped the football club develop.

Everyone a winner!

Its a difficult one because I think the council make a bit of money from the Ricoh, rather than it costing them. Also, to some degree it would be privatisation of a public assett, and thats obviously a bit of a hot topic with all the other public cuts going on.

If it were indeed costing a lot to run, then there would be pressure from the rat payers to sell up, presumably like the Northampton situation?

While it would be great to have the club owning the stadium, as others have said, the Ricoh would become a SISU assett not a CCFC asset. We'd just be paying rent to someone else.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Maybe, but would we though?

Personally I think they want out, and club and stadium combined is a lot more saleable than either separate.

 

[shmmeee]

How much do we want CCfc to play in Coventry? Acl are a management company running the Ricoh arena for the 2 owners ccc& Alan Higgs. CCc are making the decisions here. There must be a deal to be done.

Initial investment by Alan Higgs? Initial investment by CCc? Equals??

Less rent paid plus any bank charges equals what???

This should be a starting point. The reality is CCfc are not playing in Coventry and CCc are the only ones with the power to change this

What? Can I buy your house mate? We'll start with how much is left on the mortgage!

Why shouldn't CCFC just pay the agreed price for their share and everyone carry on as was intended when the arena was bought?

Why do CCC suddenly need to hand over their shares in a 50/50 project? The arena wasn't built just for the club you know.

FFS this is boring now. Sisu want to arena far below market value and far below the improved rates they are entitled to.

 

[covcity4life]

shmeee its almost as if you dont want the club to prosper

this is a cov city forum, if we have bias views it should be towards ccfc not the council

seems to me you would be happier if council made a profit rather than cov get promoted.

 

[Sisued]

shmeee its almost as if you dont want the club to prosper

this is a cov city forum, if we have bias views it should be towards ccfc not the council

seems to me you would be happier if council made a profit rather than cov get promoted.

Just because we are fans doesnt mean we agree that things should just be given over to the club for nothing. It would be nice i agree but this is reality and thats not going to happen. If our so very very rich owners as they like to remind us would actually pay for something they might get a chance to buy something

 

[theferret]

Just because we are fans doesnt mean we agree that things should just be given over to the club for nothing. It would be nice i agree but this is reality and thats not going to happen. If our so very very rich owners as they like to remind us would actually pay for something they might get a chance to buy something

10 months ago SISU offered £14 million for a 50% stake in the management company. It was rejected. Were they trying to get the arena for 'nothing' then?

 

[Sisued]

I dont know what the value of the company is so i cant say. Can you tell me and prove what the value of the company is?

 

[theferret]

I dont know what the value of the company is so i cant say. Can you tell me and prove what the value of the company is?

The value of any company is simply what someone is prepared to pay for it. How can you prove such a thing?

SISUs offer was to pay off the mortgage in return for the Higgs share. That valued their offer at £14 million (based on the council bail out). Was it enough? Who knows, but it certainly wasn't 'nothing'.

 

[oldskyblue58]

10 months ago SISU offered £14 million for a 50% stake in the management company. It was rejected. Were they trying to get the arena for 'nothing' then?

No they didnt ......... they offered the Higgs Charity less than 6m for their shares and part of the deal to get the Council to agree to that purchase offered a plan to distress the yorkshire bank loan to a settlement of less than £5m ( value is TF's assessment of what deal could have been done for) with the council being liable for 50% of that Yorkshire Bank settlement

 

[fernandopartridge]

No they didnt ......... they offered the Higgs Charity less than 6m for their shares and part of the deal to get the Council to agree to that purchase offered a plan to distress the yorkshire bank loan to a settlement of less than £5m ( value is TF's assessment of what deal could have been done for) with the council being liable for 50% of that Yorkshire Bank settlement

OSB - how would you value the shares in ACL? How many shares were issued to each shareholder?

 

[Sisued]

The value of any company is simply what someone is prepared to pay for it. How can you prove such a thing?

SISUs offer was to pay off the mortgage in return for the Higgs share. That valued their offer at £14 million (based on the council bail out). Was it enough? Who knows, but it certainly wasn't 'nothing'.

No companies are valued. Usually against turnover and profit

 

[fernandopartridge]

No companies are valued. Usually against turnover and profit

True, but the real value is only what the market is willing to pay for it.

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB - how would you value the shares in ACL? How many shares were issued to each shareholder?

There are 3,516,112 £1 shares issued fp split equally between the Council and the Charity (in holding companies owned by each party to be exact)

In terms of valueing then there are many ways of doing that and because of the complex nature of the site I would expect there is no one set method applicable to each facet. These are only examples a valuer could use other methods

- leases are usually valued on rent roll x number of years (eg the casino)
- the shares in IEC are going to be perhaps considered on Turnover, future projections, net profit etc
- the lease that ACL own would be valued on the income or potential for income, if the lease covers the development land as well then it could depend on planning permissions, value of sales of similar etc (but that land may rest with the CCC)
- You then have valuations of fixtures & fittings which are resale value 2nd hand
- would you say there was any goodwill in the business, you could try but that is the premium someone might pay above tangible asset value
- there might be rights to income or other profits under the lease that might have a value equally there might be costs that depress value
- you would need to factor in any potential or existing liabilities too

Add up all the various parts you get an overall value. If you then buy 50% then it is reasonable to assume paying 50% of value (but not necessarily) if you buy 51% or more then because that gets you simple control that is more valuable

That is just a few thoughts ....... to be honest I am glad I do not have to value it!

As you say the true value is what a willing buyer is prepared to pay for it ....... the price might be higher if there are 2 or more buyers of course

 

[covcity4life]

There are 3,516,112 £1 shares issued fp split equally between the Council and the Charity (in holding companies owned by each party to be exact)

In terms of valueing then there are many ways of doing that and because of the complex nature of the site I would expect there is no one set method applicable to each facet. These are only examples a valuer could use other methods

- leases are usually valued on rent roll x number of years (eg the casino)
- the shares in IEC are going to be perhaps considered on Turnover, future projections, net profit etc
- the lease that ACL own would be valued on the income or potential for income, if the lease covers the development land as well then it could depend on planning permissions, value of sales of similar etc (but that land may rest with the CCC)
- You then have valuations of fixtures & fittings which are resale value 2nd hand
- would you say there was any goodwill in the business, you could try but that is the premium someone might pay above tangible asset value
- there might be rights to income or other profits under the lease that might have a value equally there might be costs that depress value

Add up all the various parts you get an overall value. If you then buy 50% then it is reasonable to assume paying 50% of value (but not necessarily) if you buy 51% or more then because that gets you simple control that is more valuable

That is just a few thoughts ....... to be honest I am glad I do not have to value it!

dont worry we all are,dont think any owner could afford 1000000 billion to buy the ricoh from the council.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

to be honest I am glad I do not have to value it!

Another reason the two parties but heads though isn't it, as what value do you put on such a thing?

Not like their are many precedents, and the fair value to one party can be very different to what the other considers fair. Doesn't necessarily make either party wrong in terms of their own context either.