How much does it cost to employ 315 nurses?

Brighton Sky Blue

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Because the US has a death penalty and we don’t?

Which bits of the US system would you gut? Fair trial? Appeal?

Just be a man and say you want them dead because you’re angry. Don’t hide behind “oh I just want to save money” like a pussy.
For the record though I do think in cases of the truly abhorrent crimes where guilt is flagrantly obvious I think the criminal has forfeited the right to live. It’s the estimated 4% of cases where an innocent person is executed by the state that have me believe it should never be reinstated as a blanket punishment for murder
 
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dutchman

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Because the US has a death penalty and we don’t?

Which bits of the US system would you gut? Fair trial? Appeal?
It's irrelevant which parts of the US system I would hypothetically gut since we are discussing the UK which does not have the US system of justice.

Just be a man and say you want them dead because you’re angry. Don’t hide behind “oh I just want to save money” like a pussy.
I merely pointed out it would be a lot cheaper. In another thread I actually put forward and argument for keeping a prisoner alive:

 

Grendel

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Because the US has a death penalty and we don’t?

Which bits of the US system would you gut? Fair trial? Appeal?

Just be a man and say you want them dead because you’re angry. Don’t hide behind “oh I just want to save money” like a pussy.
The only person who seems angry is you.

Ivs stated on another thread this is a discussion on whole life tariffs

There are about 80 people who fit that bill and it’s rather unlikely many would get past the first stage of appeal and perhaps you can tell me how £800 million would be spent on appeals.
 

dutchman

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He’d have gone to an age appropriate prison. You do realise that there’s plenty of inmates in prison with learning issues. Broadmoor is for dangerous prisoners with severe mental health issues. It’s not a case of you couldn’t pass your 11+ so it’s straight of to a secure mental health unit for you.
So you're now saying he was fully responsible for his actions and having a mental age of thirteen* is no defence?

*Which I don't necessarily agree with.
 

skybluetony176

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The only person who seems angry is you.

Ivs stated on another thread this is a discussion on whole life tariffs

There are about 80 people who fit that bill and it’s rather unlikely many would get past the first stage of appeal and perhaps you can tell me how £800 million would be spent on appeals.
For starters we’ll be picking up the tab for legal costs on both sides. Then you have the cost of keeping them during the appeal process which could be years. You’re suggesting 80 prisoners are eligible in your opinion for capital punishment. Say the appeal process takes an average of 10 years per prisoner, £ 800M divided by 80 equals £10M per prisoner. Sounds plausible to me. If they lived to serve 40 years of a full life sentence that would cost roughly £2.6M per prisoner or £208M for the 80 prisoners.
 

Grendel

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For the record though I do think in cases of the truly abhorrent crimes where guilt is flagrantly obvious I think the criminal has forfeited the right to live. It’s the estimated 4% of cases where an innocent person is executed by the state that have me believe it should never be reinstated as a blanket punishment for murder
Exactly it’s pointless talking about cases 60 years ago.

People should have A look at the grisly characters on the whole life tariff. The one whose been there the longest is Robert John Maudsley. Although it’s never been proved Mr Maudsley ate the brains of the victims he held hostage while he systematically tortured them in his prison cell he has killed more in prison than out.

Another one of two women on the list (we all know the other) Joanna Dennahy has frequently tried to escape so they continue their blood lust

Some have admitted they could never be released. One Anthony Arkwright has been in for 32 years and still is only in his early 50 years so is likely to be in prison for well over 60 years and no doubt receive pretty good health care if old age kicks in. Perhaps he will get to 100 and celebrate 80 years in clink and get a telegram from the monarch at the same time.
 

Grendel

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Not the only one with blood lust if this thread is anything to go by
What would you do with Miss Dennahy? Described as the most dangerous woman in Britain. Have a cosy chat over tea and cake? I’d be careful as she had made plans to chop a prison guards hand and use the fingers to activate the biometric system so she could kill a bit more. She was feeling bored apparently
 

SBT

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What would you do with Miss Dennahy? Described as the most dangerous woman in Britain. Have a cosy chat over tea and cake? I’d be careful as she had made plans to chop a prison guards hand and use the fingers to activate the biometric system so she could kill a bit more. She was feeling bored apparently
It is honestly quite sweet how much joy you seem to get describing this stuff! You should be a tour guide or something (maybe you already are)
 

Grendel

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It is honestly quite sweet how much joy you seem to get describing this stuff! You should be a tour guide or something (maybe you already are)
The tea and cake was a sarcastic reference.

If I was one of the relatives of her victims I don’t think I’d find the funny side

 

Brighton Sky Blue

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Oerh


Exactly it’s pointless talking about cases 60 years ago.

People should have A look at the grisly characters on the whole life tariff. The one whose been there the longest is Robert John Maudsley. Although it’s never been proved Mr Maudsley ate the brains of the victims he held hostage while he systematically tortured them in his prison cell he has killed more in prison than out.

Another one of two women on the list (we all know the other) Joanna Dennahy has frequently tried to escape so they continue their blood lust

Some have admitted they could never be released. One Anthony Arkwright has been in for 32 years and still is only in his early 50 years so is likely to be in prison for well over 60 years and no doubt receive pretty good health care if old age kicks in. Perhaps he will get to 100 and celebrate 80 years in clink and get a telegram from the monarch at the same time.
Assuming the baby murdering nurse is proven beyond all doubt to have killed all she is accused of she is another who I think would deserve it. Then again I’m basing it on moral grounds and 100% undeniable guilt the former of which is highly subjective. Looking at American executions the likes of Dylan Roof should also have received a quick death for they committed the acts in broad daylight and made their motives and lack of remorse abundantly clear.
 

skybluetony176

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So you're now saying he was fully responsible for his actions and having a mental age of thirteen* is no defence?

*Which I don't necessarily agree with.
I’ve never said he wasn’t responsible for his actions. I said him being trialed, convicted and hung for murder was wrong, which it was as 40years of appeals proved. How are you not getting this?
 
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clint van damme

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It's irrelevant which parts of the US system I would hypothetically gut since we are discussing the UK which does not have the US system of justice.



I merely pointed out it would be a lot cheaper. In another thread I actually put forward and argument for keeping a prisoner alive:

The US is probably the most similar country to us which still employs the death penalty which is why it's the main country used for comparison in these debates.
Of course there are still major differences.
 

TomRad85

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I swear the right are the biggest feelings over facts snowflakes around.

“wah I want to kill bad men and pretend it’s for cost reasons”

“wah I want to drive my car and not be reminded of the consequences”

“wah I didn’t lose the election it was all fraud”

“wah modern manufacturing doesn’t employ as many people and I lost my job for life that needed no education”

Bunch of fucking babies. Man up and deal with the real world. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

It’s never. “Yeah I just want to kill people” or “I don’t care about the survival of the species I want to drive a loud car”. Own your fucking ridiculous positions. You just look silly denying reality to save face.
This is a strange rant about the 'the right'. Almost heading into Tony territory. I've seen Ian & Brighton calling for death penalties this morning... hardly forum righties.

I'm Conservative and I'm not for the death penalty. If it happened to someone close to me I'm sure I'd want whoever dead and I never shed a tear when I hear one of these monsters has met their comeuppance in prison. Its just the whole theatre around the death penalty doesn't sit right with me.

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Brighton Sky Blue

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This is a strange rant about the 'the right'. Almost heading into Tony territory. I've seen Ian & Brighton calling for death penalties this morning... hardly forum righties.

I'm Conservative and I'm not for the death penalty. If it happened to someone close to me I'm sure I'd want whoever dead and I never shed a tear when I hear one of these monsters has met their comeuppance in prison. Its just the whole theatre around the death penalty doesn't sit right with me.

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I call for it in very specific cases. In general we can tell empirically that it’s not a deterrent and in some cases innocent people will be executed. In some cases e.g the Wests, Harold Shipman and those of similar ilk they have forfeited their right to life.
 

skybluetony176

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This is a strange rant about the 'the right'. Almost heading into Tony territory. I've seen Ian & Brighton calling for death penalties this morning... hardly forum righties.

I'm Conservative and I'm not for the death penalty. If it happened to someone close to me I'm sure I'd want whoever dead and I never shed a tear when I hear one of these monsters has met their comeuppance in prison. Its just the whole theatre around the death penalty doesn't sit right with me.

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Personally I’m on the wall to some degree. There’s been numerous cases where in the heat of the moment I’ve said I’d quite happily pull the trigger, press the button, pull the leaver. Especially where child killers are involved and especially since becoming a father. Murder is an horrendous crime and absolutely deserves the full weight of justice but there are several wider questions, the obvious one being what it says about us as a society. It clearly doesn’t work as a deterrent. In a civilised society with a robust appeal process aimed at ensuring that miscarriages of justice don’t happen, especially important if the sentence is death, it clearly doesn’t work as a cost saving exercise. So that only leaves revenge, an ugly character in a human being let alone a society so that really is the only thing to have a debate around. Deterrent and costs is no more than a straw man argument.

Michael Portilo did a very interesting TV documentary on the effectiveness of the death penalty from every aspect, deterrent, costs, even how painful it is for the recipient. The later was one of the most interesting parts. He went to America and looked at their system and methods and spoke to some of the main players on both parts of the argument. When he suggested to someone pro death penalty that it would be more palatable if the sentence was carried out in a painless fashion it would be more humane and therefore more acceptable to more people. The reaction from the guy was incredible, I thought he was going to kill Portilo just for suggesting it and ironically then face the death penalty himself. And that’s a major problem. As pointed out on here already some of the people who seem most pro death penalty seem to share a blood thirst with the very people they think should face the death penalty. Their judgment is clouded and they’re incapable of reaching a proper argument for it.
 
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TomRad85

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I call for it in very specific cases. In general we can tell empirically that it’s not a deterrent and in some cases innocent people will be executed. In some cases e.g the Wests, Harold Shipman and those of similar ilk they have forfeited their right to life.
I get where you're coming from, I really do. But some people seem to get off on it, which as I say, doesn't sit too well.

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Brighton Sky Blue

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I get where you're coming from, I really do. But some people seem to get off on it, which as I say, doesn't sit too well.

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I think Pierrepoint’s view that once they have repaid their debt with their life that’s the end of it is the right one. It’s like these online paedo stings that appear everywhere on YouTube, don’t plaster it all over the internet for likes just go straight to the police with the evidence.
 
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TomRad85

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I think Pierrepoint’s view that once they have repaid their debt with their life that’s the end of it is the right one. It’s like these online paedo stings that appear everywhere on YouTube, don’t plaster it all over the internet for likes just go straight to the police with the evidence.
I never understand why spree killers or terrorists or whatever are attempted to be bought in alive. They are literally there shooting or stabbing, just bring them down and be done with it. Once they are in custody alive though, just like anyone else, its a no from me.
Setting up a kill room like Dexter seems a bit psychotic... and who's doing the killing? Either someone already damaged or someone who may well be afterwards.

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Terry Gibson's perm

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When I read the title I thought the g man was going to make a generous offer to pay for some nurses from his astronomical pension pot😉
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

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I never understand why spree killers or terrorists or whatever are attempted to be bought in alive. They are literally there shooting or stabbing, just bring them down and be done with it. Once they are in custody alive though, just like anyone else, its a no from me.
Setting up a kill room like Dexter seems a bit psychotic... and who's doing the killing? Either someone already damaged or someone who may well be afterwards.

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I can understand that but really the state is killing them either in the act of the crime or after they have gone through due process and a trial. I would always prefer them if possible to be caught alive and made to go through a trial so there can be some hope of closure for relatives.

As above, I don’t believe in it as a blanket punishment.
 

TomRad85

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I can understand that but really the state is killing them either in the act of the crime or after they have gone through due process and a trial. I would always prefer them if possible to be caught alive and made to go through a trial so there can be some hope of closure for relatives.

As above, I don’t believe in it as a blanket punishment.
Out of interest, and I'm interested what you think, not arguing with you. Where is the cut off point for what kind of murder gets death penalty and what doesn't? If this was available as a punishment it would have to be written in law so you'd need set rules.

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rob9872

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Make prison building a national industry, dont rehabilitate and give staple food only, less likely to want to come back for playstations. Let the SAS deal with nutters, nonces and those who complain about them being neutralised.

Just appoint me home secretary :)
 

Brighton Sky Blue

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Out of interest, and I'm interested what you think, not arguing with you. Where is the cut off point for what kind of murder gets death penalty and what doesn't? If this was available as a punishment it would have to be written in law so you'd need set rules.

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That’s almost impossible to answer. Being specific I’d include things like desecration of the body, pre-meditation, number of victims, evidence of cruelty in the act and so on. Again as above my argument is a moral one which makes it subjective and in practice tough to implement.

In all cases though I would demand 100% undeniable guilt.
 
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TomRad85

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That’s almost impossible to answer. Being specific I’d include things like desecration of the body, pre-meditation, number of victims, evidence of cruelty in the act and so on. Again as above my argument is a moral one which makes it subjective and in practice tough to implement.

In all cases though I would demand 100% undeniable guilt.
Fair. I do get what you're saying and I certainly wouldn't cry over it if it was a thing.

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Ian1779

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This is a strange rant about the 'the right'. Almost heading into Tony territory. I've seen Ian & Brighton calling for death penalties this morning... hardly forum righties.

I'm Conservative and I'm not for the death penalty. If it happened to someone close to me I'm sure I'd want whoever dead and I never shed a tear when I hear one of these monsters has met their comeuppance in prison. Its just the whole theatre around the death penalty doesn't sit right with me.

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To be honest I don’t know how I feel about capital punishment - I can see arguments for and against. I can certainly see more justification for it in the more severe crimes, and there is the idea of absolute guilt as well.

I do think shmmeee has a point about cost of housing life criminals not being a relevant discussion point as to whether we should have a death penalty or not.

I totally get your notion about the theatre of it all - and can see why it doesn’t sit right with you.
 
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Brighton Sky Blue

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Fair. I do get what you're saying and I certainly wouldn't cry over it if it was a thing.

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By way of example there are many instances of relatives being able to forgive the perpetrators of murders carried out ‘in the heat of the moment’ or as ‘one offs’. As the acts of murder get more grotesque and more numerous the acts of forgiveness go down. It’s an incredibly difficult decision which is why it should rest in the hands of the most experienced judges or, perhaps, all of the families of the victims.
 

clint van damme

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Make prison building a national industry, dont rehabilitate and give staple food only, less likely to want to come back for playstations. Let the SAS deal with nutters, nonces and those who complain about them being neutralised.

Just appoint me home secretary :)
Doesn't work in America, a strict prison regime that is, not taking your post literally!
 
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