Hillsborough; The Truth At Last

Discussion in 'Football & Other Sports' started by torchomatic, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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  2. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    The police and the tactics were of course largely culpable, but lets not gloss over the issue that many ticketless scousers were in no small part still partially responsible for this. A point that most of Liverpool seems to have conveniently forgotten now that they have another avenue to blame.
     
  3. jimmyhillsfanclub

    jimmyhillsfanclub Well-Known Member

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    rob9872.....you need to learn to read!

    Fans were not responsible....they have been fully exonerated...thats what today is all about.

    It could have (and very nearly) happened to us in 1987....

    I suggest you get yer facts straight as posts like the one above make you look a tit!
     
  4. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    Absolute nonsense. Your Plato comment should be changed to "between lack of knowledge and ignorance".

    ....also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP
    Chief Constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on
    several police officers’ allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a
    large number of Liverpool fans. This extended beyond the media to Parliament.

    Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the Panel
    there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of
    aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation.
    140. As the severity of the disaster was becoming apparent, SYP Match Commander,

     
  5. Marty

    Marty Well-Known Member

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    I would replace partially with largely. I suppose it was everyone else fault that Heysel occurred too.
     
  6. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    The Only reason that tragedy happened was A.Through allowing the match to proceed in an inadequate Stadium ,which was acknowledged,by far too large an allocation of 15k.in that end ,compounded by a single tunnel into that central section with no means of filtering out sideways
    2.The operation on the day lead by chief Inspector Duckenfield was inadequate ,went against previous seasons proceedure,and as rightly mentioned could easily have been us ,anyone who was in that end in 87 knows how potentially lethal it was.
     
  7. jimmyhillsfanclub

    jimmyhillsfanclub Well-Known Member

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    Marty....I suggest you also read & learn something before spouting drivel.....
     
  8. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Irrespective of how many 'ticketless scousers' were there-the root cause for Hillsborough lay at the feet of the policemen of the time who jumped to their usual prejudices (still common enough today), about football fans. The lies, slander, and attempted cover ups by those involved are what have given everyone a just reason to be angry. That the deaths happened at all is a tragedy, but for it to take this long for the truth to come out is another matter entirely.
     
  9. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    Wingy, we were actually in the other end in the semi-final, the "home" end, but I went in that end too many times in the 80s. You forget how horrible those fences were. We even had them at HR, didn't we?

    Those who blame the fans either don't know their facts or they are simply idiots.

     
  10. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    I can read adequetly thank you JHFC and I have seen and read much before today. One report that exonerates them does not cloud my mind or the past 23 years. It is an undisputed fact that many Liverpool fans (by their own admission) travelled right accross Europe without tickets and to hell with the consequences, including some to that game. That day, it was a combination of many things that resulted in this tragedy (admittedly the largest blame laying at the decision to open the gate by the police which I haven't questionned) and not for one minute am I blaming those who died in any way for what happened, but to suggest that other Liverpool fans played no part at all in this is at best naive.

    And Torchy, please stick to arguing points rather than hurling insults. It doesn't suit you and detracts from any valid point that you are trying to make. As always there are two sides to most stories but it seems anyone who disagrees with yours is an idiot.
     
  11. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    Well, you better contact the Hillsborough Independent Panel then and tell them you have evidence that it was the "Scousers that done it".

    Anyone who can still blame the fans after a three year independent review which looked at 400,000 documents in still an idiot in my few.

     
  12. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    That last word was meant to be "view", but maybe I should have finished it "...in my few brain cells". Who knows?
     
  13. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    Do you really think in light of all of this that without hard evidence which clearly won't be available that any inquiry or government would dare to accuse the fans of being even the remotest bit responsible? I'm sure you were around then, I'm sure you will have encountered the 'friendly' Liverpool support to know exactly what they are or were about in the 80's and then I guess you belive that they travelled without tickets to all games but with the one exception of this particular game where they all behaved impeccably. Yep that would be it!
     
  14. Houchens Head

    Houchens Head Fairly well known member from Malvern

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    I was at the Bestival last week. There were loads of people without tickets. Every day I went, I was approached by music fans asking for "spare" tickets. My point is, that whenever there is an event of major interest, there will ALWAYS be those fans who travel to the venue in the hope of obtaining a last minute ticket, so I find it totally unfair to lay any blame on those fans who were simply there to soak up the atmosphere and hopefully obtain a ticket. The actual fault lay with the stupid erected fences, the stewards who herded fans off the pitch who were trying to escape the carnage and the police for lying through their teeth and trying to cover things up for the last 23 years!
     
  15. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    The stewards were doing their job and were probably used to people shouting aggressively at them in close quarters week after week. For the first few minutes I seem to recall that the media thought it was a pitch invasion by Liverpool fans so I think we can excuse the stewards behaviour who were only following orders.

    I also don't believe that those close to the gates when they opened were there to soak up the atmosphere. Some undoubtedly will have been doing and I can understand that but just that they would have been someway back from the turnstiles imo.

    With regards to the police and the cover up, that is totally wrong and I think we all agree on that, but that is not the point we are in discussion about.
     
  16. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    The difference is Rob that the vast majority of Liverpool fans hold their hands up over Heysel and a lot of the wrongdoers from then have since expressed remorse about it (and the club itself did when they played Juventus a few years back). The police of the time have persistently denied wrongdoing, cover ups have taken place, and libellous media went unpunished. It is not so much the incident itself, but all of this behaviour afterwards, that deserves the flak.
     
  17. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    A reminder of the main points:
    The panel reported that South Yorkshire police amended statements to remove negative comments about the policing operation
    The tragedy was not caused by alcohol-fuelled ticketless fans
    41 people, declared dead at 15:15 by the coroner, had the potential to survive
    The Sun's source for their expose "The Truth" came from a Sheffield news agency and a local MP, who were fed information by South Yorkshire police.
     
  18. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    Rob I respect your right to your oppinion ,but your explanation in this post exposes your prejudices .Those fans on that day were let down by the planners and authorities responsible for law and safety and i'll reiterate that whoever was in that end that day ,be it Forrest or us two years earlier for the QF would have had to live with the same consiquences,and yes I'm all too aware of how the scouse fans could behave .
     
  19. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    Again BSB, I totally agree with all of that and it is completely wrong. That isn't in dispute. What is in dispute imo is that there were other factors aswell that nobody wants to talk about any longer and pretend that they didn't happen.
     
  20. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    No one is saying that ticketless fans never turned up. They turn up at every major event as HH said. However, the report says that those ticketless fans were not a factor in the tragedy. That's the point.

     
  21. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    I would like to think my views are more balanced than polarised simply because tehy are robbing thieving scallies, but who knows. There have been many documenteries in the preceeding years that have suggested vastly different accounts and take them as a whole and accept there is some truth in most angles I would think is more balanced and likely to be more accurate, but again we agree to disagree I guess.

    Anyhow, meeting now so back in a while to review the fireworks :)
     
  22. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Which isn't an unreasonable opinion to have-and I would argue that trying to exclusively identify culprits for the incident itself will not achieve anything and it won't bring the deceased back. The decades of all the wrongdoing I've already referred to is far more concerning and unforgiveable-and we're all in agreement there.
     
  23. Houchens Head

    Houchens Head Fairly well known member from Malvern

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    Rob, I just think you are totally anti-Liverpool. I just cannot believe some of the stuff you are spouting. You will not change my opinion of what REALLY happened on that day. I'm just happy for all those fantastic Liverpool people who never gave up for 23 YEARS until they finally got the truth. People of Liverpool are NOT all "robbing, theiving scallies" as you call them. I find this offensive and think you should retract this comment.
     
  24. Otis

    Otis Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how anyone can argue with that. They were not guilty.That is 23 years of info from every angle and every source.

    Not the fans fault. Impossible to argue otherwise.
     
  25. sw88

    sw88 Chief Commentator!

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    Shocking revelations today! I don't know how the people in charge at the time could live with themselves and get away with it for this long.

    Fair play to the families who have fought this for so long and got the result we have all seen today!
     
  26. Covstu

    Covstu Well-Known Member

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    I think this goes to show the power that some people have to cover up fuck ups whe they really count. There were major failures in health and safety for the ground which come to light also, police checking criminal records of the dead to try and incriminate them further which is absolutely shocking. I hope they find and prosecute the people responsible.
     
  27. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    One report isn't going to change my view of what I REALLY believe either. I am far from anti-Liverpool and that comment was clearly meant tongue in cheek, hence the endearing term of scally as opposed to something much stronger, but my stance remains that today's report imo only confirms what we already knew that there was a mass cover up and I also won't also be swayed on the view that some of the fans were totally blameless and for having that opinion it would be hypocritical for me to apologise. However, my intention was never to offend so if I have then for that part I truely apologise.
     
  28. Bobby Firenze

    Bobby Firenze New Member

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    So what is going to change your point of view, Rob? An independent enquiry that completely absolves blame to the 'scallies' after considering and examining 400,000 pieces of information or your own gut feeling?
     
  29. rob9872

    rob9872 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing Bobby. It is an opinion. Mine may differ from yours, but I've never changed an opinion because someone thought I should. As I wasn't there and we can't go back in time to see, then its unlikely my viewpoint will change.

    It was 20 years after the Birmingham 6 were cleared and the court decided that they were wrongly imprisoned - am I now supposed to believe they were innocent too?
     
  30. Desperados

    Desperados New Member

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    There has clearly been a number of cover ups that up to recently have worked (for many! Now things are unraveling. I am sure at the time if they had more foundation to blame the fans they would have, with specific recorded evidence, but they couldn’t! Read the report, I am 1/2 through and find some of it shocking and a lot disgraceful, one stand out at the start is blood testing the dead for alcohol levels…disgusting and irrelevant! I was 11 at the time it happened and like a lot of others, formed an opinion wrongly, on the reports/stories that have came out at the time and the next few years. Truly disturbing.
     
  31. Houchens Head

    Houchens Head Fairly well known member from Malvern

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    Suffice to say Rob, I knew two of the "Birmingham Six". Believe me, they were all innocent!!!! Fuck me Pal. I'd hate to have you on any jury! Guilty verdict before any trial even started!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  32. Brighton Sky Blue

    Brighton Sky Blue Well-Known Member

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    Since there was very strong forensic evidence to support them I probably would.
     
  33. Otis

    Otis Well-Known Member

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    Of course they were innocent.

    As for the Hillsborough thing, I can't believe The Sun today. Front page, 'The Real Truth.' Lots of sub headlines, but nowhere on the front page does it say 'Sorry.'

    The front page headline should have been 'Sorry' and nothing else.
     
  34. torchomatic

    torchomatic Well-Known Member

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    No one has said you should change your opinion because they think you should agree with them. However, don't you think you could reconsider when faced with the tremendous weight of evidence that contradicts that opinion?

     
  35. Macca

    Macca Well-Known Member

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    Was in the leppings lane in 87. Very scary but our order and level heads kept things safe
     

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