George Floyd (7 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Jun 18, 2020

Grendel said:
This shows as a proportion or population you are more likely to go to university now if your black than white doesn’t it?

Entry rates into higher education

Firstly, no it doesn’t because it’s only talking about people from state education, not people from private and state education combined. Secondly it follows the trend of every demographic that you’re chances of going to university has increased regardless of ethnicity. It also doesn’t demonstrate opportunity once you’ve left education based on ethnicity which is another issue again.
(Edit) also worth pointing out that the number of people going to university from state schools has stalled over the last few years.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
But we've said m

Skybluefaz said:
You think it is a matter of choice rather than the lack of opportunity to take that particular path, or even believe that path is an option?

Perhaps in the UK many choose not to. Perhaps in the UK they don't have the opportunity. Perhaps its both. Do you know ?
No one in my family went into law. My brothers and sisters weren't interested. That's just the way it was. I've never really done a study on it.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
I haven't said that though have I.

I can't remember saying you did?

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
I can't remember saying you did?

So why aim that at me?

skybluetony176 · Jun 18, 2020

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Lots of deprived areas in the UK are not specifically black areas.

I never said there wasn’t.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jun 18, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I am aiming that at ADM who seems to think that its a lifestyle choice to not want to make progress in the world, as a result of just having different priorities.

Bullshit. Its a lifestyle choice is it ? They're your words not mine, do gooder.

Grendel · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
This discussion is from Tony saying about the inequality in the education system though? Hence I asked what opportunity a black kid in my daughter's class has different to a white kid while at school.

I have been told I am naive and that I am denying racism happens but I still haven't been told an answer.

White oriole from the lowest social class are the most disadvantaged - all data and studies tell you that - he’s confusing racism with social class

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
So why aim that at me?

I pointed out the reason why I was asking questions about education. For asking those I have been told I am naive and denying racism exists.

Any wonder why people are "naive" when instead of having a proper discussion, shit like that gets thrown about because they don't seem to know what they are on about?

I am happy to say I am naive, I am not trying to be an expert I am just asking questions to learn more. I am not denying racism exists, I am trying to find out WHERE and HOW it exists most.

Ring Of Steel · Jun 18, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I am aiming that at ADM who seems to think that its a lifestyle choice to not want to make progress in the world, as a result of just having different priorities.

The low entrants thing is a myth, but what is a fact is that there is a significant gap in attainment levels, likelihood of dropping out etc

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/po...ttainment-uk-universities-closing-the-gap.pdf

Ring Of Steel · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
I pointed out the reason why I was asking questions about education. For asking those I have been told I am naive and denying racism exists.

Any wonder why people are "naive" when instead of having a proper discussion, shit like that gets thrown about because they don't seem to know what they are on about?

I would indeed suggest that ADM saying that people just have different priorities is a tad naive.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

Grendel said:
White oriole from the lowest social class are the most disadvantaged - all data and studies tell you that - he’s confusing racism with social class

This seems to be the issue, there's a difference between social class and race.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I would indeed suggest that ADM saying that people just have different priorities is a tad naive.

So instead of saying "you are naive", discuss it and disprove it. There's no doubt that some asian communities drum a different priority into their kids, both with life and education. It isn't naive or racist to say that, is it?

It's the kind of thing that needs to be discussed so people can learn.

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 18, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
What people also need to recognise is what their children are currently experiencing in school isn’t a reflection on the opportunity to become a judge now. For instance, I think you can become a Magistrate at 18 IIRC but the vast majority are over 30 and even over 50. So these people were most likely in the educational system 20,30,40 years ago, a very different time. If you want to be a judge at a higher level you need the relevant law qualifications and a certain amount of experience working in law so past being a magistrate the opportunity diminishes again.

A magistrate is a voluntary position that requires no qualifications. The issue is that because it's voluntary, it needs people who can afford to devote the time to it. That means people who either have the means to be self-sufficient, or are in jobs that are flexible wrt taking time off, along with flexibility wrt childcare etc. There are also cultural issues regarding representation and how the establishment is perceived. There have been a lot of efforts over recent years to try and address the balance and make it more representative but, until the intangible barriers are broken down, it's always going to be a challenge. Add to that the closure of local courts (Warwickshire is now covered by Nuneaton, Leamington, and Coventry) then there's further to travel to sit, meaning more time taken out of the day, accentuating those issues.

skybluetony176 · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
This seems to be the issue, there's a difference between social class and race.

There’s also a correlation between the two though.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jun 18, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I would indeed suggest that ADM saying that people just have different priorities is a tad naive.

Nick pointed out that Asian kids seem to do better than the rest. Why is that ? Their parents might prioritise that their kids' education is of more importance than my parents may have.
Its extremely naive of you to assume that priorities are not the same the world over.

Ring Of Steel · Jun 18, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
There’s also a correlation between the two though.

They are intertwined.

RegTheDonk · Jun 18, 2020

Best way forward is when applying for a job, a course, further education - you are just issued an application number and are not required to give your name, age, gender, race, faith, ethicity on the application form (unless there is a health and safety requirement). You are soley judged on your qualifications and experience. I'd even suggest that those that make the shortlist are interviewed by a 3rd, independent but professional party, and provide a transcript and honest report of the candidate. That removes all unconcious bias and the best person gets the job.

Grendel · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
This seems to be the issue, there's a difference between social class and race.

Otherwise people are in effect saying that there is systemic racism in education

You could end this inequality very easily. You could end the notions comprehensive schools are not essentially selective by removing catchment areas and just sending children randomly to the schools across the city

It would be interest to see if anyone would object to that

Ring Of Steel · Jun 18, 2020

RegTheDonk said:
Best way forward is when applying for a job, a course, further education - you are just issued an application number and are not required to give your name, age, gender, race, faith, ethicity on the application form. You are soley judged on your qualifications and experience. I'd even suggest that those that make the shortlist are interviewed by a 3rd, independent but professional party, and provide a transcript and honest report of the candidate. That removes all unconcious bias and the best person gets the job.

How different is that to how it works now, in general?

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 18, 2020

Grendel said:
Otherwise people are in effect saying that there is systemic racism in education

You could end this inequality very easily. You could end the notions comprehensive schools are not essentially selective by removing catchment areas and just sending children randomly to the schools across the city

It would be interest to see if anyone would object to that

It'd be an interesting social experiment. You'd have to increase funding for transport etc. while you were at it.

What it doesn't take away is the structural dispositions and respective subcultural capital(s? clumsy phrasing, but time is brief!) of individuals, and how that affects their life choices and how everybody in society meshes together.

Skybluefaz · Jun 18, 2020

Alan Dugdales Moustache said:
Perhaps in the UK many choose not to. Perhaps in the UK they don't have the opportunity. Perhaps its both. Do you know ?
No one in my family went into law. My brothers and sisters weren't interested. That's just the way it was. I've never really done a study on it.

I'd say it's more of a social mobility issue. Which is not just a black problem. I haven't conducted a study on it. Getting upset at David Lammy and suggesting it's down to choice seems weird though.

Ring Of Steel · Jun 18, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
I'd say it's more of a social mobility issue. Which is not just a black problem. I haven't conducted a study on it. Getting upset at David Lammy and suggesting it's down to choice seems weird though.

Sums it up really

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
How different is that to how it works now, in general?

You put your name on the application and a person with a "white" sounding name takes on average 9 applications before being asked to come in for an interview and a person with a "BAME" name takes 16 applications.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
There’s also a correlation between the two though.

In what way?

Can you answer about the education stuff?

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
You put your name on the application and a person with a "white" sounding name takes on average 9 applications before being asked to come in for an interview and a person with a "BAME" name takes 16 applications.

So the racism is with people hiring for jobs?

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Skybluefaz said:
I'd say it's more of a social mobility issue. Which is not just a black problem. I haven't conducted a study on it. Getting upset at David Lammy and suggesting it's down to choice seems weird though.

ADM is doubly weird because he says maybe black people don't want to be lawyers when Lammy is talking about the prospects of black people who are already lawyers.

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
So the racism is with people hiring for jobs?

Seems that way, here's a bbc report with a link to another study that shows this:

Why your name matters in the search for a job

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
ADM is doubly weird because he says maybe black people don't want to be lawyers when Lammy is talking about the prospects of black people who are already lawyers.

So the issue is "old boys clubs" in particular jobs like law, MPs where it's the jolly old white men who follow on from their dads and their dads before them.

Again, is that skin colour or is it class?

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
You put your name on the application and a person with a "white" sounding name takes on average 9 applications before being asked to come in for an interview and a person with a "BAME" name takes 16 applications.

Are they applying for a job in New Cross or Nantwich ? One's predominantly black and one is white, before you ask.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Seems that way, here's a bbc report with a link to another study that shows this:

Why your name matters in the search for a job

So this is what needs to be looked into then, this is what needs to be discussed and raised.

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
So the issue is "old boys clubs" in particular jobs like law, MPs where it's the jolly old white men who follow on from their dads and their dads before them.

Again, is that skin colour or is it class?

White lawyers are being asked to be judges regardless of their perceived social status but black lawyers aren't so no it's not about "old boys clubs"

Grendel · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
So the racism is with people hiring for jobs?

As I said once one nonsense argument is defeated others debates of a more anecdotal nature are quickly bought in

skybluetony176 · Jun 18, 2020

Grendel said:
Otherwise people are in effect saying that there is systemic racism in education

You could end this inequality very easily. You could end the notions comprehensive schools are not essentially selective by removing catchment areas and just sending children randomly to the schools across the city

It would be interest to see if anyone would object to that

You’ve pretty much just described the school system there. Catchment area doesn’t mean a fat lot anymore, unless it’s an underfunded, failing school in a deprived area that no one is trying to get its kids into. We moved a few years ago and the people we sold our house too brought it because it was in the catchment for Ashlawn, within a year it was out the catchment, our new house remained in the catchment despite being literally just down the road. Our eldest got into Ashlawn and started with kids from not just all over the town but kids who don’t live in Rugby and kids that don’t even live in Warwickshire. Two years later our youngest is going up to high school and again the catchment has changed, again our house is no longer in the catchment (I can walk to Ashlawn with a dodgy knee in 4 minutes flat) and my youngest’s got in on the basis of sibling already at school. Schools, especially high schools are picking and choosing more and more who they accept. Catchment areas are becoming a thing of the past.

Nick · Jun 18, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
You’ve pretty much just described the school system there. Catchment area doesn’t mean a fat lot anymore, unless it’s an underfunded, failing school in a deprived area that no one is trying to get its kids into. We moved a few years ago and the people we sold our house too brought it because it was in the catchment for Ashlawn, within a year it was out the catchment, our new house remained in the catchment despite being literally just down the road. Our eldest got into Ashlawn and started with kids from not just all over the town but kids who don’t live in Rugby and kids that don’t even live in Warwickshire. Two years later our youngest is going up to high school and again the catchment has changed, again our house is no longer in the catchment (I can walk to Ashlawn with a dodgy knee in 4 minutes flat) and my youngest’s got in on the basis of sibling already at school. Schools, especially high schools are picking and choosing more and more who they accept. Catchment areas are becoming a thing of the past.

Yet you still haven't explained 2 of the best schools in Coventry being in deprived areas and a high BAME percentage of pupils?

It's not all about skin colour. I might be privileged that I bought a house and have a mortgage, however somebody placed by the council with no job has access to a better school than me regardless of skin colour.

David O'Day · Jun 18, 2020

Nick said:
So this is what needs to be looked into then, this is what needs to be discussed and raised.

It's a surprising and confusing situation as they jobs there were applying for are jobs such as shop assistants.

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