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General Election 2019 thread (4 Viewers)

  • Thread starter Philosoraptor
  • Start date Oct 29, 2019
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Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,576
Astute said:
Did you see how many voted remain in Scotland?
Click to expand...

When the Labour Party came up to Scotland by train to put their voice to the Scottish Independence vote they needed to take a short walk from the train station to the place they were all assembling at.

A couple of people in a rickshaw took them on.

Makes for a beautiful few minutes of viewing.

I wonder why Labour lost Glasgow.

 

SkyBlueDom26

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,577
General election: Conservatives enjoy 14-point lead over Labour - poll

Fucking hell, labour need to up their game
 
Reactions: westcountry_skyblue

tommydazzle

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,578
Obviously not scientific but I'm getting the impression from Leave voters I know that quite a few are not going to bother voting after feeling disenfranchised. This could be a significant factor if the turnout is low. On the other hand, I worked at the polling station for the last two elections and what was very noticeable was the disappointingly small number of younger voters which could be significant if repeated for this G.E.

All makes it hard to call and the polls about as reliable as my observations!
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,579
What I don't get is that I keep hearing public interviewed on TV blaming Labour and the Lib Dems for blocking Brexit.

They are simply ignoring the fact that a fair number of Tories have also voted against deals.
 
Reactions: bezzer and Sick Boy

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,580
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I also like the theory of experience but the main way they get that experience is by following party lines so they keep getting selected in easy-win seats so when they eventually move up to the Lords they're just a party stooge. So it is still far too party politics and cronies in the upper chamber IMO.

When they do white papers etc they do often bring in experts to work on it (tsars) but the problem is the government can just ignore their advice despite the evidence and knowledge they bring based on their own dogma. Remember the drug tsar who said drugs should be legalised, taxed etc. Very sensible, evidence based, policy recommendation. But that didn't fit in with the 'War on Drugs' mantra so they just tried to discredit him and ignored his proposals.

It is the bit of my plan that I would like to improve - how to get actual expertise in the areas that are being legislated on rather than party politics. Personally I think it should be you can't chair a committee/be Minister/Secretary unless you have expertise in the area it covers but then those being chosen will still be party affiliated and thus at risk of following the party line. Ccan you imagine a company employing someone with no background in finance and economics as their Finance Executive? But we do it all the time with the Chancellor as the job is seen as a 'reward' for loyalty to the PM and get their name in the hat as a potential successor.

Even moving to a grandee/crony list on a PV vote for the Lords would be quite a stretch to get politicians to agree to as it reduces their power. To do it so they are largely removed in favour of actual expertise, despite how sensible that would be, would be way too much for them to agree to from where we are now. It may only be gradual erosion but it may undermine the cliff to lead to a more drastic collapse later.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah it’s very much “If I ruled the world” territory. But a man can dream. The lack of knowledge about the most basic stuff from those that lead the country is truly concerning. Worse is the half baked understanding of services like health and education because they’ve been service users at some point. At least with technology they accept they know nothing and let lobbyists write policy.

Worry with independent experts picked by politicians like we have now with advisors is they tend to pick the “expert” they know will tell them what they want. Needs to be a way for genuine expertise to get into the process.

Another pipe dream was making Secretaries of State directly elected and giving voters with some level of expert knowledge (trade association membership or a degree? I dunno) double votes on that post. So teachers votes for education secretary count double as do police officer votes for HS. Completely unworkable in reality (do I get a teacher vote as I hold a PGCE even though I haven’t taught for two and a half years?).

Overall I do still think the root problem isn’t the structures of power though, rather the selection process and withdrawal of politics from most people’s daily lives now unions barely exist. What’s the route for someone in industry to get elected other than being a local party weirdo for ten years?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,581
Otis said:
What I don't get is that I keep hearing public interviewed on TV blaming Labour and the Lib Dems for blocking Brexit.

They are simply ignoring the fact that a fair number of Tories have also voted against deals.
Click to expand...

Propaganda works.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,582
shmmeee said:
Propaganda works.
Click to expand...

Lol it does as proved by your slavish worship of the council
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,583
Boris having a go at residents in flood hit areas. It’s not a national emergency apparently, it’s the residents fault for not listening to the emergency services. Nothing to do with pumps not being supplied when requested etc because it’s not a national emergency.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,584
SkyBlueDom26 said:
General election: Conservatives enjoy 14-point lead over Labour - poll
Click to expand...
I think the last few results have shown us trusting the polls is a dangerous game.
Conservatives' lead over Labour narrows slightly - Survation poll
 
Reactions: SkyBlueDom26 and stupot07

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,585
The Lib Dem candidate for Canterbury has apparently withdrawn from the Labour marginal and the Lib Dem’s aren’t replacing him.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,586
skybluetony176 said:
The Lib Dem candidate for Canterbury has apparently withdrawn from the Labour marginal and the Lib Dem’s aren’t replacing him.
Click to expand...

This is sensible. Labour should reciprocate in Richmond.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,587
skybluetony176 said:
The Lib Dem candidate for Canterbury has apparently withdrawn from the Labour marginal and the Lib Dem’s aren’t replacing him.
Click to expand...
Pulled out himself or been pulled out by the party?
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,588
Grendel said:
The pure maths make it virtually impossible for labour as I assume it’s not going to be able to recover its position in Scotland

Conservatives have a chance. They’d have to hold most of the seats out of Scotland (those will go) and make the ground lost in Scotland and more. In effect they have 298 and 13 in Scotland so 285 in reality but the defector sears will go back to them.

They need 320 it’s a big ask
Click to expand...
But a potential SNP/Lab coalition is probably just as likely - the Tories will probably lose most of the Scotland seats.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,589
Ian1779 said:
This is sensible. Labour should reciprocate in Richmond.
Click to expand...
There’s possibly a few seats where this could happen on a local agreement rather than a national pact between Labour, Greens and the Lib Dem’s.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,590
chiefdave said:
Pulled out himself or been pulled out by the party?
Click to expand...
Pulled out himself I gather but the local party has agreed not to replace him so there seems to be a local agreement in place.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,591
skybluetony176 said:
There’s possibly a few seats where this could happen on a local agreement rather than a national pact between Labour, Greens and the Lib Dem’s.
Click to expand...
Exactly - this is why they should both pull out of Brighton Pavillion. Some local agreements in 20 or so ‘key’ seats and then the dynamic changes.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,592
Otis said:
What I don't get is that I keep hearing public interviewed on TV blaming Labour and the Lib Dems for blocking Brexit.

They are simply ignoring the fact that a fair number of Tories have also voted against deals.
Click to expand...
Labour and the Lib Dems have put it across as stop any Brexit deal. The Tories have put it across as accept it. A few Labour went for leave and a few Tories went for remain. It has been mainly following party orders or risk getting at least demoted.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,593
chiefdave said:
I think the last few results have shown us trusting the polls is a dangerous game.
Conservatives' lead over Labour narrows slightly - Survation poll
Click to expand...
I normally bet against the favourite and have won a fair bit in recent years.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,594
Ian1779 said:
But a potential SNP/Lab coalition is probably just as likely - the Tories will probably lose most of the Scotland seats.
Click to expand...

Which will happen if labour allow a referendum to Scotland regardless of it going against the agreement made last time - so much for the union - also I assume but wound mean they are excluded from a second referendum for Brexit?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,595
Ian1779 said:
Exactly - this is why they should both pull out of Brighton Pavillion. Some local agreements in 20 or so ‘key’ seats and then the dynamic changes.
Click to expand...
So you won't complain about where Farage has someone running or doesn't?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,596
Ian1779 said:
Exactly - this is why they should both pull out of Brighton Pavillion. Some local agreements in 20 or so ‘key’ seats and then the dynamic changes.
Click to expand...
Labour pulling out of Richmond would be another one.
 
Reactions: Ian1779

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,597
Apparently Lib Dem’s are now saying that they will field a new candidate in Canterbury. Shame really.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,598
Astute said:
I normally bet against the favourite and have won a fair bit in recent years.
Click to expand...

People always root for the underdog. Also, as we know in sports, go into a competition with a slight disadvantage will make you work harder to achieve your objectives.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,599
skybluetony176 said:
Boris having a go at residents in flood hit areas. It’s not a national emergency apparently, it’s the residents fault for not listening to the emergency services. Nothing to do with pumps not being supplied when requested etc because it’s not a national emergency.
Click to expand...

Of course it's not a national emergency - it's not in the SE. Make it london and billions would be found to defend them, esp if they were rich peoples homes.

So now it's the residents fault for NOT listening to the emergency services. Wasn't it the residents fault at Grenfell because they DID listen to the emergency services rather than following 'common sense'?

Not sure what the emergency services were going to tell them to change the outcome anyway. The contempt the man shows for anyone he considers below him (which is almost everyone) is staggering. But a bit of bluster, waffle and wild gesticulation with the messy hair and they'll vote for him, so no wonder really. I really do try not to take a personal dislike to individuals to focus on policy but he really does make it so hard not to. Vile individual.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,600
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Of course it's not a national emergency - it's not in the SE. Make it london and billions would be found to defend them, esp if they were rich peoples homes.

So now it's the residents fault for NOT listening to the emergency services. Wasn't it the residents fault at Grenfell because they DID listen to the emergency services rather than following 'common sense'?

Not sure what the emergency services were going to tell them to change the outcome anyway. The contempt the man shows for anyone he considers below him (which is almost everyone) is staggering. But a bit of bluster, waffle and wild gesticulation with the messy hair and they'll vote for him, so no wonder really. I really do try not to take a personal dislike to individuals to focus on policy but he really does make it so hard not to. Vile individual.
Click to expand...
The real irony seems to be that no one was listening to the local emergency services last week when they said that they needed emergency pumps to deal with the pending emergency.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,601
shmmeee said:
Oh yeah it’s very much “If I ruled the world” territory. But a man can dream. The lack of knowledge about the most basic stuff from those that lead the country is truly concerning. Worse is the half baked understanding of services like health and education because they’ve been service users at some point. At least with technology they accept they know nothing and let lobbyists write policy.

Worry with independent experts picked by politicians like we have now with advisors is they tend to pick the “expert” they know will tell them what they want. Needs to be a way for genuine expertise to get into the process.

Another pipe dream was making Secretaries of State directly elected and giving voters with some level of expert knowledge (trade association membership or a degree? I dunno) double votes on that post. So teachers votes for education secretary count double as do police officer votes for HS. Completely unworkable in reality (do I get a teacher vote as I hold a PGCE even though I haven’t taught for two and a half years?).

Overall I do still think the root problem isn’t the structures of power though, rather the selection process and withdrawal of politics from most people’s daily lives now unions barely exist. What’s the route for someone in industry to get elected other than being a local party weirdo for ten years?
Click to expand...

Rather than a double vote you have to put your vote into a machine and answer a multiple choice question or two on the issues/manifestos. If you get them wrong your vote is shredded. So those who aren't engaged in the process get less of a say than those that do engage.
 
W

westcountry_skyblue

Guest
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,602
Astute said:
I normally bet against the favourite and have won a fair bit in recent years.
Click to expand...
I won a fair bit on leave in 2016,13/2 it was 20 mins before the polls shut.
Then as soon as the BBC announced it was gonna be close just after 10pm leave came in to 5/2.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,603
westcountry_skyblue said:
I won a fair bit on leave in 2016,13/2 it was 20 mins before the polls shut.
Then as soon as the BBC announced it was gonna be close just after 10pm leave came in to 5/2.
Click to expand...
I won a fair bit too, but mine simply on a price I felt was wrong. Opinion polling pointed towards remain but nobody knew the turnout, the real expectation or had any historical information to base on yet in a 2 horse race one was trading consistently at 9/2. I backed more in hope than any expectation having felt it was a coin toss and simply lumping on the value.
 
Reactions: westcountry_skyblue

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,604
Meanwhile, another outstanding candidate chosen.

 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,605
Philosorapter said:
Meanwhile, another outstanding candidate chosen.

Click to expand...
Almost like they keep trying to give eachother a sporting chance. So many mistakes on every side and we've only just reached final candidate selection. Undoubtedly there will be more dirt dug up over the coming weeks but it's not a very clever way to start.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,606
Astute said:
So you won't complain about where Farage has someone running or doesn't?
Click to expand...

Not really... I merely think that the Brexit party will not have the same impact as people make out. I think they’ve got their strategy a bit skewiff.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,607
Looks like the fracking ban is a temporary hoax for votes Tories in fracking ban U-turn as firms 'could be allowed to drill for shale gas'
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,608
skybluetony176 said:
Boris having a go at residents in flood hit areas. It’s not a national emergency apparently, it’s the residents fault for not listening to the emergency services. Nothing to do with pumps not being supplied when requested etc because it’s not a national emergency.
Click to expand...
Don’t listen then listen. I do wish they’d make up their minds about us common trash
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,609
rob9872 said:
Almost like they keep trying to give eachother a sporting chance. So many mistakes on every side and we've only just reached final candidate selection. Undoubtedly there will be more dirt dug up over the coming weeks but it's not a very clever way to start.
Click to expand...
When I was a kid the best MP's made it to the top. If it is still the same we are in trouble.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Nov 12, 2019
  • #1,610
Ian1779 said:
Not really... I merely think that the Brexit party will not have the same impact as people make out. I think they’ve got their strategy a bit skewiff.
Click to expand...
You mean they should go for the close seats and take votes away from the Tories?

There is a difference between what you want and what they want.
 
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