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General Election 2019 thread (3 Viewers)

  • Thread starter Philosoraptor
  • Start date Oct 29, 2019
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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #316
CCFCSteve said:
G7 growth rates compared to UK.

UK economic growth within the G7

was Keynes around when there was a global financial crisis caused by a sub prime lending which nearly bust a significant
number of banks (that we’re holding all of our money) ?!

ps As I mentioned earlier investing in infrastructure projects etc is sensible during a normal recession. I also mentioned the fact that if you are willing to encourage significant borrowing during recession, how can you condone significant borrowing during strong growth periods ?! When would you ever pay anything back ?!
Click to expand...

We did pay money back under Labour. I’ve already proved that.

Personally, no I don’t mind running a small deficit forever as long as our credit rating and growth are OK. Money is a tool, the government needs to use its tools to ensure the economy works.

That’s not Labour policy though. The 2017 manifesto had a plan for surplus.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #317
CCFCSteve said:
G7 growth rates compared to UK (I suppose the G7s performance was the Tories fault)

UK economic growth within the G7

Also, was Keynes around when there was a global financial crisis caused by a sub prime lending which nearly bust a significant
number of banks (that we’re holding all of our money) ?!

ps As I mentioned earlier investing in infrastructure projects etc is sensible during a normal recession. I also mentioned the fact that if you are willing to encourage significant borrowing during recession, how can you condone significant borrowing during strong growth periods ?! When would you ever pay anything back ?!
Click to expand...
You are wasting your time. Evidence isn't accepted on here if it doesn't agree with what certain people say.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #318
Astute said:
I was saying to show what evidence I came out with was wrong. And I say it yet again.

You just make comments and accusations though.
Click to expand...

 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #319
shmmeee said:
Literally posted graphs from the ONS in my replies dude. Try harder.
Click to expand...

Stop posting left wing think tank discredited shite as reality “dude” try a lot harder
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #320
shmmeee said:
Literally posted graphs from the ONS in my replies dude. Try harder.
Click to expand...
And for about the 7th time. What evidence did I link that was wrong like you accused me of?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #321
CCFCSteve said:
G7 growth rates compared to UK (I suppose the G7s performance was the Tories fault)

UK economic growth within the G7

Also, was Keynes around when there was a global financial crisis caused by a sub prime lending which nearly bust a significant
number of banks (that we’re holding all of our money) ?!

ps As I mentioned earlier investing in infrastructure projects etc is sensible during a normal recession. I also mentioned the fact that if you are willing to encourage significant borrowing during recession, how can you condone significant borrowing during strong growth periods ?! When would you ever pay anything back ?!
Click to expand...

Why bother the blokes an idiot
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #322
shmmeee said:
Click to expand...
About right for you. A stuck recording when the truth proves you wrong.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #323
CCFCSteve said:
It was a worldwide financial ‘crisis’....labour had left nothing in reserve to deal with it and as I’ve said if there hadn’t been attempts to control public expenditure (which was by then out of control - see Liam Byrne ‘there’s no money left’) you could forget borrowing at sensible rates. This would had led to immediate and far deeper cuts (see Ireland and Greece)

what did you expect them to do in 2010 ? If you say spend their way out of it...I’ll give up now ; )
Click to expand...

Despite their being "no money left" which was a flippant comment that's been used by the Tories as some sort of hard evidence, when Labour left office Britain could borrow at record low rates and had its treble A rating. What happened to it?

There were numerous attempts to control public expenditure under new labour. The Gershon review was the biggest and that cut thousands and thousands of public sector jobs.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer and shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #324
CCFCSteve said:
G7 growth rates compared to UK (I suppose the G7s performance was the Tories fault)

UK economic growth within the G7

Also, was Keynes around when there was a global financial crisis caused by a sub prime lending which nearly bust a significant
number of banks (that we’re holding all of our money) ?!

ps As I mentioned earlier investing in infrastructure projects etc is sensible during a normal recession. I also mentioned the fact that if you are willing to encourage significant borrowing during recession, how can you condone significant borrowing during strong growth periods ?! When would you ever pay anything back ?!
Click to expand...

From your link:

The UK had one of the largest falls in economic output among the G7, and for the first few years recovered slowly.

Emphasis mine
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #325
Ps propaganda ? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

also useful to remind ourselves that Labour has drawn up similar significant cutting/austerity plans. Fair play to Byrne for holding his hands up though...shame many would rather sweep it under the carpet
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #326
Astute said:
What are you going
Click to expand...
CCFCSteve said:
G7 growth rates compared to UK (I suppose the G7s performance was the Tories fault)

UK economic growth within the G7

Also, was Keynes around when there was a global financial crisis caused by a sub prime lending which nearly bust a significant
number of banks (that we’re holding all of our money) ?!

ps As I mentioned earlier investing in infrastructure projects etc is sensible during a normal recession. I also mentioned the fact that if you are willing to encourage significant borrowing during recession, how can you condone significant borrowing during strong growth periods ?! When would you ever pay anything back ?!
Click to expand...

There's a book by political economist Mark Blyth called Austerity- the history of a dangerous idea.
There's a few interviews on YouTube with him on the subject which are worth a watch.
He's a clever guy and he's laid waste to a few of my opinions on various subjects in the past!
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #327
fernandopartridge said:
Despite their being "no money left" which was a flippant comment that's been used by the Tories as some sort of hard evidence, when Labour left office Britain could borrow at record low rates and had its treble A rating. What happened to it?

There were numerous attempts to control public expenditure under new labour. The Gershon review was the biggest and that cut thousands and thousands of public sector jobs.
Click to expand...
We can still borrow at record low rates. The rates are that low sometimes that we have to pay back less than we borrow when money doesn't look safe.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #328
shmmeee said:
From your link:

The UK had one of the largest falls in economic output among the G7, and for the first few years recovered slowly.

Emphasis mine
Click to expand...

come on shmmeee, you’re better than that. What do they say about 2013 - 2016 ?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #329
Astute said:
We can still borrow at record low rates. The rates are that low sometimes that we have to pay back less than we borrow when money doesn't look safe.
Click to expand...
Why aren't we doing it then? You're agreeing that its pure ideology
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #330
shmmeee said:
From your link:

The UK had one of the largest falls in economic output among the G7, and for the first few years recovered slowly.

Emphasis mine
Click to expand...

Dude you’ve quoted a discredited lCorbynomics fantasist theory as fact. It’s over for you
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #331
CCFCSteve said:
Ps propaganda ? ‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election
also useful to remind ourselves that Labour has drawn up similar significant cutting/austerity plans. Fair play to Byrne for holding his hands up though...shame many would rather sweep it under the carpet
Click to expand...

Again, from your own link:

Into my head came the phrase I’d used to negotiate all those massive savings with my colleagues: “I’m afraid there is no money.” I knew my successor’s job was tough. I guess I wanted to offer them a friendly word on their first day in one of government’s hardest jobs by honouring an old tradition that stretched back to Churchill in the 1930s and the Tory chancellor Reginald Maudling, who bounced down the steps of the Treasury in 1964 to tell Jim Callaghan: “Sorry to leave it in such a mess, old cock.”

So exactly what I said then.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #332
fernandopartridge said:
Despite their being "no money left" which was a flippant comment that's been used by the Tories as some sort of hard evidence, when Labour left office Britain could borrow at record low rates and had its treble A rating. What happened to it?

There were numerous attempts to control public expenditure under new labour. The Gershon review was the biggest and that cut thousands and thousands of public sector jobs.
Click to expand...

see Liam Byrne letter link below
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #333
fernandopartridge said:
Why aren't we doing it then? You're agreeing that its pure ideology
Click to expand...
We do with bonds. The rates constantly move.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #334
CCFCSteve said:
come on shmmeee, you’re better than that. What do they say about 2013 - 2016 ?
Click to expand...

Im not talking about that. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m talking about 2010-2012 when Osborne inherited a slowly recovering economy and nearly pushed us back into recession.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #335
shmmeee said:
Again, from your own link:

Into my head came the phrase I’d used to negotiate all those massive savings with my colleagues: “I’m afraid there is no money.” I knew my successor’s job was tough. I guess I wanted to offer them a friendly word on their first day in one of government’s hardest jobs by honouring an old tradition that stretched back to Churchill in the 1930s and the Tory chancellor Reginald Maudling, who bounced down the steps of the Treasury in 1964 to tell Jim Callaghan: “Sorry to leave it in such a mess, old cock.”

So exactly what I said then.
Click to expand...

The point remains the same, how he says he meant it is almost irrelevant (if you believe him). As I say it’s also interesting to remind ourselves of the significant cutting labour had also planned ! (Often forgotten)
 
Reactions: Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #336
shmmeee said:
Im not talking about that. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m talking about 2010-2012 when Osborne inherited a slowly recovering economy and nearly pushed us back into recession.
Click to expand...
How about my links you keep saying were wrong?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #337
shmmeee said:
Im not talking about that. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m talking about 2010-2012 when Osborne inherited a slowly recovering economy and nearly pushed us back into recession.
Click to expand...

oh mate is this another left wing think tank theory
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #338
CCFCSteve said:
Ps propaganda ? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

also useful to remind ourselves that Labour has drawn up similar significant cutting/austerity plans. Fair play to Byrne for holding his hands up though...shame many would rather sweep it under the carpet
Click to expand...
What's your point Steve? £40bn drop in tax receipts and you blame Labour for profligacy
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #339
shmmeee said:
Im not talking about that. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m talking about 2010-2012 when Osborne inherited a slowly recovering economy and nearly pushed us back into recession.
Click to expand...

As per above, Labour would’ve implemented the same/similar cuts as detailed in link
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #340
Astute said:
How about my links you keep saying were wrong?
Click to expand...

why bother - he’s an idiot
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #341
CCFCSteve said:
The point remains the same, how he says he meant it is almost irrelevant (if you believe him). As I say it’s also interesting to remind ourselves of the significant cutting labour had also planned ! (Often forgotten)
Click to expand...

It’s about where they’d cut and how fast though. This is what the IFS said at the time: Emergency budget 2010: George Osborne accused of cutting too hard

And he still cut corporation tax, which is ideological spending.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #342
fernandopartridge said:
What's your point Steve? £40bn drop in tax receipts and you blame Labour for profligacy
Click to expand...

No Fernando, you’ll need to read back. My point was that the Tories inherited a mess (I’ve acknowledged it was due to financial crisis ie not labours doing, but also said there was nothing in reserve following years of strong growth and no recession - labours problem)

The fact is Tories get blamed for that initial austerity when the fact is that labour were going to implement a similar plan. They could barely keep public sector going !!!
 
Reactions: Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #343
CCFCSteve said:
No Fernando, you’ll need to read back. My point was that the Tories inherited a mess (I’ve acknowledged it was due to financial crisis ie not labours doing, but also said there was nothing in reserve following years of strong growth and no recession - labours problem)

The fact is Tories get blamed for that initial austerity when the fact is that labour were going to implement a similar plan. They could barely keep public sector going !!!
Click to expand...
The problem you have here is some don't want to admit that Labour spend too much meaning we need austerity to stop our finances going totally out of control.

The problem is that the austerity years can be so bad that we do need to give a lot back to the public.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #344
CCFCSteve said:
No Fernando, you’ll need to read back. My point was that the Tories inherited a mess (I’ve acknowledged it was due to financial crisis ie not labours doing, but also said there was nothing in reserve following years of strong growth and no recession - labours problem)

The fact is Tories get blamed for that initial austerity when the fact is that labour were going to implement a similar plan. They could barely keep public sector going !!!
Click to expand...

From: https://www.ifs.org.uk/election/ebn_summary.pdf

The Labour government’s 2010 Budget set out the size of its planned tightening in each year. It aims to withdraw the temporary fiscal stimulus package this year, start tightening in 2011–12 and finish the job in 2016–17, with the pain front-loaded in the earlier years. The Liberal Democrats have informally endorsed this tightening profile.
 The Conservatives want to start tightening earlier and proceed more quickly. They plan an additional £6 billion tightening this year and would aim to get almost all the repair job done a year earlier than Labour and the Liberal Democrats in 2015–16.
 The Conservatives’ greater ambition would make a relatively modest difference to the long- term outlook for government borrowing and debt. The Conservative plans imply total borrowing of £604 billion over the next seven years, compared with £643 billion under Labour or the Liberal Democrats. Assuming no further change in borrowing beyond 2017–18, we project that the Conservative plans would return government debt below 40% of national income in 2031–32, the same year as it would under Labour or the Liberal Democrats.
 Differences between the parties are much more pronounced with regards to the composition of the tightening. Labour favours a 2:1 ratio of spending cuts to tax rises (£47 billion and
£24 billion, respectively), the Liberal Democrats a 21⁄2:1 ratio (£51 billion and £20 billion) and the Conservatives a 4:1 ratio (£57 billion and £14 billion). Measured as shares of national income, the Labour and Liberal Democrat plans would reduce public spending to a level last seen in 2004–05 and increase tax revenues to their highest since the peak of the late 1980s boom in 1989–90. The Conservatives would reduce total spending to the level seen in 2003–04 and increase revenues to the level seen in 2006–07.
 Measured as a share of national income and converting into 2010–11 terms, Labour has already put a £17 billion tax increase into the pipeline for the coming Parliament. We estimate that its goals for borrowing and the overall composition of the fiscal tightening would require it to announce further tax increases worth around £7 billion. The Conservatives have announced a £6 billion net tax cut on top of what is in the pipeline from Labour, but their goals would probably require them to reverse about half of it. The Liberal Democrats have announced a £3 billion tax increase on top of what is in the pipeline and would not need to do anything further. The rise in the tax burden by 2016–17 would be largest under Labour and lowest under the Conservatives, with the Liberal Democrats in the middle.
 Far more significant is the gap in the parties’ plans for reducing public spending. None has announced plans for significant cuts to social security spending and, without them, their plans would require deep cuts to spending on public services. Over the four years starting in April 2011, both Labour and the Liberal Democrats would need to deliver the deepest sustained cut to spending on public services since the four years from April 1976 to March 1980. Starting this year, the Conservative plans imply cuts to spending on public services that have not been delivered over any five-year period since the Second World War.
 Once we take into account their various pledges to protect spending in certain areas, in real terms the Conservatives would need to cut public services spending in their unprotected areas by £63.7 billion, Labour by £50.8 billion and the Liberal Democrats by £46.5 billion between April 2011 and March 2015. Of these, the Conservatives have announced measures that would bring about 17.7% of the total cuts they need, leaving a shortfall of £52.4 billion. Labour has announced measures that would bring about 13.1% of what it would need, leaving a shortfall of £44.1 billion. The Liberal Democrats have announced measures that would bring about 25.9% of what they would need, leaving a shortfall of £34.5 billion.
Click to expand...

The tax rises to cuts ratio is important there as is the pace. The Tories were planning much deeper cuts than Labour, not “about the same”.

I’d also remind you that we are in 2019 and the deficit is still above where it was pre GFC. After ten years of Tory governance. So their more extreme plan failed.

I should again point out that I’m more radical in my economics than Brown was (I suspect fernando would say the same), so there’s some blurring here between my views and what Labour had planned.
 
Last edited: Oct 30, 2019

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #345
CCFCSteve said:
Ps propaganda ? ‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election
also useful to remind ourselves that Labour has drawn up similar significant cutting/austerity plans. Fair play to Byrne for holding his hands up though...shame many would rather sweep it under the carpet
Click to expand...

Austerity was and always has been a political choice.
 
Reactions: shmmeee and clint van damme

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #346
shmmeee said:
From: https://www.ifs.org.uk/election/ebn_summary.pdf



The tax rises to cuts ratio is important there as is the pace. The Tories were planning much deeper cuts than Labour, not “about the same”.

I should again point out that I’m more radical in my economics than Brown was (I suspect fernando would say the same), so there’s some blurring here between my views and what Labour has planned.
Click to expand...

mate you take a bat shit loon and his shite excel spread sheet as fact. Take a break
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #347
Ian1779 said:
Austerity was and always has been a political choice.
Click to expand...

I’ll refer you to the link as well
Ian (which indicates labour were going to make significant cuts if they’d won the 2010 election and that it was 100% needed)
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #348
Astute said:
The problem you have here is some don't want to admit that Labour spend too much meaning we need austerity to stop our finances going totally out of control.

The problem is that the austerity years can be so bad that we do need to give a lot back to the public.
Click to expand...
Zzzzzzzz
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #349
CCFCSteve said:
I’ll refer you to the link as well
Ian (which indicates labour were going to make significant cuts if they’d won the 2010 election and that it was 100% needed)
Click to expand...

As I said... it was and is a political choice. And Labour 2010-15 wonder why they went backwards.
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • Oct 30, 2019
  • #350
That treasury letter was tradition. They’ve all done it, Cameron just weaponised it because he knew idiots would fall for it. Apparently still are.
 
Reactions: clint van damme, Sky Blue Pete and shmmeee
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