Franchise - Relocation (3 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Aug 23, 2013

Grappa said:
Have I missed all the other documents they've leaked, then?

As far as I can see, the leaking seems to be coming from 'the other side'.

I'd describe my current position as disliking all parties involved pretty much equally bit I've got to say, the amount of one-eyed partisanship I see on this site is making me question where I should apportion blame.

that's my point exactly, other shitsu docs that have discredited what they were saying about where golden share/players contracts rested have got out and showed them in a bad light. so if fishface has a signed agreement that ccc reneged on why haven't they "leaked" it? it would not only show them in a better light but also give them some credibility with future and past statements that they have made claiming they are the victim.

i can only think of 1 reason, said signed agreement doesn't exist

simple_simon · Aug 23, 2013

Grappa said:
On the basis that annoying people like you support them blindly.

He maybe annoying but he is not blind or stupid as you sound?

SISU and those who support them are killing this once proud City.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 23, 2013

He just said he didn't support them.

Yorkshire SB · Aug 23, 2013

Tonylinc said:
I'm really interested to know on what basis you blame ACL. It was Shitzu who failed to pay the due rent, It was Shitzu who failed to file the accounts when they were due and it was Shitzu who moved your club to Northampton.

ACL sat by for 7 years as the club haemorrhaged money paying rent it could not afford. Then when the club is at breaking point and ask for negotiations (albeit with mixed intentions) they hold both hands up claiming absolute innocence. You can't tell me they did not see this coming. I know the club signed a contract but football doesn't operate like the normal business world, it is of great importance to many people (as the Northampton situation is proving), and contracts are broken. Were Coventry playing CL football you can bet your life ACL would be requesting a better rent deal.

To clarify (seems you need to with this witch hunt), I attribute blame on both sides.

Grappa · Aug 23, 2013

templericoh said:
ACL sat by for 7 years as the club haemorrhaged money paying rent it could not afford. Then when the club is at breaking point and ask for negotiations (albeit with mixed intentions) they hold both hands up claiming absolute innocence. You can't tell me they did not see this coming. I know the club signed a contract but football doesn't operate like the normal business world, it is of great importance to many people (as the Northampton situation is proving), and contracts are broken. Were Coventry playing CL football you can bet your life ACL would be requesting a better rent deal.

To clarify (seems you need to with this witch hunt), I attribute blame on both sides.

Seemingly necessary disclaimer: I attribute blame to all 3 sides.

ACL apparently paid £1,000,000 in 'management fees' to the council in 2012. The council provide 2 board members. £500k a pop. Lovely stuff.

Jack Griffin · Aug 23, 2013

templericoh said:
ACL sat by for 7 years as the club haemorrhaged money paying rent it could not afford. Then when the club is at breaking point and ask for negotiations (albeit with mixed intentions) they hold both hands up claiming absolute innocence. You can't tell me they did not see this coming. I know the club signed a contract but football doesn't operate like the normal business world, it is of great importance to many people (as the Northampton situation is proving), and contracts are broken. Were Coventry playing CL football you can bet your life ACL would be requesting a better rent deal.

To clarify (seems you need to with this witch hunt), I attribute blame on both sides.

What were CCFC doing during this time? Surely they're the ones who are responsible for their own business, it was never up to ACL to monitor their finances..

Jack Griffin · Aug 23, 2013

Grappa said:
Seemingly necessary disclaimer: I attribute blame to all 3 sides.

ACL apparently paid £1,000,000 in 'management fees' to the council in 2012. The council provide 2 board members. £500k a pop. Lovely stuff.

I know the council paid £2M seed funding to ACL.

Where is this information about management fees, never seen it documented.

shmmeee · Aug 23, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
I know the council paid £2M seed funding to ACL.

Where is this information about management fees, never seen it documented.

It's in the accounts for ACL.

It's less scandalous when the company made a profit and those in charge don't take a wage. Unlike the people charging us millions in management fees while we leak money with no end in sight.

letsallsingtogether · Aug 23, 2013

Yes and here is what the guardian have to say Interesting http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/aug/09/coventry-city-northampton-league-one

shmmeee said:
It's in the accounts for ACL.

It's less scandalous when the company made a profit and those in charge don't take a wage. Unlike the people charging us millions in management fees while we leak money with no end in sight.

Grappa · Aug 24, 2013

shmmeee said:
It's in the accounts for ACL.

It's less scandalous when the company made a profit and those in charge don't take a wage. Unlike the people charging us millions in management fees while we leak money with no end in sight.

It's a million quid for 2 council bods for a year. It's scandalous. And one board member gets £200k a year, they're not all unpaid.

letsallsingtogether · Aug 24, 2013

Who gets paid £1 m by ACL?

Grappa said:
It's a million quid for 2 council bods for a year. It's scandalous. And one board member gets £200k a year, they're not all unpaid.

Grappa · Aug 24, 2013

letsallsingtogether said:
Who gets paid £1 m by ACL?

Have a read of the thread mate, we're using English and everything.

Yorkshire SB · Aug 24, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
What were CCFC doing during this time? Surely they're the ones who are responsible for their own business, it was never up to ACL to monitor their finances..

Struggling to survive financially, like every other football league club without a sugar daddy, whilst paying a very high rent. I appreciate it's ultimately mismanagement on the clubs behalf, but ACL must have considered this arrangement would risk the club's long term future, which has ultimately led to our current situation.

letsallsingtogether · Aug 24, 2013

Yes but as you said apparently ......

Grappa said:
Have a read of the thread mate, we're using English and everything.

Grappa · Aug 24, 2013

letsallsingtogether said:
Yes but as you said apparently ......

ACL's accounts for 2012 state that £1m (£800k + £200k) was paid to the council for 'management fees'.

shmmeee · Aug 24, 2013

Grappa said:
ACL's accounts for 2012 state that £1m (£800k + £200k) was paid to the council for 'management fees'.

Ill be honest here, you may be right. But this isn't about ACL really, it was for me until they offered the rent and before we found out terms had been agreed for 50%.

I still maintain that it's different to a company building profit to one always on about cost cutting. I'd also say that frankly, beyond the rent deal offered to CCFC I don't give a flying fuck how they run their business. The same isn't true about the club I support.

bigfatronssba · Aug 24, 2013

templericoh said:
Struggling to survive financially, like every other football league club without a sugar daddy, whilst paying a very high rent. I appreciate it's ultimately mismanagement on the clubs behalf, but ACL must have considered this arrangement would risk the club's long term future, which has ultimately led to our current situation.

Ccfc and Acl are two separate private businesses, of which each are responsible for their own financial activities.

Im afraid this is all about sisus "its not our fault" culture. They own ccfc, they are responsible for it.

What you are suggesting is acl start telling ccfc how to manage its finances. Acl has no place to do that, no more than it has any place to pick the team.

The only people responsible for the running of ccfc is sisu, and you can try and blame as many other people as you want but it doesn't change the truth.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 24, 2013

shmmeee said:
Ill be honest here, you may be right. But this isn't about ACL really, it was for me until they offered the rent and before we found out terms had been agreed for 50%.

I still maintain that it's different to a company building profit to one always on about cost cutting. I'd also say that frankly, beyond the rent deal offered to CCFC I don't give a flying fuck how they run their business. The same isn't true about the club I support.

No agreement was actually made, I asked for clarification a while back.

Also rent offers have yet to be discussed with Fisher, only the administrator. Fine, you say, but then happy to talk to people with no interest in the football club...

letsallsingtogether · Aug 24, 2013

Exactly Sisu have acquired the debt in one way or another they have decided to play in Northampton they held forums then ignored all that was said as they Knew better.

They have caused a rift between Cov fans they have split the club so that we all come on here arguing and therefore find it hard to unite.

What is their Goal as I do not believe it has Coventry at heart.

About time they just left and let us rebuild our beloved Club

:bluean

bigfatronssba said:
Ccfc and Acl are two separate private businesses, of which each are responsible for their own financial activities.

Im afraid this is all about sisus "its not our fault" culture. They own ccfc, they are responsible for it.

What you are suggesting is acl start telling ccfc how to manage its finances. Acl has no place to do that, no more than it has any place to pick the team.

The only people responsible for the running of ccfc is sisu, and you can try and blame as many other people as you want but it doesn't change the truth.

DazzleTommyDazzle · Aug 24, 2013

Deleted member 5849 said:
No agreement was actually made, I asked for clarification a while back.

Also rent offers have yet to be discussed with Fisher, only the administrator. Fine, you say, but then happy to talk to people with no interest in the football club...

True, but why is that?

No doubt different people have different opinions, but to me it is clearly due to SISU's catastrophic mismanagement of the negotiations/relationship with ACL.

As Lou Reed would have advised - "Reap, reap, reap, what you sow....."

letsallsingtogether · Aug 24, 2013

So they have only mismanaged negotiations with ACL they do that with everyone that is why we are in this state,
I have never said that ACL are blameless but sorry blaming them for everything from selling players to not reaching play offs to moving our team away like some posters on here suggest is just farcical.......

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
True, but why is that?

No doubt different people have different opinions, but to me it is clearly due to SISU's catastrophic mismanagement of the negotiations/relationship with ACL.

As Lou Reed would have advised - "Reap, reap, reap, what you sow....."

Godiva · Aug 24, 2013

letsallsingtogether said:
So they have only mismanaged negotiations with ACL they do that with everyone that is why we are in this state,

Everyone?
They seem to get on fine with the FL. And with Northampton.
So not everyone ... just ACL and former directors and board members.

bigfatronssba · Aug 24, 2013

Godiva said:
Everyone?
They seem to get on fine with the FL. And with Northampton.
So not everyone ... just ACL and former directors and board members.

Chris Coleman
Countless former players
Managers of other clubs.
Players agents

Anyone else?

Grendel · Aug 24, 2013

shmmeee said:
Ill be honest here, you may be right. But this isn't about ACL really, it was for me until they offered the rent and before we found out terms had been agreed for 50%.

I still maintain that it's different to a company building profit to one always on about cost cutting. I'd also say that frankly, beyond the rent deal offered to CCFC I don't give a flying fuck how they run their business. The same isn't true about the club I support.

How can you seriously complain about the prinicipal of management fees in one organisation and be all "hip and cool" about it in another?

oldskyblue58 · Aug 24, 2013

Grappa said:
ACL's accounts for 2012 state that £1m (£800k + £200k) was paid to the council for 'management fees'.

No it doesnt

note 24 states that ACL PAID CCC £299935 in RATES & OPERATING EXPENSES (if you check the rateable value attributable to ACL then you will find most of that figure is rates)

then note 24 then states that ACL had SALES to CCC of £876658

Net GAIN not cost to ACL £576K

Management charges would have had to be disclosed in note 24. They are not

Yes there are directors paid but a few facts - had any council officer been paid by ACL it would have had to be disclosed in Note 24 (required under Company ACT and if not disclosed the Auditors would include in their report)- it isnt in either. Aside from which no representative of either stakeholder is paid salary, wages or remuneration. The highest paid director is the CEO of the operation D Gidney for that year (he has since left). Gidneywas not an employee of the CCC.

No mention of any management charge paid to CCC in the ACL 2012 Group accounts at all

torchomatic · Aug 24, 2013

Yet how many times have we heard people moan that CCFC pay SISU management fees? Personally, I think if you attack one side for doing something you really should do attack the other side if they do the same.

CCFC will be better club when we are free of both of them as far as I'm concerned.

shmmeee said:
Ill be honest here, you may be right. But this isn't about ACL really, it was for me until they offered the rent and before we found out terms had been agreed for 50%. .

Yorkshire SB · Aug 24, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Ccfc and Acl are two separate private businesses, of which each are responsible for their own financial activities.

Im afraid this is all about sisus "its not our fault" culture. They own ccfc, they are responsible for it.

What you are suggesting is acl start telling ccfc how to manage its finances. Acl has no place to do that, no more than it has any place to pick the team.

The only people responsible for the running of ccfc is sisu, and you can try and blame as many other people as you want but it doesn't change the truth.

I'm not blaming ACL for SISU's failures, nor an I suggesting that ACL tell SISU how to manage their finances, that would be ridiculous. What I am stating is they have to shoulder some responsibility for the mess we are currently in.
If you owned the Ricoh and it was well publicised that your tenant was operating unsustainably, in a large part due to the rent agreement you had with them, would it not occur to you that this would have some ramifications down the line? In most other businesses it doesn't matter, you can find another tenant, but football is different.

James Smith · Aug 24, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
No it doesnt

note 24 states that ACL PAID CCC £299935 in RATES & OPERATING EXPENSES (if you check the rateable value attributable to ACL then you will find most of that figure is rates)

then note 24 then states that ACL had SALES to CCC of £876658

Net GAIN not cost to ACL £576K

Management charges would have had to be disclosed in note 24. They are not

Yes there are directors paid but a few facts - had any council officer been paid by ACL it would have had to be disclosed in Note 24 (required under Company ACT and if not disclosed the Auditors would include in their report)- it isnt in either. Aside from which no representative of either stakeholder is paid salary, wages or remuneration. The highest paid director is the CEO of the operation D Gidney for that year (he has since left). Gidneywas not an employee of the CCC.

No mention of any management charge paid to CCC in the ACL 2012 Group accounts at all

So only the two independent directors got paid out of the 6 board members?

Jack Griffin · Aug 24, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
No it doesnt

note 24 states that ACL PAID CCC £299935 in RATES & OPERATING EXPENSES (if you check the rateable value attributable to ACL then you will find most of that figure is rates)

then note 24 then states that ACL had SALES to CCC of £876658

Net GAIN not cost to ACL £576K

Management charges would have had to be disclosed in note 24. They are not

Yes there are directors paid but a few facts - had any council officer been paid by ACL it would have had to be disclosed in Note 24 (required under Company ACT and if not disclosed the Auditors would include in their report)- it isnt in either. Aside from which no representative of either stakeholder is paid salary, wages or remuneration. The highest paid director is the CEO of the operation D Gidney for that year (he has since left). Gidneywas not an employee of the CCC.

No mention of any management charge paid to CCC in the ACL 2012 Group accounts at all

Thanks OSB, I think this confirms that Grappa is full of shit.

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 24, 2013

DazzleTommyDazzle said:
True, but why is that?

No doubt different people have different opinions, but to me it is clearly due to SISU's catastrophic mismanagement of the negotiations/relationship with ACL.

As Lou Reed would have advised - "Reap, reap, reap, what you sow....."

I honestly would say a mix.

There's evidence that despite hopes of rental renegotiations, nothing had moved in that respect for many years pre-SISu also.

That does suggest a lack of will to reach a compromise from other sides, too, that now comes to a head with less than half-hearted negotiations

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