For those who suggest we are not playing more kids than anyone else i.e. Derby (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
You know what irritates me is the two opposing attitudes on AT when no solutions or alternatives are offered. I sit somewhere in the middle of those views taking I think a more pragmatic view. Reality is we dont have the money, we shouldnt just expect it either, we have a small squad that is not bereft of all quality, our stats aside from scoring match most teams in this division, but the table doesnt lie and we are under achieving. Youthfulness is a factor, but so too is the manager and a host of other things - but all have positive elements (youngsters tend not to be afraid to play for a start) aswell as negative ones

Those in favour of AT often plead the poor guy never had a chance no money no players what did you expect ..... but AT is a good manager despite that. Just an opinion not a fact - like it or not in 10 years time all folk will remember is how many games he won

Those against AT often harangue him for his faults give no credit for things he gets right. Strangely he is human and as such prone to mistakes, the important thing is does he learn from them. I think he has but not as quick as perhaps he should have. But he does get some things right - Leeds game yes team picked itself but it played on the front foot closed players down and supported each other AT must have had an input in that

Both sides look to statistics to prove their arguement - often the same statistic looked at a different way.

It isnt about AT really it is about our club and whether we as paying fans are getting the best we can from it. He isnt to blame for all of it but he has certainly contributed in ways that have nothing to do with lack of players money or quality. I do not feel that as a supporter we have had the best out of any element of our club this season. In particular the players & manager should have done better - they are capable of it but they have under achieved. Just surviving one place above relegation would be an achievement of sorts but for me that sets the target way too low - that is not over achieving that seems to me to be lack of ambition

Have the mind that there is nearly always something that can be done - just how I was brought up. Similarly it is very rarely just one persons fault. AT can do better for folk to say he cannot simply doesnt compute with me even given the limitations he has been given. AT is replaceable and the next person may or may not do better we simply dont know. AT makes mistakes that are nothing to do with the limitations he works within - would go a long way with me if once or twice he comes out and says he got it wrong.

Yes we have a young squad - but it isnt as if they have only played a couple of games now, most are holding their own in this division (or are the performances not decent generally ?) Take the long term view, the fact they are learning the hard way will only make them better players - too much is made of players being too young to play. I reckon we have better young players than most teams but what we need is decent strong leadership - we dont have that at any level in CCFC. Our team captain isnt a strong leader and neither is AT - it might be fun in training, might show encouraging signs but thats not where we win points - a strong leader would demand more and know how to get it.

so to match my comments in the first paragraph - solutions
Certainly I would make Keogh captain - part of the solution but not ideal - Clingan isnt it. I would continue with the kids they are our future not some of the senior players, use them in preference to some of the senior players if able to choose. If i was AT i would spend a lot of time honestly analysing my own performance and getting that right, but that requires knowledge certainly above Level 2 FA .

just my opinion
 

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@richh87

Member
Can't agree OSB. One of the key tools a good manager should possess is the ability to change a game. How could anyone currently in charge of this squad do that? What would Fergie do - bring on Willis?

The squad inherited didn't exactly cover themselves in glory - so having lost the best players in that group (along with any squad depth) somehow leaves us with a 'capable squad' - for whom we should be targeting a higher finish than 4th bottom?

It's nice to set your targets high - but realism is needed.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
taking a more long term view @rich87 not a recent one

Yes at the start of the season I think we should have targeted higher. Not every game has had youngsters with no experience on the bench either so there are times he has had decent tools to make the difference. Point about setting targets too low is that it becomes comfortable and set it too low at 4th from bottom and you are asking for trouble. Too high and that can be a disincentive admittedly. I reckon the target has been 4th from bottom from day 1, a lot of our senior players thought no problem and performance suffered, they werent pushed to achieve enough. But I accept 4th from bottom is now the target. Still think the whole club lacks ambition - but thats just my opinion

Also think if we are going to bring Eastwood on for 2 minutes then we are better off planning for the future and bringing on one of the youngsters. Lot of reasons, youngsters are future of this club and the more experience they get the better - 2 minutes is more important in their development than FF. Eastwood will be gone in the summer. Eastwood, as i understand it gets a basic pay that increases for being on bench which goes to full match fee when he gets on the pitch, so thats an expensive 2 minutes.

The club in all its facets needs to sharpen up - little things can make a big difference in "elite" sport (cant believe I used that but it is appropriate in a general sense). CCFC miss a lot of tricks, lack discipline and focus - and I don't buy into there not being choices that may be better.
 
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Sick Boy

Well-Known Member
taking a more long term view @rich87 not a recent one

Yes at the start of the season I think we should have targeted higher. Not every game has had youngsters with no experience on the bench either so there are times he has had decent tools to make the difference. Point about setting targets too low is that it becomes comfortable and set it too low at 4th from bottom and you are asking for trouble. Too high and that can be a disincentive admittedly. I reckon the target has been 4th from bottom from day 1, a lot of our senior players thought no problem and performance suffered, they werent pushed to achieve enough. But I accept 4th from bottom is now the target. Still think the whole club lacks ambition - but thats just my opinion

Also think if we are going to bring Eastwood on for 2 minutes then we are better off planning for the future and bringing on one of the youngsters. Lot of reasons, youngsters are future of this club and the more experience they get the better - 2 minutes is more important in their development than FF. Eastwood will be gone in the summer. Eastwood, as i understand it gets a basic pay that increases for being on bench which goes to full match fee when he gets on the pitch, so thats an expensive 2 minutes.

The club in all its facets needs to sharpen up - little things can make a big difference in "elite" sport (cant believe I used that but it is appropriate in a general sense). CCFC miss a lot of tricks, lack discipline and focus - and don't buy into there not being choices that may be better.

An excellent post!!
 

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
I agree largely with both your post OSB. I do think CCFC is badly managed from top to bottom (in a similar way I believe the NHS is too!) and it's hardly rocket science to get things better organised and learn to adapt.

I do think AT is maligned a little too often though and most comments are not very constructive by posters on here.
However the old cliche is "the buck stops with me" exist for any manager at any football club and it is a results only business.

To mitigate AT's position I think the backroom staff are woefully inadequate and have been for some time. Harrison for me is a very weak link and presided over several managers at the club and yet he still has his job? Perhaps Thorn's authority is not wide enough to fire Harrison or others? Then perhaps it is. Either way if AT wanted to respond to what is going wrong he must be capable of looking at the staff assembled around him and ask questions of them. Loyalty goes out the window when your own job is on the line and others performance in theirs may result in you losing yours?
As for youngsters? TBH we have some very good ones and remember the two youngsters that started a season considered too young and inexperienced - Turner and Cameron, who did brilliantly? If they are good enough they are old enough....there not boys. Rooney was playing at Everton at 16 and even further back Trevor Francis was playing first team football at 16. Of course you are old enough. Alex Nimely is young but he is after all a product of an all singing all dancing fabulous squad at Man City so he must surely be considered more than good enough at Championship level?
Similarly Olly Norwood the same, a product of Man Utd reserves.

AT has a good enough squad to keep us up...that is all that is required. The argument for more loans, buying in aside and all that is SISU just deflect the job at hand. He should be able to work with what he has better than he is and I believe what he has are good enough not to be relegated.
Just remember another old saying "you're too good to go down". Forest have a superior squad than ours which most will agree yet they are struggling. There is no definitive answer but I firmly believe AT has had a large chunk of the season so far to get something to happen and apart from some flickering success at home the last few games (though we lost to Ipswich) we are not seeing things getting better are we?
As I said at the start the club has bad management top to bottom and that includes the team manager in my opinion of course. But bad management appointed him did they not?....and fail to recognise when it must change?
Those that say if Thorns keeps us up he will have done well are delusional. He has got us into the position where we are and if he had done well we wouldn't be there. I still think he can do it but that won't make him a better manager or a miracle worker.
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
Just please don't say you're in favour of the Coalition NHS reforms, Paxxo..
 

johnwillomagic

Well-Known Member
I've reached the conclusion some on this site are morons...it has taken me a while. DonGonzales makes part comments to prove his point but not the whole truth.....and then complain when people lift part of his stupid comments to prove it......This is before we took Nimely & Norwood as well........but i will not mention Hreidarson who signed at the same time and is 37 as this pisses over my argument so leave him out and hope no-one notices....hmm yes I'll do that.

Someone else has listed 12 youth players who yes are in the squad but the majority have hardly featured in start line up........Ruffles, Wilson.......etc etc come on. In reality we are now playing two/three youngsters in start xu and they are all playing well ......Christie has had a great season, Thomas many are aguing is better than Clingan you cannot have it both ways! Though as OSB has highlighted I think most people are.......Peterboro for instance have been playing David Ball a lot of the season and think he is only 17,,,,,how old was Michael Owen when he scored v Argentina......if you are good enough you are old enough......this we're down coz our players are a bit young is a trifle ludicros.....particularly as same people trying to argue this have at times raved about Christie & Thomas.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
John - I don't want to get dragged into this argument but Owen (and Rooney) were picked for England at 17 because they were good enough, they had forced themselves into their starting line ups through outstanding performances and were outstanding talents and by that I mean they were worthy of a place in the england squad- that's how good they were. So in their case they were good enough and therefore old enough. I also don't think they were playing in teams where there were 3/4 inexperienced players in the team.

Thomas, Christie and Bigi have played the majority of the season because of injuries, having a small squad and the general lack of quality in the side, that's not to down play how well they have played this year, because they have been fantastic.
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
Peterboro for instance have been playing David Ball a lot of the season and think he is only 17,,,,,.

He's 22 actually, spent years in the youth side at Man City.
 

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