For all you teachers out there. (1 Viewer)

[Flying Fokker]

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, causing recession, and so we have to take the money from elsewhere because of these greedy teachers, their massiv...e salaries are a drain on society, and they only work for what? 9 or 10 months a year!

It's time we put thing in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit! Surely we can get that for minimum wage?

That's right. Let's give them £6.00 an hour and only for the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, holiday pay, pensions, etc, or any time they spend before or after school. It's only child minding after all....

That would be £39.00 a day (7:45 AM to 3:00 PM with 45 minutes off for lunch and planning, that equals 6 1/2 hours work per day).

We should privatise the schools, and the teachers, we'll pay it. Each parent should pay £39 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day? Maybe 30? So that's £39.00 x 30 = £1,170.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET'S SEE.... That's £1,170 X 180 days = £210,600 per year. (Hold on, somethings wrong here! My calculator must need new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees who've been doing it for years? Well, we could pay them a little more (£7.75 an hour), and just to be fair to them, let's round it off to £8.00 an hour. That would be £8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = £280,800 per year. Wait a minute, someone's messing with my calculator -- there's something wrong here!

There sure is:
The average teacher's salary (nationwide figures from Sept 2011) is just over £30,000. So £30,000 divided by 180 days = £166.66 per day divided by 30 students = £5.55 per day divided by 6.5 hours = £0.85 per hour per student.

Which is a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE our kids! WHAT A DEAL!!!!

Heaven forbid we take into account the rights of all workers (holiday pay, pensions, etc) or highly qualified teachers and heads...

Make a teacher smile; re-post this to show your appreciation, and stop listening to the Tories and their figures....See More

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[cmoncity]

so are you having a pop at the teachers? dont get it!

 

[Nick]

Whats that got to do with anything? Random thread!

 

[kdrinkell]

so are you having a pop at the teachers? dont get it!

"Heaven forbid we take into account the rights of all workers (holiday pay, pensions, etc) or highly qualified teachers and heads..."

read that line

 

[SkyBlueScottie]

I really do hope the first 2 responses are in jest.

 

[Nick]

I really do hope the first 2 responses are in jest.

Do you mean mine?

 

[Flying Fokker]

Whats that got to do with anything? Random thread!

Don't you do off topic chat? Sorry dude.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Reading between the lines you don't get it do you?

 

[Stevearcade]

As a teacher, I totally agree (even if I do work in the private sector )

 

[Nick]

Don't you do off topic chat? Sorry dude.

Its fine, just a bit random

 

[Disorganised1]

As a school governor and father of 2 teachers I agree - I am also a Tory - don't believe all the figures your union give you either.

 

[crowsnest]

But the average class size is not 30 so your calculations are based on incorrect information.

Also nice to know that a teacher only works 6.5 hours s day for 180 days a year which means the average £30,000 works out at around £25 per hour worked

 

[Flying Fokker]

You assume that I wrote all of that! Cutting and pasting from a facebook comment actually.

Do the maths any way you like. Teachers are well worth the money.

Now..... I am also really impressed with the NHS. Their doctors and nurses are worth every penny in my opinion. How could you measure their success though?

 

[crowsnest]

You assume that I wrote all of that! Cutting and pasting from a facebook comment actually.

Do the maths any way you like. Teachers are well worth the money.

Now..... I am also really impressed with the NHS. Their doctors and nurses are worth every penny in my opinion. How could you measure their success though?

So you stole someone else homework!

 

[Covstu]

my wife was a college lecturer for a disabled college now course leader, its not as easy as people think!! BUT don't get me started on the pension!!!

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Students' and Teachers' have been unfairly 'targeted' by this ConDem coalition.

Privatisation of education!? No, no, no, no, no, no and no! Keep the private sector's nose out of education and health institutions!

Watch 'China's Ant People' if you disagree.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Students' and Teachers' have been unfairly 'targeted' by this ConDem coalition.

Privatisation of education!? No, no, no, no, no, no and no! Keep the private sector's nose out of education and health institutions!

Watch 'China's Ant People' if you disagree.

To be fair the promotion of the academy system has been one of the few success stories of this government (a system I understand was introduced by labour). The performance of a lot of the schools is poor, however, we all appreciate that teaching in deprived areas will not be easy. Trying to improve these standards should be encouraged.

Unfortunately a number of the changes being put forward are muddled at best but I believe the underlying intentions are good. There are too many people with vested interests who don't want to accept the changes. People have got to realise we (and most other countries) cannot afford the public sector bill/costs. Some countries have cut wages and salaries in the public sector by 10-20% to get costs under control, this will never be accepted here. I don't think anyone wants to see cuts to teachers, police, doctors, the front line armed forces, however we cannot afford the current levels of expenditure.

My one major gripe is that rather than cut some of the 1000s of people in procurement in the MoD, we cut soldiers. Rather than doctors accept reductions in pensions and salary, less is spent on ensuring we have an excellent hospitals. Rather than people embracing the academy system, people would rather we be stuck with under performing schools in deprived areas where teachers who aren't very good, never lose their jobs.

The whole system is pretty fucked but as mentioned earlier there are too many people with vested interests
to accept any sensible, rational changes so we get a muddled approach that try's not to upset too many people, too much.

 

[Stevearcade]

Education has become soooo unbelievably target driven, it's ridiculous. Private and State sectors. All they're concerned about is the end result as opposed to the journey the student goes on through their years of education. The school where I work (private school in East Sussex) is pretty holistic in its outlook and it's very rewarding as a teacher when you're allowed to run classes on things simply because they're interesting, no end exams or anything. About 30% of the week is dedicated to non curricular lessons on whatever the teachers and kids want to study. We do classic car restoration, zoology, american pool, song writing, music production, theatre technician training and literally hundreds of other things. Simply teaching kids stuff both you and they are genuinely interested in and that could benefit them in the future. There's a lot to be said for that as it's very rewarding and with the kids knowing that each day they get to study something they want to study, the exam-related academic stuff tends to benefit too.

It bugs me however that this kind of creative teaching is only possible because we're independent. I know many kids from previous jobs who'd have thrived where I am now, but obviously could never afford to go there.

 

[wingy]

They've both been used as political footballs for close on 20 years now to introduce dogmatic ideologies that really have little to do with improving the end product ,all that is achieved by this is a proffession that feels undermined ,undervalued and Dissillusioned,hardly likely to produce their best in that scenario,or deliver their utter best when confronted with ever shifting goalposts.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Teachers get a pretty good deal if you ask me.

A reasonable wage for what in reality is a part-time job.....

....And lets not forget their massive taxpayer funded holidays & pension pot which is beyond the wildest dreams of anyone outside of the public sector


Teachers...stop your moaning.....if you don't like yer job....quit & get a different job in the private sector.....see how much you moan then....

 

[Flying Fokker]

Sorry, which planet did you say you are from?

Work it out. Assessment, recording, reporting, planning over 13 curriculum subjects, meetings, liaising with parents..... Oh and they have to teach the children as well.

The job is not a bed of roses. But you are right, it is down to individual choice and people being held back because they have mortgages to pay or love the job more than they hate it. I think many graduates go in to teaching thinking it is a breeze of a job but the wake up call comes when they realise you have to work hard for the first few years.

I still feel that teachers are worth their money.

 

[Joy Division]

Teachers get a pretty good deal if you ask me.

A reasonable wage for what in reality is a part-time job.....

....And lets not forget their massive taxpayer funded holidays & pension pot which is beyond the wildest dreams of anyone outside of the public sector


Teachers...stop your moaning.....if you don't like yer job....quit & get a different job in the private sector.....see how much you moan then....

Part-time? You must be joking or completely deluded.

 

[Sick Boy]

I always wonder why those who claim that teaching is so easy/part-time work do not go into it themselves?

 

[Flying Fokker]

I always wonder why those who claim that teaching is so easy/part-time work do not go into it themselves?

Maybe they are bottom of the class.

 

[Sick Boy]

Teachers get a pretty good deal if you ask me.

A reasonable wage for what in reality is a part-time job.....

....And lets not forget their massive taxpayer funded holidays & pension pot which is beyond the wildest dreams of anyone outside of the public sector


Teachers...stop your moaning.....if you don't like yer job....quit & get a different job in the private sector.....see how much you moan then....

I have taught in both the UK & Italian state schools.

I have also worked in the private sector, and I am going to be trying to go back into it after this summer, surely that must tell you something?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Part-time? You must be joking or completely deluded.

Not really.....A job that only requires the incumbent to attend for slightly less than 9 months a year is, in my opinion, certainly part-time.....

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I have taught in both the UK & Italian state schools.

I have also worked in the private sector, and I am going to be trying to go back into it after this summer, surely that must tell you something?

Can you clarify Sick Boy?

Do you mean you're going back to teaching or going back to work in a non-teaching role within the private sector?

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I always wonder why those who claim that teaching is so easy/part-time work do not go into it themselves?

So can we not offer opinion unless we've walked a mile in your shoes?

I have 2 good friends who are teachers. The first always wanted to be a teacher, attended teacher training college, became a teacher, served "his time" at a couple rough comps in south london, then entered "easy street" (his words, not mine) by working in a comp. in a leafy devon town...... He recently became AP (Deputy Head in old money) of said school and now has to "work for a living" again (his words, not mine) but he is on 50K + per year (9 months) and will end up with a whopping pension.
My other teacher mate entered later.....he had a degree, had several jobs in various private sector industries, then decided a teachnig career would be more suitable as he & his wife wanted to start a family......his first few years were tough but now he also has his lesson plans sorted & manages his time like he used to when working in an office envronment....he reckons a lot of his colleages spend more time moaning about the paperwork, marking etc. than actually doing it.....hes out the door done & dusted while their still bitching about it whilst making their 3rd coffee...

 

[Joy Division]

So can we not offer opinion unless we've walked a mile in your shoes?

I have 2 good friends who are teachers. The first always wanted to be a teacher, attended teacher training college, became a teacher, served "his time" at a couple rough comps in south london, then entered "easy street" (his words, not mine) by working in a comp. in a leafy devon town...... He recently became AP (Deputy Head in old money) of said school and now has to "work for a living" again (his words, not mine) but he is on 50K + per year (9 months) and will end up with a whopping pension.
My other teacher mate entered later.....he had a degree, had several jobs in various private sector industries, then decided a teachnig career would be more suitable as he & his wife wanted to start a family......his first few years were tough but now he also has his lesson plans sorted & manages his time like he used to when working in an office envronment....he reckons a lot of his colleages spend more time moaning about the paperwork, marking etc. than actually doing it.....hes out the door done & dusted while their still bitching about it whilst making their 3rd coffee...

I would suggest your mates are either talking slight bollocks or if they are actually telling the truth they they have been performing their jobs very poorly. Your second friend says lesson plans are sorted for him, so who exactly does this?

My girlfriend is a teacher at a comp secondary school (now an academy) in an area of Birmingham that can be described as deprived. Every day she will be in school for 8.30 at the latest so preparations for the her form class to arrive at 8.55 can be completed. Teaching classes all day from varying levels of capability and challenging or threatening behavior, any free periods are either taken up by marking work and completing any other paperwork or covering any other lessons where required. Classes finish at 3.35, staff meetings take place up until 4.15-4.45. Finish and get home, continue marking for all homework/classwork, complete lesson plans, student reports and prepare examples of work for the next day. By 8.30 she is usually finished if she is lucky. This isn't taking into account the continuous inspections from OFSTED and target driven outcomes for each student.

Yes there are summer holidays and half term holidays but remember a teacher cannot 'book off' holiday at any other time of the year, I'd say the levels of stress involved in the job they pretty much deserve that time off.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

He does his own lesson plans......its just after him being in the job a few years, teaching the same subject to the same cirriculum, he does them standing on his head. Its the same as most other jobs in that respect, once you've got settled, got some experience & learned the system, you can just work far more efficiently.

I doubt either of them are doing their jobs poorly, especially my old school friend who has recently been promoted to AP.....

I'd politely counter & suggest that your girlfriend is either relatively new to teaching or is not working as efficiently as she could.

 

[Joy Division]

She's been teaching for 7 years and has been promoted to head of curriculum as of September last year.

Your friend who has recently become AP has probably done little teaching for a while to be promoted to that level, I'm guessing head of department which certainly does require a small level of teaching and a more management type role. To be a good teacher you have to have a spark and an enthusiasm that translates to the kids that effectively gets them the results they need. Suggesting it as easy sounds like someone who has lost the buzz, and probably losing the attention of the kids they teach. Either way, I'd take what your mates tell you with a pinch of salt.

 

[CCFCSteve]

What are peoples views on the NUT rejecting plans to make teacher pay, partly performance based. Once again, in my eyes it sums up the unions, not everyone is the same, people who work their arse off and do a good job should be rewarded for it, those that dont, shouldnt ! Appreciate its difficult to measure performance (theres enough targets already Im guessing). But surely this is a good thing ?! Its almost as if the NUT/certain unions want to reject anything the government offers. Jokers !

Joy Division - fair play to your girlfriend. in particular the fact that she is working in a school in a deprived area (I can imagine that is not easy !) Whats her view on the change from state to academy ? Has it changed students performance ?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What are peoples views on the NUT rejecting plans to make teacher pay, partly performance based. Once again, in my eyes it sums up the unions, not everyone is the same, people who work their arse off and do a good job should be rewarded for it, those that dont, shouldnt ! Appreciate its difficult to measure performance (theres enough targets already Im guessing). But surely this is a good thing ?! Its almost as if the NUT/certain unions want to reject anything the government offers. Jokers !

Joy Division - fair play to your girlfriend. in particular the fact that she is working in a school in a deprived area (I can imagine that is not easy !) Whats her view on the change from state to academy ? Has it changed students performance ?

Pay on performances... Interesting...

I haven't looked at the proposals, but, who actually judges how well they are performing and then, how much they should get paid? My gut instinct is that this could lead to big time nepotism (perhaps not used in the best way, my point is some teachers will unfairly get increases/decreases).

Another somewhat flaw in this system, I am an able student, I have got an A or B grade in a subject whilst pissing about the whole year and the teacher, simply can't control the class, but should get a better salary because the pupils performed? On the other hand, I got an E grade in 1 subject, I just weren't good at it, nor my class, but she was hands down better than the teacher I had for the A/B grade subject, do they deserve cuts? Also, there are subjects that a school traditionally do well or bad in, should teachers get persecuted in this way?

Of course this based on my experience in school, but that's my opinions. It's a good/ideal idea, but is it practical? I don't think so. Parties are letting ideology get in the way of increasing quality of teaching.

Remember, Teachers' Unions are interest groups, so have a duty to protect their members' interests.

 

[Stevearcade]

One chap at work is a miracle worker. He's simply awesome. He's an English teacher and opts to always work with the toughest, kids and takes children that typically wouldn't pass a single GCSE and gets them E's, D's and even C's. This in turn has tremendous knock-on effects for the individuals and whilst their grades are still relatively poor, he is nonetheless changing lives. Some students (without telling him) documented his work and submitted him in a teaching competition. He won and had to go to the houses of parliament to receive an award from the then Minister of Education.

So as his students' grades are always in the bottom tier, how would that reflect on his pay in a performance based system?

I feel the education system is already to too heavily judged on "performance" and in truth the issue of performance in academia is so subjective and nuance that it's not really quantifiable underneath the fanfare of exams. It's becoming evermore competitive and obsessed with grades and outcomes. However, the more competitive it becomes, the more it loses sight of what learning should really be about; setting kids up to deal with life, to challenge, to question and to problem solve. Not jump though bloody hoops all the time. In my opinion, the journey is far more important than the destination.

But I guess none of that would look any good as a headline that could sway dumb-ass floating voters :thinking about:.

 

[CCFCSteve]

One chap at work is a miracle worker. He's simply awesome. He's an English teacher and opts to always work with the toughest, kids and takes children that typically wouldn't pass a single GCSE and gets them E's, D's and even C's. This in turn has tremendous knock-on effects for the individuals and whilst their grades are still relatively poor, he is nonetheless changing lives. Some students (without telling him) documented his work and submitted him in a teaching competition. He won and had to go to the houses of parliament to receive an award from the then Minister of Education.

So as his students' grades are always in the bottom tier, how would that reflect on his pay in a performance based system?

I feel the education system is already to too heavily judged on "performance" and in truth the issue of performance in academia is so subjective and nuance that it's not really quantifiable underneath the fanfare of exams. It's becoming evermore competitive and obsessed with grades and outcomes. However, the more competitive it becomes, the more it loses sight of what learning should really be about; setting kids up to deal with life, to challenge, to question and to problem solve. Not jump though bloody hoops all the time. In my opinion, the journey is far more important than the destination.

But I guess none of that would look any good as a headline that could sway dumb-ass floating voters :thinking about:.

But that highlights the point around rewarding perfromance entirely. Im sure this teacher takes on this role for the love of the job and Im sure his reward is seeing the development of the kids, however, nobody can tell me he deserves the same pay as a teacher at the opposite end of the spectrum that wheels out the same lessons year after year, puts in no additional effort to support and help kids improve and is going through the motions until retirement ? Not everyone is the same or performs the same.

This isnt necessarily just about kids getting high grades but my understanding is that head teachers will have discretion on the progress made by certain teachers (if your friends help and work has seen a student who'd never usually attend class, now regularly attend, or one of the kids improving from an expected F to a D, thats improvement, thats performance !!!!) The drive for targets and the exam system is what has failed a huge number of kids over the last 10+ years. The amounts of kids who come out without at least the basics is frightening. So what do we do as a country...just let it continue ???

I appreciate the NUT has to look after its members but it's coming across as more of an agent, trying to get the best deal for their clients, rather than offering up alternative solutions to the problems faced by the profession which may in turn help to recover the respect many of the teachers deserve. The uptake on Acadamy's in my view is surprisingly/worryingly high, whys this ??? Because parents do not consider what they/their kids are receiving from their local schools is good enough. This should have been addressed by the NUT and the teaching profession, an acceptance that if a teacher isnt good, maybe they should be removed from the profession, not bounced to another school would be good for starters.

If you were a bright graduate would you be more or less tempted to go into a profession that you know would reward you if you performed well ?