jackmartin
New Member
Is this the same F AND B the club sold to acl for 6million? They make out they have never had it,yet more spin and bullshit from the wanker that is tim fisher.They knew all this when they "saved" the club
F and b (2 Viewers)
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No it's not, it's just a small part of what they sold.
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Have we got a breakdown anywhere of what the club sold? I know what I remember reading and what I heard, but would be interested to know for sure.
jackmartin
New Member
also find it funny that fisher says it was never about the rent yet their are clip on you tube of him talking to fans about it being about the rent
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
The Club have always stated that they need to access Matchday Revenues, it's not a particular spin they have put on this time round.
The Club have also stated that they're happy to pay a competitive rent.
The problem is all this information has been misconstrued in a pile of steaming horse manure of a situation which has gone on for months and has been fought in courts.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Robo, the club are the only ones who have "misconstrued" here. Previous statements from all concerned have said it's the level of rent, hence the whole "average League 1 rent" malarky.
It only became about revenues when it was clear ACL could offer a low rent.
Let's be honest mate, it's about distressing ACL and nothing more. That's all that's stopping a deal. The latest PR blast is just that, the appearance of softening while actually just repeating what they've been demanding and what has been stopping us coming home short term.
We're no further along and they're just taking the piss because the march is today and they want to take the sting out of it.
Fucked off with this. Stop pissing about with people's emotions and just state straight out that you're not coming back while there's a chance ACL might go bust.
It only became about revenues when it was clear ACL could offer a low rent.
Let's be honest mate, it's about distressing ACL and nothing more. That's all that's stopping a deal. The latest PR blast is just that, the appearance of softening while actually just repeating what they've been demanding and what has been stopping us coming home short term.
We're no further along and they're just taking the piss because the march is today and they want to take the sting out of it.
Fucked off with this. Stop pissing about with people's emotions and just state straight out that you're not coming back while there's a chance ACL might go bust.
Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
Heres a question,
If the club doesn't have a contract with ACL any more and isn't Coventry City LTD any more, does that mean Otium own all of CCFCs earnings regardless what was sold in 2003??
I guess what im trying to say, do Otium come to the table already having that in their back pocket, which would mean the compass agreement is separate to any new deal. In my opinion if ACL works fine without the club then it would work fine with the club and not miss this income stream, at the end of the day when the club return and i'm going to say when, they are going to have to evolve their business model to suit!
If the club doesn't have a contract with ACL any more and isn't Coventry City LTD any more, does that mean Otium own all of CCFCs earnings regardless what was sold in 2003??
I guess what im trying to say, do Otium come to the table already having that in their back pocket, which would mean the compass agreement is separate to any new deal. In my opinion if ACL works fine without the club then it would work fine with the club and not miss this income stream, at the end of the day when the club return and i'm going to say when, they are going to have to evolve their business model to suit!
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Could you repeat that in non riddle form please
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Could you repeat that in non riddle form please
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What he's saying is: does any new tenant also have to give over revenue rights? If not, as Otium are essentially a new tenant, would they be covered by the Compass deal or could they not negotiate their own rights?
My guess is that the Compass deal covers anything done at the Arena, but it'd be interesting to know.
Basically, can a revenue deal be done outside of the Compass deal just for CCFC as in effect they're missing that revenue anyway with no CCFC so what's the problem?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Ah, yes agree with you, compass deal covers all use of the Ricoh so any new tenant will be required to use that arrangementX
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Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
Could you repeat that in non riddle form please
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Ok ill try lol,
CCFC Ltd no longer have a rent agreement with ACL
ACL signed a deal with Compass which included ccfc ltds rent agreement
at the moment theres no rent agreement and no connection to the club
So any new deal would be outside this agreement?
Its only a question, as i said it could be totally wrong (which i probably is) but it is a question i think should be asked.....
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Here's my guess as to why a new deal wouldn't be outside any agreement.
The arena is mostly one off events. Any revenue contract would surely recognise this and not need a new deal signed for each act/conference. As such the deal probably covers the building, not the event.
Just a guess.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
It seems pretty straight forward to me. SISU buy back the F&B rights that the Club sold at the "Going rate". That won't happen though. It means SISU have to pay out Money rather than have it "Given to them on a plate"
RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
If I was ACL I,bearing in mind I don't get any income from Ccfc at present, I would say once the fl give us our money and SISU pay us the money up front for a short term deal, you can have our share of the Compass profits.
Your move Tim.
Your move Tim.
Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
[h=1]Compass Group wins groundbreaking Ricoh Arena deal[/h]07 April 2009
[h=3]Compass Group UK & Ireland has signed a £125m catering and FM deal with the Ricoh Arena, which is claimed to be the first of its kind in the sports and leisure market.[/h]The contract includes catering for the international sports, leisure, exhibition, conference and banqueting complex for the next 10 years, as well as a full facilities service across the award-winning venue. Compass Group will be responsible for hotel management, housekeeping, security, guest services, portering and the venue’s sales and marketing operation.
The Ricoh Arena is the home of Coventry City FC and has emerged as a leading international concert venue hosting Take That and Oasis this summer. The Jaguar Hall attracted more than 100 major events over the last 12 months including conferences, exhibitions, banquets, product launches and Christmas parties. It can host concerts for 8,000 as an indoor arena, and also includes an integrated hotel and health club and the largest casino in the UK.
Daniel Gidney, chief executive of the Ricoh Arena, said: “This is the first time any support services company has entered into such a wide-ranging multi-services deal in the leisure industry in the UK. This contract with Compass underlines the growth in size and international reputation of the Ricoh. It will see both companies continuing the progress they have made in partnership over the last five years.”
Compass Sports Leisure and Hospitality is the market leader in the UK in this field, providing innovative and flexible catering and facilities management solutions to large multi-service venues across the country.
Matthew Thompson, Managing Director, Sport, Leisure & Hospitality for Compass, said: “We have major joint ventures at other sporting venues which take in catering and facilities, but this is the first time we have entered into such a deep integrated facilities management deal for multiple services with an operating company. We are delighted to expand our relationship with such a great venue. The Ricoh Arena has developed considerably since it opened and is now regarded internationally as a premier destination venue for a whole range of events across business, entertainment and sport.”
the wording is interesting, and could be taken in several ways at no point is the club mentioned, but the actual deal would have to be broken down in the talks!
The Ricoh Arena is the home of Coventry City FC and has emerged as a leading international concert venue hosting Take That and Oasis this summer. The Jaguar Hall attracted more than 100 major events over the last 12 months including conferences, exhibitions, banquets, product launches and Christmas parties. It can host concerts for 8,000 as an indoor arena, and also includes an integrated hotel and health club and the largest casino in the UK.
Daniel Gidney, chief executive of the Ricoh Arena, said: “This is the first time any support services company has entered into such a wide-ranging multi-services deal in the leisure industry in the UK. This contract with Compass underlines the growth in size and international reputation of the Ricoh. It will see both companies continuing the progress they have made in partnership over the last five years.”
Compass Sports Leisure and Hospitality is the market leader in the UK in this field, providing innovative and flexible catering and facilities management solutions to large multi-service venues across the country.
Matthew Thompson, Managing Director, Sport, Leisure & Hospitality for Compass, said: “We have major joint ventures at other sporting venues which take in catering and facilities, but this is the first time we have entered into such a deep integrated facilities management deal for multiple services with an operating company. We are delighted to expand our relationship with such a great venue. The Ricoh Arena has developed considerably since it opened and is now regarded internationally as a premier destination venue for a whole range of events across business, entertainment and sport.”
the wording is interesting, and could be taken in several ways at no point is the club mentioned, but the actual deal would have to be broken down in the talks!
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the F&B's profits are only c10% so ACL's that would only be worth £70-80k per annum. Not really that appealing.
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Yes, well I have dealt with concessionaires on exhibition sites who have a monopoly on F&B. I have sold with their consent and with the consent of the exhibition authorities. It was not easy and I had to pay a percentage of turnover. In this case, as the bowl is empty and CCFC have a track record of attracting thousands of paying customers, it must be possible to come to some sort of percentage agreement in a sub-contract which would benefit all parties. Don't forget that Compass invested in the catering infrastructure and anything sold is done so using their catering facilities. No-one is going to sell pies and give all the money to CCFC anyway.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
The structure referred to in 2009 is not the same as it is now
IEC Experience is a subsidiary of ACL and has the rights to manage the whole site for 15 years initally. IEC was formed april 2012. Compass own 23% of IEC and supply IEC with the staff etc. You can reasonably expect the iec deal with ACl and the Compass deal with IEC to be exclusive.
There is no remaining rights for CCFC to be part of anything at the Ricoh. There is no point trying to relate things back because there is no legal basis to do so. Any deal will be entirely new and will need to be on terms both sides can accept.
There are down sides regarding giving CCFC income rights - for instance what about other bookings that are cancelled or affected by a CCFC return eg Hotel rooms not available because they are executive boxes for matches. So in that sense why would they just give it away?
The f&B rights were sold not as a seperate item but as part of the sale of the shares that CCFC held in ACL.
Question if you were only doing a short term deal would you sell the rights to a party you were told was going to leave in less than 36 months? Isnt it more likely that they agree that CCFC can buy them in as they go? It still works for FFP.
Everyone is assuming that ACL are going to accept a 3 year deal. What happens if they say we do not really trust CCFC and only offer them a 12 month deal renewal basis?
Here is another thought. Are there two levels of rent (leaving aside the quality of facilities compared to other L1 grounds)? One rent that gives you access to certain other incomes and another lower rent that doesnt?
Things like Car parking and pitch side adverts are easy to sort out but something like F&B or corporate hospitality is much harder because of the way such things link to the utilities, health& safety, insurance, supply lines etc at the Ricoh
I doubt that ACL will release responsibility for the stadium licence to CCFC on match days and that alone means that CCFC have to comply with ACL regulations, training, proceedures etc ....... that brings cost.
Not as easy as it first looks is it
IEC Experience is a subsidiary of ACL and has the rights to manage the whole site for 15 years initally. IEC was formed april 2012. Compass own 23% of IEC and supply IEC with the staff etc. You can reasonably expect the iec deal with ACl and the Compass deal with IEC to be exclusive.
There is no remaining rights for CCFC to be part of anything at the Ricoh. There is no point trying to relate things back because there is no legal basis to do so. Any deal will be entirely new and will need to be on terms both sides can accept.
There are down sides regarding giving CCFC income rights - for instance what about other bookings that are cancelled or affected by a CCFC return eg Hotel rooms not available because they are executive boxes for matches. So in that sense why would they just give it away?
The f&B rights were sold not as a seperate item but as part of the sale of the shares that CCFC held in ACL.
Question if you were only doing a short term deal would you sell the rights to a party you were told was going to leave in less than 36 months? Isnt it more likely that they agree that CCFC can buy them in as they go? It still works for FFP.
Everyone is assuming that ACL are going to accept a 3 year deal. What happens if they say we do not really trust CCFC and only offer them a 12 month deal renewal basis?
Here is another thought. Are there two levels of rent (leaving aside the quality of facilities compared to other L1 grounds)? One rent that gives you access to certain other incomes and another lower rent that doesnt?
Things like Car parking and pitch side adverts are easy to sort out but something like F&B or corporate hospitality is much harder because of the way such things link to the utilities, health& safety, insurance, supply lines etc at the Ricoh
I doubt that ACL will release responsibility for the stadium licence to CCFC on match days and that alone means that CCFC have to comply with ACL regulations, training, proceedures etc ....... that brings cost.
Not as easy as it first looks is it
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The F&B benefit is exagerated when taken as solely for CCFC on matchdays. CCFC couldn't do it themselves. They would have to use the facilities which were paid for by someone else and would have to staff and supply the facilities once in every two weeks. There would be waste. You would have problems finding reliable trained staff for such occasionlal work. CCFC would have to have a supervisor to control all of this and in the off season the staff would have no work. That's why stadiums/ exhibition sites have concessionaires who are geared up to doing events and who pay the management companies a percentage of turnover. This reduces the potential earnings of the stadium company ( or CCFC ), but relieves them of the stress. I see the stadium naming rights, advertising rights as far more beneficial to CCFC than F&B. That's where they should be looking for money - and it comes back to buying into ACL in order to get a share of this.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Although I agree with a lot of your points, I disagree about struggling to finding reliable trained staff. It would be easy, they do it with stewards (yes, they are actually trained and do NVQ's etc in it), and actually I imagine the majority of staff manning the Concourse on matchdays are on 0 hours contracts and brought in specifically for matchday and concerts, etc.
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CCFC PimpRail
New Member
I can't wait for the day when ccfc are in charge of stadium naming rights. Their efforts to find a shirt sponsor have gone so well....
Although I agree with a lot of your points, I disagree about struggling to finding reliable trained staff. It would be easy, they do it with stewards (yes, they are actually trained and do NVQ's etc in it), and actually I imagine the majority of staff manning the Concourse on matchdays are on 0 hours contracts and brought in specifically for matchday and concerts, etc.
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I do a lot of events - and I do get the staff - but there are staff and..staff. They would get staff of course, but it is not as easy getting good staff as it may seem and then you have to have someone in charge of the staff. Serving people and having cash it the till are a bit different to basically observing and being there in case something happens. I have my regulars, but they have holidays, go sick, get a new job etc. and then you have to look around at short notice.
Seriously though. If they had bought into ACL at 5,5m they would have been able to do something about shirt sponsoring as they would still be playing in Cov.. The whole discussion would be different. There would be no march, no JR, no Higgs' case and they as a part of ACL would be hard-selling the naming rights. The F&B would be secondary.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I was wondering if ACL couldn't rent out one or two of the empty kiosks in the concourse.
The problem with using the ones that are set up for others would be wear and tear on the equipment, set up for a particular type of service, etc.
Besides, I wonder if most of the issue isn't that ACL simply don't trust Sisu to have access to the accounts (which they'd need for any revenue sharing) as there's a good chance Sisu just want that information to make it easier to distress them. Hence why a return without revenue to show good will might be a good first step (aside from actually being better for the club as well).
The problem with using the ones that are set up for others would be wear and tear on the equipment, set up for a particular type of service, etc.
Besides, I wonder if most of the issue isn't that ACL simply don't trust Sisu to have access to the accounts (which they'd need for any revenue sharing) as there's a good chance Sisu just want that information to make it easier to distress them. Hence why a return without revenue to show good will might be a good first step (aside from actually being better for the club as well).
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
I still haven't really heard a reason as to why the club cant just keep matchday revenue, and then ACL simply add this to matchday costs?
We are told its all about meeting FFP rules, so why wouldn't this work?
We are told its all about meeting FFP rules, so why wouldn't this work?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It would in theory. As I said, I suspect the issue is something to do with the fact that for that to work ACL would have to open their books to Sisu. That would obviously make it a lot easier for Sisu to distress ACL should they wish to. It's kind of chicken and egg, how to you get that trust back once it's been breached? I'd say dropping legal action would be a start.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
No that was the rent paid to Northampton I think.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Do we get any F&B at Sixfields? There was an interview with Cardoza, think it was in the local Northampton paper, about us playing there and he said Northampton wouldn't see any benefit from additional F&B as it would all go to the company who has the contract as Sixfields, their equivalent of Compass / IEC.
Nope it's already a rip off paying over £15 a ticket in this dog shit league
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
If they said tickets are going up £2 so we can come back I would have no problem with that.
They could do something like have a tear off £2 pre paid voucher on the tickets then make a deal with Compass where they pay them back cost price for anything purchased using the vouchers. Would be more revenue for the club as not everyone would use them and could see an increase in revenue for Compass as once people are at the kiosk they are likely to spend more.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't really solve much though would it? And in essence is no different to the proposed cross invoicing.
Either way, great, our turnover is boosted by £1m, that's £600k more we can spend on wages or transfers, but as you would be paying the £1m back to ACL you've basically got to borrow another £600k to cover those wages/transfers so more losses debt to the club.
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Ian1779
Well-Known Member
They didn't buy them... only only purchase was Higgs obtaining the 50% share of ACL sold by CCFC.