Double decker crash (1 Viewer)

Nick said:

Didn't he plead unfit from the start?

If he can't stand trial, why was he driving a bus?

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Money?

martcov said:

The sheer number of working hours as a driver. I thought as a rule you can only drive up to 9 hours a day in the EU. Exceptions are allowed for the occasional longer day. There has to be a break between days of 11 hours to sleep and recover. How did he do it? Or is it different for bus drivers? Maximum without a break is 4,5 hours, Break is 45 minutes.

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I see we went through the times in Oktober 2017. I am on a 45 minute break now. I have to have a card with me recording all times. My employer ( which I don’t have as selfemployed ) is supposed to keep the daily print outs from the tachometer. If you break the rules the „incidents“ are highlighted with exclamation marks for the employer to see. The employer is at least as guilty as they had to be aware of his hours.

Nick said:

Didn't he plead unfit from the start?

If he can't stand trial, why was he driving a bus? The bus company need to take some of the blame.

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Now I'm not denying it looks odd but... a lot can happen to someone's health in three years.

Deleted member 5849 said:

Now I'm not denying it looks odd but... a lot can happen to someone's health in three years.

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He is now 80. He was too bloody old to be driving a bus full of passengers 3 years ago.

Captain Dart said:

He is now 80. He was too bloody old to be driving a bus full of passengers 3 years ago.

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Not neccessarily. It may well prove to be that in this particular case he was too old, and it may well prove to be that in this particular case they hadn't been rigorous enough in their checks.

But let's face it, for half of us on this board the state retirement age will be 75 by the time we get there, and there are some 75 year olds who are healthier than 45 year olds.

The issue here isn't a blanket he's too old, and writing people off, it's whether this particular person was too old, and whether this particular person was checked out properly.

(Of course it's probabl;y worth asking why a 77 year old finds themselves still doing paid work...)

Deleted member 5849 said:

Not neccessarily. It may well prove to be that in this particular case he was too old, and it may well prove to be that in this particular case they hadn't been rigorous enough in their checks.

But let's face it, for half of us on this board the state retirement age will be 75 by the time we get there, and there are some 75 year olds who are healthier than 45 year olds.

The issue here isn't a blanket he's too old, and writing people off, it's whether this particular person was too old, and whether this particular person was checked out properly.

(Of course it's probabl;y worth asking why a 77 year old finds themselves still doing paid work...)

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You'd be OK with him flying a plane at 77? I wouldn't

Grendel said:

You'd be OK with him flying a plane at 77? I wouldn't

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At the risk of being flippant,-tbh I'd probably be happier him doing that than driving a bus! Autopilot and a co-pilot there, for a start...

Again, it's not the age in itself that's the issue. The age makes it more likely he's not fit to do a job, but it isn't the ultimate barrier in itself, and of course which job will have different demands.

As the cannot actively discriminate on age, it makes this argument difficult however you would think there would be various steps in place such as regular eye checks as part of their OH processes would have highlighted any detiriation due to age.

If he is working those hours (which I doubt with one company) then the company deserve all they get on this one.

Yep I agree company culpable. What is the medical reason he can’t stand trial?

I said at the start there's no purpose to this trial regards the elderly driver
What would sending him down achieve apart from satisfying the blame culture we live in .
He had an accident through some sort of lapse
Yes unfortunately people's loved ones died but accidents happen every day in all age groups through lapsss in concentration , being reckless , distraction etc .

wingy said:

I said at the start there's no purpose to this trial regards the elderly driver
What would sending him down achieve apart from satisfying the blame culture we live in .
He had an accident through some sort of lapse
Yes unfortunately people's loved ones died but accidents happen every day in all age groups through lapsss in concentration , being reckless , distraction etc .

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On the other hand you can't let somebody off because of their age.

Nick said:

On the other hand you can't let somebody off because of their age.

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Sainsbury's bus crash: Jury watches moment of fatal impact
They also stated that the now 80-year-old had been involved in four other crashes while at the wheel of a bus in the three previous years.

Captain Dart said:

Sainsbury's bus crash: Jury watches moment of fatal impact
They also stated that the now 80-year-old had been involved in four other crashes while at the wheel of a bus in the three previous years.

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I worked there between 2003-06. From what i remember he used to be a cover driver ( Anyone rang in sick etc)....Nice bloke, very quiet and polite. Personally i think 65 is old enough to be in charge of any public transport but as someone mentioned earlier, some 70 yr olds are fitter than a lot younger folk.

The point about fitness is for me more in relation to the mental ability, reaction times and the like. My father in law is 84 and fit as a fiddle, goes swimming every morning and is as active as it comes for that age but if you look at his car there are bumps and scrapes all over it, mostly from parking it in his garage it has to be said but his wife is reluctant to get in the car with him. No one will ever convince me that a 77 year old is mentally fit to drive a bus full of people. Having said all that i think the bus company is at least 90% responsible.

Covstu said:

As the cannot actively discriminate on age, it makes this argument difficult however you would think there would be various steps in place such as regular eye checks as part of their OH processes would have highlighted any detiriation due to age.

If he is working those hours (which I doubt with one company) then the company deserve all they get on this one.

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Age clearly prohibits activities it’s not descrimination

Can you have a 77 year old fireman?

Deleted member 5849 said:

At the risk of being flippant,-tbh I'd probably be happier him doing that than driving a bus! Autopilot and a co-pilot there, for a start...

Again, it's not the age in itself that's the issue. The age makes it more likely he's not fit to do a job, but it isn't the ultimate barrier in itself, and of course which job will have different demands.

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The age coupled with 77 hours a week is the problem.

Johnnythespider said:

The point about fitness is for me more in relation to the mental ability, reaction times and the like. My father in law is 84 and fit as a fiddle, goes swimming every morning and is as active as it comes for that age but if you look at his car there are bumps and scrapes all over it, mostly from parking it in his garage it has to be said but his wife is reluctant to get in the car with him. No one will ever convince me that a 77 year old is mentally fit to drive a bus full of people. Having said all that i think the bus company is at least 90% responsible.

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My father was terrible in the end, but he kept the car until he died at 93... occasionally sneaking out to drive to the shops when we weren’t around. You could not tell him he was too old.

Grendel said:

Age clearly prohibits activities it’s not descrimination

Can you have a 77 year old fireman?

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If he was fit and healthy then why not? There would have to be medical proof that that individual is unfit to conduct that role

Covstu said:

If he was fit and healthy then why not? There would have to be medical proof that that individual is unfit to conduct that role

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There was plenty of evidence he wasn't up to it & he was taking on far too much but the Bus Company management were inadequate & incompetent and did not stop him endangering passengers lives.

martcov said:

I see we went through the times in Oktober 2017. I am on a 45 minute break now. I have to have a card with me recording all times. My employer ( which I don’t have as selfemployed ) is supposed to keep the daily print outs from the tachometer. If you break the rules the „incidents“ are highlighted with exclamation marks for the employer to see. The employer is at least as guilty as they had to be aware of his hours.

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As mentioned in earlier posts. Bus Drivers come under GB Domestic Rules.
A driver can be on duty (at work but not always driving) for 16 hours . He can Drive for 5 and 1/2 hour continuously (compared to 4 1/2 hours for Coach & Lorry drivers on EU taco rules) and is only required to have a break of 1/2 hour (compared to 45mins EU taco rules). Weekly driving time can be 19 days continuous with a 24 hour rest, again completely different to EU taco rules.
This 19 day can be twisted into more. So a driver could do a 5am - 1pm shift on Thursday and start work on Friday at 2pm- Legally he has had a 25 hour rest and start his 19 days again, but you have not realistically had a day off work.

From what I was told by older drivers from the 'Midland Red' days, GB Domestic rules were bought in before taco rules during 1960's, Long after the M1 was opened, but around about the time 70mph speed limits were set on the motorways. Mainly due to some drivers racking up 140 driving hours per week (the old guys used to boast on their payslip how many hours they would do and try to break that record). But many accidents occurred and so the government stepped in. Tacos were not accepted, when they were introduced to lorries, as pay at that time wasn't going to be increased to compensate the drop in hours worked, so a compromise was agreed that since accidents had dropped significantly there was no need to adopt the taco rules for bus drivers, However to drive at speed along motorways, which requires more concentration, coaches came under taco rules when the EU introduced them.

Covstu said:

If he was fit and healthy then why not? There would have to be medical proof that that individual is unfit to conduct that role

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Under the DVLA all commercial drivers HGV or PSV must have a medical every 5 years after 45 years of age. Your commercial part of the licence expires when you are 45 and can only be renewed by passing a medical. You will notice that also happens with your car licence - expire when you reach 70, you then need a medical to renew it.

However when you reach 60 or 65 your HGV/PSV medical becomes annual.

I have known a few driver discover they were diabetic at 45 and loose there commercial licence but kept there car licence.

Also to be noted public buses do not have taco. They are controlled by the timetable. Each driver must have a printed running board in the bus, Just a small section of timetable set for that bus. Driver usually draw lines on that timetable to remind them when their time in that bus is over and when a new driver takes over the bus. Because that bus will usually do the same run every day, that running card is laminated to use the next day, and every day until they change the timetable.
People in the offices are using computers now to ensure the duties (shifts) comply with the law.
If the police pull over a bus the police will ask to see your running board and licence, however a coach driver will be required to show the last 7 - 14 days tachographs and drivers licence.

However smaller coach companies which run bus services in tachograph coaches will operate under the EU taco rules.

I don't know the ins and outs of this driver as I worked at Nuneaton depot. But it could be possible he was on a cover shift starting at 5am that morning and nothing came up driving wise and could be on duty for up to 16 hours, meaning his shift has to finish at 9pm, at Nuneaton on '5oclock (morning) show up' (a driver cover shift in case of driver not turning up due to sickness) we would finish at 1pm but could finish much later if you were covering a sick drivers shift, However we also had a '6o'clock (morning)' & '2o'clock (afternoon show up)' who would usually finish that sick drivers shift.

Captain Dart said:

There was plenty of evidence he wasn't up to it & he was taking on far too much but the Bus Company management were inadequate & incompetent and did not stop him endangering passengers lives.

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don't doubt it but Gren's question was specifically about a random 77yr fireman. The company in question should have adequate OH services to assess this...

Covstu said:

don't doubt it but Gren's question was specifically about a random 77yr fireman. The company in question should have adequate OH services to assess this...

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The bus company would be breaking the law by not accepting people work after retirement. The company uses the medical as a fit enough reason to employ them. Good drivers are actually hard to find. Most drivers pack up after 3 years due to changing shifts (most companies who put you through a £1000 bus driving test will deduct this from you wages pro-rata if you leave before 2 or 3 years). This is not like most jobs 6am-2pm one week, 2-10, 10-6 etc. At Nuneaton I would generally have one week earlies various times between 5-9am start. Monday could be 5am, Tuesday 8.23am, Wednesday 6.28am, Thursday 7.59am, Friday 5.15am, next week 9-12 start and the following week later starts 12pm-3pm starts, but each day would start at different times. we had about 30 different shift patterns. Sunday rota about every 4 - 6 weeks. People get pissed off with so many changes. This driver I believe had been with company a long time, so didn't wine about the shifts as much as newer drivers. However it is also a cultural thing that Asian drivers want to drive as long as possible, We had 3 drivers over 65 at Nuneaton, always volunteering for over time, competing with each other who did the most, they were all Asian, but they would all be worried about failing the medical. All the other drivers as soon as they got to 64 were counting the days to retirement. A manager said to me one time "we have to be careful of the racism card as well as ageist." however this conversation with my manage was over something completely different.

Sumo the Micky Quinn said:

The bus company would be breaking the law by not accepting people work after retirement. .

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Correct

Nick said:

On the other hand you can't let somebody off because of their age.

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I doubt it's just because of his age, Nick. It's more likely to be his health in general, particularly if he's in a state where he wouldn't be able to follow or understand proceedings.

It feels right, to me at least, to have a trial of fact so that the whole situation is exposed.

Personally I can't help but feel sympathy for everyone involved. The chap was clearly working far beyond his capabilities, it sounds like management should have seen enough in his recent record to spot that. I'm not entirely sure that all of the right people are on trial at the moment.

Covstu said:

don't doubt it but Gren's question was specifically about a random 77yr fireman. The company in question should have adequate OH services to assess this...

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That's in part a stupid question just aimed at elucidating an admission that jobs are limited by age & fitness, but ignoring the degree to which each type of job is effected.
A fireman's job requires very high physical fitness & strength, a bus driver much less so, a charity shop till assistant even less.

From what I'm reading the company does not have an adequate review system in place, they treat all drivers the same but anyone past 60 should really have a more thorough check in my opinion. Furthermore the managers ignored the red flags, not one of them took the initiative to impose reasonable limits, I suspect they did not really look at the facts & left action someone else.

He was too old to drive a bus. He was working way too many hours.
If the current laws allow the above, they need to be changed.
We're talking about a vehicle that is large, difficult to manoevre, and carries a lot of people, including the elderly and children.
In my opinion, the bus company bears about 50% responsibility.
The driver also bears about 50% responsibility, since he should have been aware he was in no fit state to drive.

Driver found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. No other result after seeing evidence stacked against him in court.

Beware the following clip shows video footage of the accident.
Cov bus crash: CCTV shows people fleeing for their lives

What the fuck? It's a miracle more weren't killed.

That's not a little slip on the wrong pedal.

Sumo the Micky Quinn said:

Driver found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. No other result after seeing evidence stacked against him in court.

Beware the following clip shows video footage of the accident.
Cov bus crash: CCTV shows people fleeing for their lives

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That lad warning people in the last video is an absolute life saver!

Sumo the Micky Quinn said:

Driver found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. No other result after seeing evidence stacked against him in court.

Beware the following clip shows video footage of the accident.
Cov bus crash: CCTV shows people fleeing for their lives

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Bloody hell.

Nick said:

What the fuck? It's a miracle more weren't killed.

That's not a little slip on the wrong pedal.

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No way. Seems like he knew what he was doing.

I_Saw_Shaw_Score said:

That lad warning people in the last video is an absolute life saver!

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Bloody hero. Well done him.

He clearly pulls out then straight on to the pavement like he was trying to run someone over ( you can see one or two people jumping out of the way)..... i thought until i saw the footage that he lost control on the bend. Gobsmacked.