Do you want to discuss boring politics? (22 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

It's nothing to do with reform
Why is that the instant go to?

Cause that’s the mantra
Everything is broken
We can’t do anything about it
We are so hard done to
And it’s bollox there’s loads that’s not bad and more if we open our eyes to see it and be grateful for what we have

that’s my new year

health
Family
Job
House
Central heating
Footie team top of the league
Love
Faith
Food
Clothes

it’s easy once you start

 

---

[Nick]

Cause that’s the mantra
Everything is broken
We can’t do anything about it
We are so hard done to
And it’s bollox there’s loads that’s not bad and more if we open our eyes to see it and be grateful for what we have

that’s my new year

health
Family
Job
House
Central heating
Footie team top of the league
Love
Faith
Food
Clothes

it’s easy once you start

What on earth are you on about?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What on earth are you on about?

Lol
Jus annoyed at everyone doing down everything and doing fuck all about making it better

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sorry but that’s bollocks. Labour have not been great but it’s all standard stuff we’re used to.

What’s bollocks in particular?

 

[Nick]

Lol
Jus annoyed at everyone doing down everything and doing fuck all about making it better

"Something is worse under labour"
"That's just something from reform or Twitter"
"Farage"
"You should be fixing it"

Madness.

 

[djr8369]

What’s bollocks in particular?

That the Tory government didn’t make this many u-turns and unforced errors in 14 years. I mean the Johnson government was chaos and the Truss government imploded in weeks.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

That the Tory government didn’t make this many u-turns and unforced errors in 14 years. I mean the Johnson government was chaos and the Truss government imploded in weeks.

Unforced errors, yes I should’ve clarified that. But U-turns, I can’t think of too many high profile ones. I’m sure there will be a few examples but compared to this government - the speed of which Starmer’s government has introduced a policy to then U-turn is staggering. It’s something that’s a major gripe of the Labour-leaning sources I refer too.

I’m no friend of the Tory party. Natural ‘ally’ in theory but like the Lib Dems in 2010, this lot have broken the trust.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Unforced errors, yes I should’ve clarified that. But U-turns, I can’t think of too many high profile ones. I’m sure there will be a few examples but compared to this government - the speed of which Starmer’s government has introduced a policy to then U-turn is staggering. It’s something that’s a major gripe of the Labour-leaning sources I refer too.

I’m no friend of the Tory party. Natural ‘ally’ in theory but like the Lib Dems in 2010, this lot have broken the trust.

And there’s not been one bit of hysteria?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

And there’s not been one bit of hysteria?

No, the anger has been building up for years. To some extent, Labour is a victim of circumstances but their policy program hugely unpopular.

Several friends and family who voted Labour and the only person who doesn’t regret is a Labour Member.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

No, the anger has been building up for years. To some extent, Labour is a victim of circumstances but their policy program hugely unpopular.

Several friends and family who voted Labour and the only person who doesn’t regret is a Labour Member.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing
Who do they wish they’d voted for? The conservatives?
I agree with the victim of circumstances
We really are at a cross roads as a nation. Think gove started it with no experts needed into Brexit and Covid and now everyone thinks they can do everyone else’s job better than they can do their own
I can see how reform will be just as bad and worse but in different ways from the career politicians who fundamentally we respected for wanting to serve but now see they are in it for themselves not on the level of lady mone and other rich grifters

Don’t see how democracy survives the changes being led by tech giants and ai. Not sure Starmer or Labour could have done anything to stem the tide

Will just have to focus more on me and my family and friends and my community and my sphere of influence cos I sure as hell can’t do anything to stop the juggernaut from destroying much of what we are proud of as Brits

Justice
Fairness
Compassion
Kindness

 

[CCFCSteve]

No, the anger has been building up for years. To some extent, Labour is a victim of circumstances but their policy program hugely unpopular.

Several friends and family who voted Labour and the only person who doesn’t regret is a Labour Member.

We’ve had the last few years of Tory infighting and getting fuck all done albeit challenging times during Covid (inexcusable mess after). Then moved onto a Labour goverment with promises of growth, positivity and no more taxes rises/helping the household squeeze but ultimately they just cracked on with further infighting and ideological stuff….with nothing to improve growth and everyone paying more into the pot

If they don’t focus on improving the lives of the many they’re in trouble but it’s still early days to be fair.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If they don’t focus on improving the lives of the many they’re in trouble but it’s still early days to be fair.

Well, they'll be halfway through come the end of this year and it seems the best thing they could do would be to boot the deeply unpopular Starmer...but replace him with who?

 

[Grendel]

Well, they'll be halfway through come the end of this year and it seems the best thing they could do would be to boot the deeply unpopular Starmer...but replace him with who?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This one's a bit too cryptic for me old chap

 

[Grendel]

This one's a bit too cryptic for me old chap

Strangely I put Wes Streeting into Gif search and this was the first image

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Strangely I put Wes Streeting into Gif search and this was the first image

Really? that’s so funny

 

[mmttww]

this was the first image

checks out - a lot of Sesame Street content in there...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

We’ve had the last few years of Tory infighting and getting fuck all done albeit challenging times during Covid (inexcusable mess after). Then moved onto a Labour goverment with promises of growth, positivity and no more taxes rises/helping the household squeeze but ultimately they just cracked on with further infighting and ideological stuff….with nothing to improve growth and everyone paying more into the pot

If they don’t focus on improving the lives of the many they’re in trouble but it’s still early days to be fair.

I genuinely believe that Starmer and the Labour Party thought they’d swan into government and everything will just get better.

So did much of the commentariat with the ‘the adults are back in charge’ sentiment that proved to be plainly wrong.

The Tories deserved to be thrashed and so do Labour at the current trajectory. Both parties seem, more or less like “two cheeks of the same arse”. This largely explains why the party politics have fragmented and the subsequent rise of Reform and the Greens from the fringes.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I genuinely believe that Starmer and the Labour Party thought they’d swan into government and everything will just get better.

So did much of the commentariat with the ‘the adults are back in charge’ sentiment that proved to be plainly wrong.

The Tories deserved to be thrashed and so do Labour at the current trajectory. Both parties seem, more or less like “two cheeks of the same arse”. This largely explains why the party politics have fragmented and the subsequent rise of Reform and the Greens from the fringes.

I think there is as wide a gap between Tories and Labour as there’s been for a while (welfare/two child benefit cap, tax, energy, EU etc)

The similarity, which appears to be why they’re getting lumped in together, is that they both appear to be trying to operate within an economic reality that Reform and Greens currently aren’t. Actually, they also appear to be in a similar place on defence.

Both are lacking ‘a plan’ for the country though

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think there is as wide a gap between Tories and Labour as there’s been for a while (welfare/two child benefit cap, tax, energy, EU etc)

The similarity, which appears to be why they’re getting lumped in together, is that they both appear to be trying to operate within an economic reality that Reform and Greens currently aren’t. Actually, they also appear to be in a similar place on defence.

Both are lacking ‘a plan’ for the country though

Respectfully disagree. In my view, we’re at a juncture where the Blairite consensus is on its very last legs and Reform and the Greens are the chief beneficiaries of that because they’re trying to articulate an alternative route for the country.

Clement Attlee opposed joining the EC because it would lead to a ‘dictatorship of civil servants’ and looking at how the country has been governed since 1997 in particular, it does feel like the civil service and quangos are currently holding the whip hand.

Even if you despise him, seeing what Dominic Cummings has to say about how government is actually run is insightful. Even Starmer and his government have come out that they agree with his analysis by and large.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Respectfully disagree. In my view, we’re at a juncture where the Blairite consensus is on its very last legs and Reform and the Greens are the chief beneficiaries of that because they’re trying to articulate an alternative route for the country.

Clement Attlee opposed joining the EC because it would lead to a ‘dictatorship of civil servants’ and looking at how the country has been governed since 1997 in particularly, it does feel like the civil service and quangos are currently holding the whip hand.

Even if you despise him, seeing what Dominic Cummings has to say about how government is actually run is insightful. Even Starmer and his government have come out that they agree with his analysis by and large.

What are civil servants and quangos stopping? Which quangos are you referring to?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

What are civil servants and quangos stopping? Which quangos are you referring to?

The OBR on the economy, for example. I’m sure we’d both agree that it should be scrapped.

The same ‘politically impartial’ civil servants that have said they’d resign if Reform were in government.

If you believe Cummings and people like Lord Frost, they froze the civil service out of Brexit negotiations because of briefings against the government itself.

 

[chiefdave]

The similarity, which appears to be why they’re getting lumped in together, is that they both appear to be trying to operate within an economic reality that Reform and Greens currently aren’t.

Both are lacking ‘a plan’ for the country though

This is the heart of the problem for me. We've had, what, 45 years of neoliberalism. Its run its course but nobody has a clue what comes next.

So the likes of Reform, Greens and other minority parties gain popularity because they're the only ones offering an alternative. The question then becomes is that alternative they are promising actually a unicorn and if it is what is an alternative that could actually work in reality.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The OBR on the economy, for example. I’m sure we’d both agree that it should be scrapped.

The same ‘politically impartial’ civil servants that have said they’d resign if Reform were in government.

If you believe Cummings and people like Lord Frost, they froze the civil service out of Brexit negotiations because of briefings against the government itself.

Agree on OBR

Given the wank deal the UK has and the huge uplift in spending resulting from it, I am not sure it demonstrates Cummings' point very well at all.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Agree on OBR

Given the wank deal the UK has and the huge uplift in spending resulting from it, I am not sure it demonstrates Cummings' point very well at all.

The OBR is one of many unelected quangos that is steering government policy.

Just out of curiosity, have you actually listened to what Cummings has had to say on the topic? One podcast pretty much sums up his views because he rams home the same points.

It’s easy to dismiss him as being politically bias to distance himself from his failures in the Boris government. To some extent, I agree with your comments previously about being ‘bad faith’. Yet, when Keir Starmer and, on the grapevine, McSweeney agreeing with the analysis of Cummings leans me into the camp that perhaps, he’s actually right.

Cummings one pertinent point was that procurement scandals lead to prosecutions in Pitt’s days… thinking back to COVID, how was Matt Hancock not prosecuted for the dodgy contracts he gave out? There’s no real ministerial accountability anymore and Cummings central claim is that the cabinet office has neutered government ministers - ‘fake meetings with fake outcomes’.

Even John Powell, Blair’s chief of staff and author of ‘The New Machiavelli’, has expressed similar criticisms in a more diplomatic way. If all these people who have been at the centre of government say similar things, it’s a good sign there’s fundamental reform needed.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The OBR is one of many unelected quangos that is steering government policy.

Just out of curiosity, have you actually listened to what Cummings has had to say on the topic? One podcast pretty much sums up his views because he rams home the same points.

It’s easy to dismiss him as being politically bias to distance himself from his failures in the Boris government. To some extent, I agree with your comments previously about being ‘bad faith’. Yet, when Keir Starmer and, on the grapevine, McSweeney agreeing with the analysis of Cummings leans me into the camp that perhaps, he’s actually right.

Cummings one pertinent point was that procurement scandals lead to prosecutions in Pitt’s days… thinking back to COVID, how was Matt Hancock not prosecuted for the dodgy contracts he gave out? There’s no real ministerial accountability anymore and Cummings central claim is that the cabinet office has neutered government ministers - ‘fake meetings with fake outcomes’.

Even John Powell, Blair’s chief of staff and author of ‘The New Machiavelli’, has expressed similar criticisms in a more diplomatic way. If all these people who have been at the centre of government say similar things, it’s a good sign there’s fundamental reform needed.

Send me a link and I'll have a listen.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Send me a link and I'll have a listen.

This one is a two part series. It is a soft touch interview to be fair because Cummings worked with Gove in the DoE.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

checks out - a lot of Sesame Street content in there...

Why is Elmo getting noshed off by a dog?

 

[The Philosopher]

The political split has become much easier to see now and in a strange twist has partially reversed.

20/30 years ago, folks in the private sector / employed eg. manual workers, white van man, railway workers etc “working class” = Labour and they made up a large section of society, often in unions. There’s no “Trades Union” members anymore, just teachers, nurses and civil servants - not Unions who stand up to unscrupulous big business owners, people who instead try to get more out of the tax fund provided by working taxpayers. The gulf in standards between private sector pay and conditions and public sector is huge. (Waits for some chump to say “we need to make all jobs have huge rights and benefits”. - clue - employers are stretched beyond as is and we will just see more firms fail).

Contributors v. Non-contributors has tipped. Non-contributors (government staff, schoolchildren, pensioners etc.) is a growing element along with the “I’ve got mentel ‘elf innit” youth. (Look not all, but too many taking the p-**+)

So now we have a huge part of society with a false view of the economic realities.

The civil service is bloated beyond belief. The NHS is hugely inefficient and we plunge ourselves into deeper debt whilst people jump round with “refugees welcome signs” (do we think those are contributor types?)

The split:

Those who get money from the government (civil servants, NHS, unemployed)

Those who get money from private enterprise.

Latter is shrinking and fed up with non-contributors who often spout nonsense and vote left.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The political split has become much easier to see now and in a strange twist has partially reversed.

20/30 years ago, folks in the private sector / employed eg. manual workers, white van man, railway workers etc “working class” = Labour and they made up a large section of society, often in unions. There’s no “Trades Union” members anymore, just teachers, nurses and civil servants - not Unions who stand up to unscrupulous big business owners, people who instead try to get more out of the tax fund provided by working taxpayers. The gulf in standards between private sector pay and conditions and public sector is huge. (Waits for some chump to say “we need to make all jobs have huge rights and benefits”. - clue - employers are stretched beyond as is and we will just see more firms fail).

Contributors v. Non-contributors has tipped. Non-contributors (government staff, schoolchildren, pensioners etc.) is a growing element along with the “I’ve got mentel ‘elf innit” youth. (Look not all, but too many taking the p-**+)

So now we have a huge part of society with a false view of the economic realities.

The civil service is bloated beyond belief. The NHS is hugely inefficient and we plunge ourselves into deeper debt whilst people jump round with “refugees welcome signs” (do we think those are contributor types?)

The split:

Those who get money from the government (civil servants, NHS, unemployed)

Those who get money from private enterprise.

Latter is shrinking and fed up with non-contributors who often spout nonsense and vote left.

There's no TU members because TU's have been decimated. Basically every time they try and stand up for their workers the govt makes whatever they're doing illegal. It's harder to go on strike than it is to form a government.

As for WVM being traditional Labour - they've always been more right wing and would have preferred Tory-style policy.

For the NHS being inefficient, once again I defy you to find a private enterprise, give it the scope and scale of the NHS and make it more efficient and provide that level of service for the same level of funding. They just wouldn't be able to do it.

I think you ought to look up how much private enterprise, especially very large companies, get from the government in subsidies, tax breaks and also from govt contracts.

And if employers in private enterprise are stretched as it is, why do they bother then? Because they still make a decent living from it. We have firms claiming they can't afford wage increases etc. while paying out huge sums in dividends - they can afford it, they just choose not to.

 

[fatso]

Agree on OBR

Given the wank deal the UK has and the huge uplift in spending resulting from it, I am not sure it demonstrates Cummings' point very well at all.

The UK didn't get the deal that Cummings wanted. The civil service tried to undermine the Brexit deal at every turn.

As much as I think Cummins is a horrible c**t, its very hard to argue with his political opinions.
It also goes to show what a shit job Johnson did in office. He had a 80+ seat majority and could of completely reformed the whole civil service and brought in younger highly motivated talent, who wanted to build a better UK outside the dominant beurocrats of Brussels.
But instead he totally bottled it and refused to rock the boat.

 

[fatso]

Oh look @LarryGrayson being a bell end again.

Im loving living rent free in your head.

 

[CovValleyBoy]

What are civil servants and quangos stopping? Which quangos are you referring to?

Said the civil servant who's Mrs heads up a Quango.

 

[PVA]

Unforced errors, yes I should’ve clarified that. But U-turns, I can’t think of too many high profile ones. I’m sure there will be a few examples but compared to this government - the speed of which Starmer’s government has introduced a policy to then U-turn is staggering. It’s something that’s a major gripe of the Labour-leaning sources I refer too.

I’m no friend of the Tory party. Natural ‘ally’ in theory but like the Lib Dems in 2010, this lot have broken the trust.

The Johnson government was U-turning about 26 times a week at the 'peak' of his premiership.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The OBR is one of many unelected quangos that is steering government policy.

Just out of curiosity, have you actually listened to what Cummings has had to say on the topic? One podcast pretty much sums up his views because he rams home the same points.

It’s easy to dismiss him as being politically bias to distance himself from his failures in the Boris government. To some extent, I agree with your comments previously about being ‘bad faith’. Yet, when Keir Starmer and, on the grapevine, McSweeney agreeing with the analysis of Cummings leans me into the camp that perhaps, he’s actually right.

Cummings one pertinent point was that procurement scandals lead to prosecutions in Pitt’s days… thinking back to COVID, how was Matt Hancock not prosecuted for the dodgy contracts he gave out? There’s no real ministerial accountability anymore and Cummings central claim is that the cabinet office has neutered government ministers - ‘fake meetings with fake outcomes’.

Even John Powell, Blair’s chief of staff and author of ‘The New Machiavelli’, has expressed similar criticisms in a more diplomatic way. If all these people who have been at the centre of government say similar things, it’s a good sign there’s fundamental reform needed.

I assume by ‘reform’ you mean sacking loads of people. Have the courage to at least say that.