Do you want to discuss boring politics? (11 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

Nearly everyone in the country wants the wealthiest to pay more. If you can find a wealth tax that will generate significant revenue (and not lead to an exodus of the very richest) then I’d be all for it. Out of interest and from what you’ve read, what would your proposal be and how much would it generate ? (I’m not being funny about that by the way, just trying to understand how much it would help our current predicament)

It’s so hard to find a clear picture on wealth inequality which takes into account asset values, inflation, changing demographics, population increases etc etc. We all know the very richest have got a lot wealthier though and at least partly due to population increase of a number of low paid migrants and more on welfare, I’d imagine there’s likely been an increase in the number of poorest

As I’ve said before, all I’m seeing is the majority of normal working people paying more and getting less for their public services. Unless we can show we have a semblance of control over public spending (welfare/pensions are forecast to balloon), we will continue to pay more for debt and unless we grow significantly, the situation will continue to spiral. If the government/left continues to ignore this problem any wealth tax will likely be a drop in the ocean.

Ps nobody knows for sure about the potential exodus of non doms and apparently we won’t do until self assessments are submitted in a year or twos time

No one is picking up and taking their multi-million properties portfolios out of the country are they?

There’s somewhere to start.

 

---

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No one is picking up and taking their multi-million properties portfolios out of the country are they?

There’s somewhere to start.

There are valid arguments to reform council tax (and stamp duty) with some sort of land value tax. A lot of other countries have something similar.

Which is much easier to administer than a ‘wealth tax’ which has the effect of driving off wealth and therefore the tax base.

 

[mmttww]

There are valid arguments to reform council tax (and stamp duty) with some sort of land value tax. A lot of other countries have something similar.

With you on that and the whole tax system could use a kicking tbf. Having business rates in a Temu world is mad to me for a start!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

With you on that and the whole tax system could use a kicking tbf. Having business rates in a Temu world is mad to me for a start!

Safe to say that British governments in general are like chundering great oil tankers, far too slow to react to what's going on around them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

With you on that and the whole tax system could use a kicking tbf. Having business rates in a Temu world is mad to me for a start!

VAT for brick and mortar retail sites needs to be reduced. The high street is obviously doomed to fail if they have the same VAT as online marketplaces but with the overheads a store has v a warehouse in the middle of nowhere.

In Portugal, their hospitality sector pays 7.5% VAT on food and drink which is why it’s so cheap to eat out there. Tim Martin (Wetherspoons owner( is lobbying aggressively for lower VAT and I 100% agree with him. Supermarkets can price alcohol so low because the 0% rated goods it sells can effectively subsidise ‘sin’ products.

We all remember ‘Eat out to help out’ during the pandemic and the lower VAT rates sparked more activity.

Safe to say that British governments in general are like chundering great oil tankers, far too slow to react to what's going on around them.

That and the OBR also does not take into account the various ‘multiplier effects’ that take place with tax cuts. It’s overstated the revenues raised from various taxes (like private school levy + employers NI) raises and not considered the risk of insolvencies for SMEs (2,048 in August = job losses and high welfare payments).

Imagine if the government categorised retail and hospital as reduced VAT (5-10% whatever) it assume losses that need to be filled because the tax rate is lower.

Say if restaurants/food outlets could charge 10% VAT, that makes a big difference to the cost of living.

^ same with energy bills, scrap VAT on fuel and it’s a ‘Brexit benefit’ that positively impacts everyone.

In fairness, to do any of these ‘nice stuff’ the public finances need to get back on track. Today’s news on the government borrowing more than expected is ominous going into the budget season.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

VAT for brick and mortar retail sites needs to be reduced. The high street is obviously doomed to fail if they have the same VAT as online marketplaces but with the overheads a store has v a warehouse in the middle of nowhere.

In Portugal, their hospitality sector pays 7.5% VAT on food and drink which is why it’s so cheap to eat out there. Tim Martin (Wetherspoons owner( is lobbying aggressively for lower VAT and I 100% agree with him. Supermarkets can price alcohol so low because the 0% rated goods it sells can effectively subsidise ‘sin’ products.

We all remember ‘Eat out to help out’ during the pandemic and the lower VAT rates sparked more activity.



That and the OBR also does not take into account the various ‘multiplier effects’ that take place with tax cuts. It’s overstated the revenues raised from various taxes (like private school levy + employers NI) raises and not considered the risk of insolvencies for SMEs (2,048 in August = job losses and high welfare payments).

Imagine if the government categorised retail and hospital as reduced VAT (5-10% whatever) it assume losses that need to be filled because the tax rate is lower.

Say if restaurants/food outlets could charge 10% VAT, that makes a big difference to the cost of living.

^ same with energy bills, scrap VAT on fuel and it’s a ‘Brexit benefit’ that positively impacts everyone.

In fairness, to do any of these ‘nice stuff’ the public finances need to get back on track. Today’s news on the government borrowing more than expected is ominous going into the budget season.

You’re preaching to the converted on VAT. A tax that hurts most and benefits few from my perspective.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It's the standing at the gates approaching kids that I find weird. Obviously some on here think that's ok but I'm not surprised.

If it was somebody arranging a talk or something at a college then that's a bit different.

The difference is Kirk actually sat down with people and debated them as well. They were organised events, and there are tons of videos of him having quite amicable exchanges with people that clearly had complete opposite opinions.

Who on the left does anything like that? There's no open conversation whatsoever, which is part of their problem. The closest people (used lightly) I can think of is Hasan Abi or Destiny, but one is basically a communist sympathiser and the other in trouble for sex offences, as well as being a genuine cuckold.

Loitering around school gates is sadly more in line with their approach.

 

[SBAndy]

There are valid arguments to reform council tax (and stamp duty) with some sort of land value tax. A lot of other countries have something similar.

Which is much easier to administer than a ‘wealth tax’ which has the effect of driving off wealth and therefore the tax base.

Which is by its nature a wealth tax i.e. you’re making it more costly to own assets with a sliding scale based on value. You seem to think it’s just a case of picking a rate to charge billionaires on their share portfolio.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

With Labour slipping in the polls, I came across this electoral map which appears to show the Lib Dem’s would be the official opposition if an election was held.

Obviously this isn’t what would happen, there were polls showing LD overtaking Tory in 2024 but paints a bleak picture for Labour & Tory.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The difference is Kirk actually sat down with people and debated them as well. They were organised events, and there are tons of videos of him having quite amicable exchanges with people that clearly had complete opposite opinions.

Who on the left does anything like that? There's no open conversation whatsoever, which is part of their problem. The closest people (used lightly) I can think of is Hasan Abi or Destiny, but one is basically a communist sympathiser and the other in trouble for sex offences, as well as being a genuine cuckold.

Loitering around school gates is sadly more in line with their approach.

Mehdi Hasan for one.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Another week in the UK. It really is concerning how fucked we are at this point.

 

[chiefdave]

Mehdi Hasan for one.

First one that came to mind for me as well it was recent. But it's just another illustration that people are happy in their bubbles and will declare what they think is the truth as fact.

Not to pick out Earlsdon as it happens all the time across the political spectrum but it would take seconds to find out that "Who on the left does anything like that? There's no open conversation whatsoever, which is part of their problem." wasn't true but nobody can be bothered these days.

 

[chiefdave]

Have to say I'm very disappointed in you all. The way things were going earlier I was sure by the time I got home someone would have said we can't tax the rich because their money trickles down to the rest of us.

 

[Sick Boy]

First one that came to mind for me as well it was recent. But it's just another illustration that people are happy in their bubbles and will declare what they think is the truth as fact.

Not to pick out Earlsdon as it happens all the time across the political spectrum but it would take seconds to find out that "Who on the left does anything like that? There's no open conversation whatsoever, which is part of their problem." wasn't true but nobody can be bothered these days.

What a bunch of cucks.

 

[TomRad85]

Another week in the UK. It really is concerning how fucked we are at this point.

Just another totally normal one in the UK (United Kuckdom.)

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

First one that came to mind for me as well it was recent. But it's just another illustration that people are happy in their bubbles and will declare what they think is the truth as fact.

Not to pick out Earlsdon as it happens all the time across the political spectrum but it would take seconds to find out that "Who on the left does anything like that? There's no open conversation whatsoever, which is part of their problem." wasn't true but nobody can be bothered these days.

A few others who come to mind, but mostly just on YouTube.

 

[chiefdave]

Lol at Corbyn and Sultana’s party already coming apart at the seams

Good news for some people it seems

Green party membership surges after public split between Corbyn and Sultana

Almost 1,400 people sign up in 24 hours to increase party membership by 10% since Zack Polanski’s leadership win this month

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Which is by its nature a wealth tax i.e. you’re making it more costly to own assets with a sliding scale based on value. You seem to think it’s just a case of picking a rate to charge billionaires on their share portfolio.

Property taxes and wealth taxes aren’t the same. Council tax is basically a v outdated version of property taxes.

The proponents of a wealth tax haven’t considered how to calculate tax owed from wealth either. A lot of ‘wealth’ is fluid i.e. a stock portfolio or the value of company. What happens if assets lose value? Will people get rebates?

Would a wealth tax be applied to businesses or individuals? If the latter, then ‘wealth’ could be transferred to limited companies and the former would have bad economic outcomes for employment, investment and so on.

There are so many problems with implementation and administering such a tax, it will fail.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Good news for some people it seems

Green party membership surges after public split between Corbyn and Sultana

Almost 1,400 people sign up in 24 hours to increase party membership by 10% since Zack Polanski’s leadership win this month

www.theguardian.com

I’ve seen a ‘theory’ that this public spat has been engineered to promote the Green Party. Frankly, the concept of a new populist left party was baffling when the Greens existed in the first place. Across Europe the Green parties are either eco-socialists or part of a broader coalition of left wing & green parties (SYRIZA + Mechalon’s party).

There’s definitely appetite for a party that offers an economically ‘left populist’ platform. Unfortunately for those idealist, there’s also an appetite to roll back mass migration which left wing parties (bar Denmark) tend to reject strongly.

 

[SBAndy]

Property taxes and wealth taxes aren’t the same. Council tax is basically a v outdated version of property taxes.

The proponents of a wealth tax haven’t considered how to calculate tax owed from wealth either. A lot of ‘wealth’ is fluid i.e. a stock portfolio or the value of company. What happens if assets lose value? Will people get rebates?

Would a wealth tax be applied to businesses or individuals? If the latter, then ‘wealth’ could be transferred to limited companies and the former would have bad economic outcomes for employment, investment and so on.

There are so many problems with implementation and administering such a tax, it will fail.

You’re not interested in a discussion on this, as has been shown many times, so pointless wasting my energy.

 

[duffer]

Nearly everyone in the country wants the wealthiest to pay more. If you can find a wealth tax that will generate significant revenue (and not lead to an exodus of the very richest) then I’d be all for it. Out of interest and from what you’ve read, what would your proposal be and how much would it generate ? (I’m not being funny about that by the way, just trying to understand how much it would help our current predicament)

It’s so hard to find a clear picture on wealth inequality which takes into account asset values, inflation, changing demographics, population increases etc etc. We all know the very richest have got a lot wealthier though and at least partly due to population increase of a number of low paid migrants and more on welfare, I’d imagine there’s likely been an increase in the number of poorest

As I’ve said before, all I’m seeing is the majority of normal working people paying more and getting less for their public services. Unless we can show we have a semblance of control over public spending (welfare/pensions are forecast to balloon), we will continue to pay more for debt and unless we grow significantly, the situation will continue to spiral. If the government/left continues to ignore this problem any wealth tax will likely be a drop in the ocean.

Ps nobody knows for sure about the potential exodus of non doms and apparently we won’t do until self assessments are submitted in a year or twos time

Billionaires/multi-millionaires don’t get rich by earning an income. It’s all in assets and the wealth is in many cases ‘paper value’. For example, Elon funds his lifestyle by taking loans out with his shares as collateral. The idea of taxing ‘assets’ continuously is pretty pernicious and generally doesn’t have the desired effects (see countries that have wealth taxes or Wales’ taxes on 2nd homes).
Wealth inequality isn’t in of itself a bad thing, like anything, too much of it is a bad thing.

The economic model needs remodelling. Mass migration has coincided with GDP per capita declining, this is something the ‘New Left’ has completely neglected - old trade unionists were against ‘freedom of movement’. Thats one issue.

Historians/economists will look at quantitive easing very unkindly. The asset boom has meant house prices have stayed above inflation and wage increases which has (and still) hollowed out the middle class.

Another is productivity and wage stagnation. For context, the median salary would be £51k had things steadily increased from 2008 levels of growth.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad is a v good book that explains spending habits of middle class v the rich.



The purpose of a tax is to raise revenue…

Wealth taxes aren’t a new idea, Labour looked into in the 1970s. France implemented this under Hollande and raised not a lot of money. Why? There’s a lot of admin involved in determining ‘wealth’ i.e. the sum of one’s assets

In the v narrow example you used, the problem isn’t ‘hoarding’. In fact, the Welsh government clamped down on 2nd home ownership and this hasn’t had the desired impact. That is, making houses more affordable for local residents. This is because the values of the houses are still too high. The fundamental issue is that demand exceeds supply and house building has not kept up with population growth. House building targets that aren’t being met are based on net migration of 300k. All in all, the housing deficit is well over £1m and a disproportionate of social housing is going to non-UK citizens - on housing in particular, immigration needs to be addressed and ‘the left’ parties have not accepted this. Hence, working class voters across Europe and the USA have opted for anti-immigration parties who tend to be to the right. Years of QE have also made credit abundant and cheap which has inflated the values of property.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but wealth taxes is a fundamentally dumb policy. Particularly when the people targeted (the top 10%) make up c. 60% of all tax revenue.

There's an awful lot of assumptions and claims here and not a lot of evidence.

Dumb policy? I could just as well say that what's dumb is persisting with this centrist/right wing bollocks of cut, cut , cut your way to growth (but don't hurt the rich). We've been trying that for a while now, and hey, turns out it isn't working very well.

Also, some basic maths, the reason a small proportion of the population pay a large proportion of tax, is that a small proportion of people earn a very significant amount more than the rest of us. If income was more equally distributed then tax base would obviously be broader.

Whilst there's very little actual evidence that supports the idea that there would suddenly be a mass migration of the very wealthy just to avoid tax (see analysis below), what is obvious is that there will be some serious effort to avoid it via loopholes etc..

In case your weren't aware though, that battle has been going on ever since we started taxing people, and yet we don't use it as an excuse for not having taxation.

Again, if the rate of the increase in inequality isn't addressed, then we're going to be in an absolutely ludicrous position within a decade. To fail to even try to address this because it's a bit difficult is madness, and speaks more to some kind of prejudice than an actual rational argument.

The top rate of income tax - British Politics and Policy at LSE

If a new government were to raise the top rate of income tax, it is unlikely that the UK's highest earners will work less hard but it is likely they will try harder to avoid paying tax. That means tougher enforcement will be needed if taxes rise, says Alan Manning. For the latest research articles

blogs.lse.ac.uk

 

[duffer]

There are valid arguments to reform council tax (and stamp duty) with some sort of land value tax. A lot of other countries have something similar.

Which is much easier to administer than a ‘wealth tax’ which has the effect of driving off wealth and therefore the tax base.

Christ. You are obsessed with a fact that it's only in your head. I've literally linked to academic studies that suggest there is no evidence of a mass migration of the very wealthy because of an increase in tax. That's because, by and large they've chosen to live in this country because of the cultural benefits of living here. Paying a proportionally small amount more isn't likely to outweigh those benefits.

You chunter on about 'A' level politics but you haven't made enough of an argument on this to get a CSE grade 4.

As for the other bit, yes it will be difficult to administer, but if you've been self-employed you'll know that doesn't stop the taxman asking for it. Your whole argument is, it'll be difficult so we shouldn't try.

That's not going to fly when inequality continues to rise and everyone else is being asked to tighten their belts.

 

[duffer]

Jeez, what happened to Christ is King? I'll bet Tommy Two-names and his newly religious following are absolutely outraged by the general population's lack of interest in the CofE head honcho.

Or could it be that their recent loud support of (presumably an Anglican) God and the Church is just, well, bullshit?

Majority of Britons do not care who becomes next archbishop of Canterbury, new poll suggests

The Church of England's most senior bishop is expected to be named in the coming weeks - almost a year after Justin Welby resigned over failures in handling a sex abuse scandal.

news.sky.com

 

[fernandopartridge]

Found an old jacket in the bottom of the wardrobe this weekend, it had a receipt in it from October 2020. It confirms why a lot of people are so utterly pissed off. Experienced inflation for people is much worse than official statistics, and when it's your weekly shop very much more noticeable:

According to the BOE inflation calculator, consumer price inflation from 2020 to August 2025 is 28.1%

I have just done a sample of items on the receipt from October 2020 compared with the price of those items today. The rate of inflation is twice that of CPI.

Item	Oct-20​	Sep-25​	Inflation
[EDIT] British rapeseed oil	£ 1.39	£ 2.75	97.84%​
Washing up liquid	£ 0.69	£ 0.95	37.68%​
Bleach	£ 0.39	£ 0.55	41.03%​
Passata	£ 0.32	£ 0.49	53.13%​
Chestnut mushrooms	£ 0.77	£ 0.95	23.38%​
Tomato puree	£ 0.27	£ 0.59	118.52%​
Brocolli	£ 0.49	£ 0.79	61.22%​
Plain flour	£ 0.45	£ 0.70	55.56%​
Choc with salt	£ 1.49	£ 2.39	60.40%​
Cat food	£ 1.89	£ 2.59	37.04%​
	£ 8.15	£ 12.75	56.44%​

Edited post as first line was rapeseed oil not washing liquid. Cheers Dougie!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Jeez, what happened to Christ is King? I'll bet Tommy Two-names and his newly religious following are absolutely outraged by the general population's lack of interest in the CofE head honcho.

Or could it be that their recent loud support of (presumably an Anglican) God and the Church is just, well, bullshit?

Majority of Britons do not care who becomes next archbishop of Canterbury, new poll suggests

The Church of England's most senior bishop is expected to be named in the coming weeks - almost a year after Justin Welby resigned over failures in handling a sex abuse scandal.

news.sky.com

There was me thinking it was only Muslims who got involved in sex abuse scandals.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Jeez, what happened to Christ is King? I'll bet Tommy Two-names and his newly religious following are absolutely outraged by the general population's lack of interest in the CofE head honcho.

Or could it be that their recent loud support of (presumably an Anglican) God and the Church is just, well, bullshit?

Majority of Britons do not care who becomes next archbishop of Canterbury, new poll suggests

The Church of England's most senior bishop is expected to be named in the coming weeks - almost a year after Justin Welby resigned over failures in handling a sex abuse scandal.

news.sky.com

Still baffles me that we give the church a seat in the house of lords, meaning they get influence over acts of parliament. Its archaic, religion really has no place to influence modern society.

 

[SBT]

Still baffles me that we give the church a seat in the house of lords, meaning they get influence over acts of parliament. Its archaic, religion really has no place to influence modern society.

It’s multiple seats, isn’t it?

Starmer was asked by some British reporter during his press conference with Trump about whether Britain was still a Christian country. I can’t imagine that many people not desperately sucking up to US conservatives really care - church attendance certainly doesn’t suggest as much.

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

It’s multiple seats, isn’t it?

Starmer was asked by some British reporter during his press conference with Trump about whether Britain was still a Christian country. I can’t imagine that many people not desperately sucking up to US conservatives really care - church attendance certainly doesn’t suggest as much.

Exactly. It's still fostering divsion, I'm still of the belief that Religion has been a major cause of most of/all the world's issues from the outset.

I'm alright with people practicing religion etc, but It shouldn't be tax exempt and getting kick backs let it themselves. if they go the way of the dodo in this country then so be it.

 

[rob9872]

I think it's fair to say Islam is even more archaic and all religions are in need of modernisation. My belief is that when people refer to Christianity for the country, what they're actually referring to is Christian beliefs but as long as what they're preaching about is peace and respect, then ?I guess most wouldn't have an issue with any religion (as long as it's not forced upon them).

 

[CCFCSteve]

Found an old jacket in the bottom of the wardrobe this weekend, it had a receipt in it from October 2020. It confirms why a lot of people are so utterly pissed off. Experienced inflation for people is much worse than official statistics, and when it's your weekly shop very much more noticeable:

According to the BOE inflation calculator, consumer price inflation from 2020 to August 2025 is 28.1%

I have just done a sample of items on the receipt from October 2020 compared with the price of those items today. The rate of inflation is twice that of CPI.

Item	Oct-20​	Sep-25​	Inflation
[EDIT] British rapeseed oil	£ 1.39	£ 2.75	97.84%​
Washing up liquid	£ 0.69	£ 0.95	37.68%​
Bleach	£ 0.39	£ 0.55	41.03%​
Passata	£ 0.32	£ 0.49	53.13%​
Chestnut mushrooms	£ 0.77	£ 0.95	23.38%​
Tomato puree	£ 0.27	£ 0.59	118.52%​
Brocolli	£ 0.49	£ 0.79	61.22%​
Plain flour	£ 0.45	£ 0.70	55.56%​
Choc with salt	£ 1.49	£ 2.39	60.40%​
Cat food	£ 1.89	£ 2.59	37.04%​
	£ 8.15	£ 12.75	56.44%​

Edited post as first line was rapeseed oil not washing liquid. Cheers Dougie!

Maybe part funded the stadium purchase so we’ll let it slide

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

A few others who come to mind, but mostly just on YouTube.

None of that is really comparable to Kirk, certainly not on the same level, platform, or openness of debate. If we want to talk about trolls you could pull out many more on both sides such as Milo Yiannopoulos and it would be an entirely different conversation.

Whilst we are on this point - regarding Medhi Hasan, this is the bloke that called non-muslims 'animals', and compared gay people to pedophiles. That's without calling his bluff on the 'Make American Planes Crash Again' tweet.

Kirk got gunned down for a lot less, but even though he's been murdered, many of you are still going on about his views.

 

[Sick Boy]

None of that is really comparable to Kirk, certainly not on the same level, platform, or openness of debate. If we want to talk about trolls you could pull out many more on both sides such as Milo Yiannopoulos and it would be an entirely different conversation.

Whilst we are on this point - regarding Medhi Hasan, this is the bloke that called non-muslims 'animals', and compared gay people to pedophiles. That's without calling his bluff on the 'Make American Planes Crash Again' tweet.

Kirk got gunned down for a lot less, but even though he's been murdered, many of you are still going on about his views.

Yiannopoulos is a joke.

 

[rob9872]

Yiannopoulos is a joke.

I don't get it

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I think it's fair to say Islam is even more archaic and all religions are in need of modernisation. My belief is that when people refer to Christianity for the country, what they're actually referring to is Christian beliefs but as long as what they're preaching about is peace and respect, then ?I guess most wouldn't have an issue with any religion (as long as it's not forced upon them).

But a lot of those 'Christian' beliefs are just what decent, caring people would want anyway, whether they are any religion or none.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think it's fair to say Islam is even more archaic and all religions are in need of modernisation. My belief is that when people refer to Christianity for the country, what they're actually referring to is Christian beliefs but as long as what they're preaching about is peace and respect, then ?I guess most wouldn't have an issue with any religion (as long as it's not forced upon them).

I think taking a lot of Jesus Christ's views from the bible, he'd be considered a radical woke hard left communist by today's standards.

'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.'