Do you want to discuss boring politics? (36 Viewers)

[tisza]

They have to do everything in their power to persuade Baroness Casey to run this inquiry and then give her the tools to do the job properly.
It's blatantly clear these women & children have been let down by successive Govts, multiple authorities, the police and other organisations that are supposed to have believed them and protected them. It took nearly 10 years from when the first cases were reported in 2001 to actually get convictions in 2010.
It had to be a national inquiry because it does seem highly unlikely that these cases were limited to just the 7/8 towns/cities that have made the headlines so far. We already know that over another 500 people have been charged since last summer and are awaiting trial.
Get it done properly, get it done as quickly as is feasible and put in place structures that mean it cannot happen again.

 

---

[SBAndy]

They have to do everything in their power to persuade Baroness Casey to run this inquiry and then give her the tools to do the job properly.
It's blatantly clear these women & children have been let down by successive Govts, multiple authorities, the police and other organisations that are supposed to have believed them and protected them. It took nearly 10 years from when the first cases were reported in 2001 to actually get convictions in 2010.
It had to be a national inquiry because it does seem highly unlikely that these cases were limited to just the 7/8 towns/cities that have made the headlines so far. We already know that over another 500 people have been charged since last summer and are awaiting trial.
Get it done properly, get it done as quickly as is feasible and put in place structures that mean it cannot happen again.

Forgive my ignorance but what difference is there between a report and an inquiry?

 

[tisza]

Forgive my ignorance but what difference is there between a report and an inquiry?

Report is delivered on the results of the inquiry

 

[chiefdave]

Unless I’ve misunderstood the point, I think it’s a cop out from or on behalf of the various authorities Dave. The fact is if the perpetrator is refusing to answer I’m sure there’s ways and means to find or accurately assess ethnicity/heritage. These are criminal investigations afterall

There obviously wasn’t a willingness to do this before, hopefully there is now.

It may well be a cop out but how many reports & enquiries do we need to sort this problem out. It was a recommendation of the last inquiry, hasn't been implemented, its now been raised again but we're looking at 5 years plus of another inquiry.

Its not just in these type of cases either. Try and get stats for referrals to Prevent and you'll find something like 2/3rds have no ethniticy recorded. Look across all categories of crime and it's the same story. Even when missing people are reported there's huge percentages with no recorded ethnicity, surely would be helpful when you're looking for a simple answer.

So either there's an easy solution that has been ignored time after time, which gives little confidence this time will be any different. Or it's a lot harder to implement than we imagine. In either case I'm not sure we benefit from years of delays.

One victims group is now talking of taking legal action because the recommendations from the last inquiry haven't been implemented. That alone could put a freeze on any action while that works its way through the courts and we all know how slow the process of trying to get a judicial review is.

We need action, not more reports and inquiries telling us the same thing over and over again.

 

[Ashdown]

They have to do everything in their power to persuade Baroness Casey to run this inquiry and then give her the tools to do the job properly.
It's blatantly clear these women & children have been let down by successive Govts, multiple authorities, the police and other organisations that are supposed to have believed them and protected them. It took nearly 10 years from when the first cases were reported in 2001 to actually get convictions in 2010.
It had to be a national inquiry because it does seem highly unlikely that these cases were limited to just the 7/8 towns/cities that have made the headlines so far. We already know that over another 500 people have been charged since last summer and are awaiting trial.
Get it done properly, get it done as quickly as is feasible and put in place structures that mean it cannot happen again.

What a load of utterly filthy vile bastards, driven by a religion that degrades, controls and terrorises women in general! It shouldn’t be happening anywhere but in Britain really ?!?!

 

[shmmeee]

I just can’t get over the fact that one single law change that as far as I can see would have zero downsides and zero opposition would have stopped almost all of this. People over x age (18/21/25/whatever) cannot legally have sex with under 16/18 (AoC really should be 18 TBH). Thats it. Doesn’t matter is the child thinks her rapist is her boyfriend. We arrest the rapist and explain what grooming is to the child. Simple.

Why. Over a decade after this shit came to light has there not even been a discussion on this? Sidesteps all the race arguments and removes the ability for police or social services to turn a blind eye because “consent”. Who out there thinks a 14/15 year old with a 30 year old is ever a safe and consensual relationship?

Just absolutely baffled why this isn’t even a topic for debate in something we’ve been talking about for 15 years now.

 

[tisza]

I just can’t get over the fact that one single law change that as far as I can see would have zero downsides and zero opposition would have stopped almost all of this. People over x age (18/21/25/whatever) cannot legally have sex with under 16/18 (AoC really should be 18 TBH). Thats it. Doesn’t matter is the child thinks her rapist is her boyfriend. We arrest the rapist and explain what grooming is to the child. Simple.

Why. Over a decade after this shit came to light has there not even been a discussion on this? Sidesteps all the race arguments and removes the ability for police or social services to turn a blind eye because “consent”. Who out there thinks a 14/15 year old with a 30 year old is ever a safe and consensual relationship?

Just absolutely baffled why this isn’t even a topic for debate in something we’ve been talking about for 15 years now.

But by law the Age of consent remains 16.

 

[shmmeee]

But by law the Age of consent remains 16.

Yeah but no one wants to prosecute a 15 and a 16 year old having sex with each other. So the guidance has allowances for consent. But if you read the report Casey is saying that those allowances were used to ignore much older men with underage girls and still are.

AoC is 18 where there’s a position of trust. It’s fuzzy when both are similar ages. There’s no reason not to do as Casey recommends and make it clear that those allowances are not for huge age gaps with much older partners.

I’ll be honest the whole AoC thing makes me squeamish. I feel no one wants to talk about teenage sex so it’s avoided and we’ve ended up where legal children can have sex and get married but can’t say start an OnlyFans or fuck a Policeman or vote. Make it all 18 IMO, have a Romeo and Juliet clause that allows say a 2-3 year age gap. No exceptions.

 

[tisza]

Yeah but no one wants to prosecute a 15 and a 16 year old having sex with each other. So the guidance has allowances for consent. But if you read the report Casey is saying that those allowances were used to ignore much older men with underage girls and still are.

AoC is 18 where there’s a position of trust. It’s fuzzy when both are similar ages. There’s no reason not to do as Casey recommends and make it clear that those allowances are not for huge age gaps with much older partners.

I’ll be honest the whole AoC thing makes me squeamish. I feel no one wants to talk about teenage sex so it’s avoided and we’ve ended up where legal children can have sex and get married but can’t say start an OnlyFans or fuck a Policeman or vote. Make it all 18 IMO, have a Romeo and Juliet clause that allows say a 2-3 year age gap. No exceptions.

Opens a whole new area of discussion. Kids exposure to porn at increasingly younger ages , increasing insistence by some in positions of influence/ authority that kids are no longer kids but young adults so can make their own decisions. Groups saying if gender decisions can be made at an early age then so can consensual sex decisions at an early age, if kids are now learning so much about sex before AOC then they are in a position to make their own "informed" decisions having it and so on. AOC in several EU countries is already only 14.

 

[Captain Dart]

I'm sure you'll all love what Cummings has to say.

View attachment cummings_1750112698796.mp4

 

[shmmeee]

Opens a whole new area of discussion. Kids exposure to porn at increasingly younger ages , increasing insistence by some in positions of influence/ authority that kids are no longer kids but young adults so can make their own decisions. Groups saying if gender decisions can be made at an early age then so can consensual sex decisions at an early age, if kids are now learning so much about sex before AOC then they are in a position to make their own "informed" decisions having it and so on. AOC in several EU countries is already only 14.

OK but literally none of this has anything to do with the issue of grown ass men fucking kids.

 

[tisza]

OK but literally none of this has anything to do with the issue of grown ass men fucking kids.

But it does. There's enough confused thinking out there that let's perpetrators "take advantage" of the system. Casey has just admitted in an interview that some of these perpetrators were waiting until victims were over 13 because apparently it is more difficult to get a rape conviction. Cases not being followed through because 13/14/15 year old think they are consensual partners and can't be convinced they've been taken advantage of. If the law is 16 then how is it more difficult to pursue a rape charge with 13/14/15 year old victim? Surely a key question for any inquiry to investigate.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You want the criticism to be politically motivated so you don’t have to defend the nonsense he’s saying.

This basic fact is just incorrect. Some countries have a politicised civil service (USA, Australia, Canada and Germany) and there is an expectation that senior civil servants offer their resignation as part of the transfer of power in some countries.

Our civil service code is designed so that the civil service is professionally apolitical. The impartial advice given to ministers is supposed to be expressly unbiased and data driven. Hence, they have jobs for life because they’re supposed to be above party politics.

There are arguments to politicise the civil service, but you’d be radically changing how it works.

A few things to consider:

MPs say Whitehall civil service is working badly | YouGov

MPs are most likely to agree that Whitehall is too risk averse, slow, and inflexible

yougov.co.uk

Can Labour tame the Civil Service?

unherd.com

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/politicisation-of-the-civil-service/

 

[dutchman]

I just can’t get over the fact that one single law change that as far as I can see would have zero downsides and zero opposition would have stopped almost all of this.

I don't see why the British should have to change their laws because certain groups of immigrants chose to take advantage of them?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This basic fact is just incorrect. Some countries have a politicised civil service (USA, Australia, Canada and Germany) and there is an expectation that senior civil servants offer their resignation as part of the transfer of power in some countries.

Our civil service code is designed so that the civil service is professionally apolitical. The impartial advice given to ministers is supposed to be expressly unbiased and data driven. Hence, they have jobs for life because they’re supposed to be above party politics.

There are arguments to politicise the civil service, but you’d be radically changing how it works.

A few things to consider:

MPs say Whitehall civil service is working badly | YouGov

MPs are most likely to agree that Whitehall is too risk averse, slow, and inflexible

yougov.co.uk

Can Labour tame the Civil Service?

unherd.com

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/politicisation-of-the-civil-service/

The US did not have a politicised civil service until the wannabe dictator decided to gut it and then fill it with MAGA loyalists.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I don't see why the British should have to change their laws because certain groups of immigrants chose to take advantage of them?

There’s many indigenous groups that have taken advantage

 

[Sick Boy]

I don't see why the British should have to change their laws because certain groups of immigrants chose to take advantage of them?

Yeah because people in the west definitely don’t intentionally travel to certain countries to do the same thing.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yeah because people in the west definitely don’t intentionally travel to certain countries to do the same thing.

I think it’s clear what he means by ‘certain groups’. He just needs to be a bit braver and say the words.

 

[shmmeee]

But it does. There's enough confused thinking out there that letsperpetrators "take advantage" of the system. Casey has just admitted in an interview that some of these perpetrators were waiting until victims were over 13 because apparently it is more difficult to get a rape conviction. Cases not being followed through because 13/14/15 year old think they are consensual partners and can't be convinced they've been taken advantage of. If the law is 16 then how is it more difficult to pursue a rape charge with 13/14/15 year old victim? Surely a key question for any inquiry to investigate.

We’ve just been though this. Read my last reply.

 

[shmmeee]

I don't see why the British should have to change their laws because certain groups of immigrants chose to take advantage of them?

It’s not just immigrants. Anyone who has worked with kids or been one will know of weird older white lads who have far too young GFs as well.

Thirty year olds should not be fucking 14 year olds. I’m sorry if you think the right to is some great ancient right of the British man.

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah because people in the west definitely don’t intentionally travel to certain countries to do the same thing.

He doesn’t give a fuck about these kids. For some in this thread this topic is just a chance to bitch about foreigners. If it was white British lads raping girls (and it is as well) they couldn’t give a fuck. I’m sure ESB will be all over them any second.

 

[CCFCSteve]

It may well be a cop out but how many reports & enquiries do we need to sort this problem out. It was a recommendation of the last inquiry, hasn't been implemented, its now been raised again but we're looking at 5 years plus of another inquiry.

Its not just in these type of cases either. Try and get stats for referrals to Prevent and you'll find something like 2/3rds have no ethniticy recorded. Look across all categories of crime and it's the same story. Even when missing people are reported there's huge percentages with no recorded ethnicity, surely would be helpful when you're looking for a simple answer.

So either there's an easy solution that has been ignored time after time, which gives little confidence this time will be any different. Or it's a lot harder to implement than we imagine. In either case I'm not sure we benefit from years of delays.

One victims group is now talking of taking legal action because the recommendations from the last inquiry haven't been implemented. That alone could put a freeze on any action while that works its way through the courts and we all know how slow the process of trying to get a judicial review is.

We need action, not more reports and inquiries telling us the same thing over and over again.

I agree about endless inquiries and no action. Whats the point

I think you’ve highlighted worrying issues across the board though. I might be wrong* but in terms of ethnicity I wonder if it is that easy but as has been shown by this grooming gang shitshow people were worried about either asking/assessing, finding out or recording it for worries of cries of racism. We’ve therefore ended up with limited/no data even in situations that might help people of various minorities/ethnicities as you’ve highlighted. If that’s the case it’s inexcusable but it wouldn’t surprise me

I just hope that certain changes and improvements are implemented rather than waiting for the results of another inquiry

*if there is info to prove me wrong I’d be happy to read/review. I just know public bodies (and a lot of private to be fair) have been frightened of their own shadows on certain matters like ethnicity, gender etc. I’m all for being considerate, inclusive etc but if it’s hampering delivery and effectiveness of services, especially policing, then they need to reconsider priorities

 

[CCFCSteve]

Yeah because people in the west definitely don’t intentionally travel to certain countries to do the same thing.

Back streets of Bangkok is sickening for that. Loads of old western (white) men preying on young boys and girls

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The US did not have a politicised civil service until the wannabe dictator decided to gut it and then fill it with MAGA loyalists.

This isn’t actually true.

The USA is an outlier that the president appoints thousands of political appointees (4k as of 2016) to the civil service and around a quarter of said appointments need to approved by the other branches of government. It’s a feature of US democracy that governments can start of slow because of ‘messy’ transitions between governments.

Trump has been a more aggressive in hiring and firing people to prioritise candidates loyal to him. That’s within his constitutional power as the President.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This isn’t actually true.

The USA is an outlier that the president appoints thousands of political appointees (4k as of 2016) to the civil service and around a quarter of said appointments need to approved by the other branches of government. It’s a feature of US democracy that governments can start of slow because of ‘messy’ transitions between governments.

Trump has been a more aggressive in hiring and firing people to prioritise candidates loyal to him. That’s within his constitutional power as the President.

He has gone some distance beyond that with Elon.

 

[shmmeee]

I agree about endless inquiries and no action. Whats the point

I think you’ve highlighted worrying issues across the board though. I might be wrong* but in terms of ethnicity I wonder if it is that easy but as has been shown by this grooming gang shitshow people were worried about either asking/assessing, finding out or recording it for worries of cries of racism. We’ve therefore ended up with limited/no data even in situations that might help people of various minorities/ethnicities as you’ve highlighted. If that’s the case it’s inexcusable but it wouldn’t surprise me

I just hope that certain changes and improvements are implemented rather than waiting for the results of another inquiry

*if there is info to prove me wrong I’d be happy to read/review. I just know public bodies (and a lot of private to be fair) have been frightened of their own shadows on certain matters like ethnicity, gender etc. I’m all for being considerate, inclusive etc but if it’s hampering delivery and effectiveness of services, especially policing, then they need to reconsider priorities

Racism concerns certainly played a part but by far the biggest part was a societal attitude that a 13 year old girl can have a 30 year old boyfriend consensually. Race wouldn’t come into it if the law was clear. But to be clear the accepted view in schools, police, and social care at the time was that if a 13/14 year old said they were consensually dating an adult man that was OK and to leave it. That’s why when suddenly you hear about issues with Asian men there’s not an immediate “oh these guys are pedos” response and a belief that the complainants wouldn’t complain if their daughter was “dating” a white guy, because lets me honest in many cases at that time they wouldn’t.

Change the law to make it clear adults cannot ever consensually have sex with underage children. It’s really that simple. It will lead to a lot of white guys getting arrested though, because while they don’t tend to do this level of abuse in gangs that the Pakistani immigrants seem to be doing, an awful lot of late twenties and early thirties white British guys fuck underage kids under the guise of being their boyfriend. I saw it when I was a teenager and I saw it when I was a teacher and I experienced the complete indifference when reporting it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

He doesn’t give a fuck about these kids. For some in this thread this topic is just a chance to bitch about foreigners. If it was white British lads raping girls (and it is as well) they couldn’t give a fuck. I’m sure ESB will be all over them any second.

Completely out of touch or you’re in denial. Can you claim to care about the victims when you’re still calling people who highlight this issue as racist?! This is exactly how we got to this point.

The scandal is more than just the crimes being committed. It’s the complicity of the local authorities who refused to go after these gangs in fears of being labelled racist and/or ‘raising community tensions’. You then have the establishment dismissing these claims and using flawed to justify there was no specific issues here.

This ‘what about-ism’ towards ‘White British lads’ raping girls is ridiculous. First and foremost, we trust the authorities and establishment media to go after these gangs. Secondly, you’re ignoring the racialised motivations of these gangs.

Some of the things the police said to the victims and the parents trying to protect their children is a disgrace.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I agree about endless inquiries and no action. Whats the point

I think you’ve highlighted worrying issues across the board though. I might be wrong* but in terms of ethnicity I wonder if it is that easy but as has been shown by this grooming gang shitshow people were worried about either asking/assessing, finding out or recording it for worries of cries of racism. We’ve therefore ended up with limited/no data even in situations that might help people of various minorities/ethnicities as you’ve highlighted. If that’s the case it’s inexcusable but it wouldn’t surprise me

I just hope that certain changes and improvements are implemented rather than waiting for the results of another inquiry

*if there is info to prove me wrong I’d be happy to read/review. I just know public bodies (and a lot of private to be fair) have been frightened of their own shadows on certain matters like ethnicity, gender etc. I’m all for being considerate, inclusive etc but if it’s hampering delivery and effectiveness of services, especially policing, then they need to reconsider priorities

I’m sure you’re correct with all that
And for me that doesn’t need an inquiry and it’s so disappointing that police social services government local councils to add to Catholic Churches convents all churches schools etc etc have let down lots of vulnerable kids

so good that reform and other populists have made everyone feel better by pointing at it beng everyone’s fault bar theirs and that nothing we or they have done is wrong and there’s nothing they can do but demand every Pakistani Muslim is removed from the country

 

[chiefdave]

I think you’ve highlighted worrying issues across the board though. I might be wrong* but in terms of ethnicity I wonder if it is that easy but as has been shown by this grooming gang shitshow people were worried about either asking/assessing, finding out or recording it for worries of cries of racism. We’ve therefore ended up with limited/no data even in situations that might help people of various minorities/ethnicities as you’ve highlighted. If that’s the case it’s inexcusable but it wouldn’t surprise me

Some of it is just good old fashioned incompetence. When its been looked at as part of previous inquiries they've found issues like the forms the police use not having a box for ethnicity. Something you would think would be an easy fix.

But there is an issue that if a person refuses to confirm their ethnicity you, at present, can't force them. Although there must be a way around that as the right to silence would also be in effect at the point you are asked to confirm things like your name, age, address etc.

I think the biggest issue is that the authorities don't, as a matter of routine, record ethnicity in any circumstances. That includes when it would be beneficial to know the ethnicity of a victim of crime so I'm not convinced this is solely down to people not wanting to appear racist.

Thoroughly bizarre that if I buy a ticket for say, Warwick Arts Centre or the cricket I will get asked my ethnicity but organisations like the police don't seem to view it as data worth holding.

 

[SBT]

This ‘what about-ism’ towards ‘White British lads’ raping girls is ridiculous. First and foremost, we trust the authorities and establishment media to go after these gangs.

Do we?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I’ve worked around teaching local council churches etc etc all my adult life it’s outrageous given the effort and passion to protect vulnerable adults and children that authorities have decided kids in care deserve less protection than other kids

Breaks my heart the damage we’ve allowed to be done because they aren’t our children

However remember most child abuse is by someone the child knows and mostly within the family

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Racism concerns certainly played a part but by far the biggest part was a societal attitude that a 13 year old girl can have a 30 year old boyfriend consensually. Race wouldn’t come into it if the law was clear. But to be clear the accepted view in schools, police, and social care at the time was that if a 13/14 year old said they were consensually dating an adult man that was OK and to leave it. That’s why when suddenly you hear about issues with Asian men there’s not an immediate “oh these guys are pedos” response and a belief that the complainants wouldn’t complain if their daughter was “dating” a white guy, because lets me honest in many cases at that time they wouldn’t.

Change the law to make it clear adults cannot ever consensually have sex with underage children. It’s really that simple. It will lead to a lot of white guys getting arrested though, because while they don’t tend to do this level of abuse in gangs that the Pakistani immigrants seem to be doing, an awful lot of late twenties and early thirties white British guys fuck underage kids under the guise of being their boyfriend. I saw it when I was a teenager and I saw it when I was a teacher and I experienced the complete indifference when reporting it.

A friend of mine started dating his current partner when she was 16 and he was 25. That alone despite being technically legal didn’t sit right.

 

[shmmeee]

A friend of mine started dating his current partner when she was 16 and he was 25. That alone despite being technically legal didn’t sit right.

It really should be 18 with exemptions for both partners being similar ages. Everyone know someone who has dated 16/17 year olds in their mid to late twenties I think and behind their back it’s always “that’s fucken creepy”, yet we let it carry on.

 

[chiefdave]

I’ve worked around teaching local council churches etc etc all my adult life it’s outrageous given the effort and passion to protect vulnerable adults and children that authorities have decided kids in care deserve less protection than other kids

Breaks my heart the damage we’ve allowed to be done because they aren’t our children

However remember most child abuse is by someone the child knows and mostly within the family

Many years ago I worked on a project for Relate and part of that involved setting up remote systems for kids to be able to get counselling in an environment they were more comfortable in.

Was an eye opener for sure. Kids in care clearly very much forgotten about and left to rot in the system. Staff desperately trying their best while those in charge take little interest and provide the minimum amount of funding they can get away with.

Also a big shock when I heard some stats on how many kids are abused and how many are approached by random people on social media. This was back in the MySpace / Facebook days and before every kid was clutching a smartphone 24/7 so can only imagine that has got far far worse.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Many years ago I worked on a project for Relate and part of that involved setting up remote systems for kids to be able to get counselling in an environment they were more comfortable in.

Was an eye opener for sure. Kids in care clearly very much forgotten about and left to rot in the system. Staff desperately trying their best while those in charge take little interest and provide the minimum amount of funding they can get away with.

Also a big shock when I heard some stats on how many kids are abused and how many are approached by random people on social media. This was back in the MySpace / Facebook days and before every kid was clutching a smartphone 24/7 so can only imagine that has got far far worse.

To Catch A Predator never ceased to amaze me.