Do you want to discuss boring politics? (9 Viewers)

PVA

Well-Known Member
You've made no comment at all over what you want from Labour apart from them being the good guys for you on this occasion

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I've made plenty.

Lynch is saying exactly what I've been saying for God knows how long there. Almost to the letter.

And you're trying to claim that he's actually saying the same thing as you.
 
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NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
GF1kGdYW0AAvV7s
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
100% agree that capital gains above a certain amount should be taxed at a higher rate. I think that’s coming as well. But equally you start putting it at silly rates and people will move, especially if their CGT is generated from shares, investments etc

My point was that even with additional tweaks etc to generate more from the rich, the lions share for improved public services will still be paid by higher (but not super rich) and middle income earners. so let’s not kid ourselves and have a proper debate about what we want and are all collectively willing to pay


ps if you’re blended tax rate is 40% you’re doing well for yourself ! ; )

Not as well as Rishi!!

To be clear I’ve said I could and should pay more to sort the country out, but the feeling that once you got beyond normal PAYE type salaries the same rules don’t apply seems valid.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
I agree, I hope Labour will do exactly that.

All I'm saying is that literally everything is utterly broken and I think it will take a long time to fix.

Things might improve by 1% and the anti-Starmer crowd will say that's not enough, the Starmer backers will say it's a good start and we'll be back here arguing about it!

I'm honestly baffled how anyone can see a small percentage improvement as a win for Starmer.

Going back to your smashed laptop analogy.
If I smashed your laptop it would take a long time to repair.
But if you made me pay for a replacement because I was the one that broke it then you'd have a working laptop much sooner.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
100% agree that capital gains above a certain amount should be taxed at a higher rate. I think that’s coming as well. But equally you start putting it at silly rates and people will move, especially if their CGT is generated from shares, investments etc

My point was that even with additional tweaks etc to generate more from the rich, the lions share for improved public services will still be paid by higher (but not super rich) and middle income earners. so let’s not kid ourselves and have a proper debate about what we want and are all collectively willing to pay


ps if you’re blended tax rate is 40% you’re doing well for yourself ! ; )
Taxes do not pay for spending for the millionth time

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fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Ok, to balance out government spending, to take money out the system, help control inflation….however you want to class it, tax is still deciding what individual people or companies contribute towards whatever monetary process you believe in
That's better.

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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I'm honestly baffled how anyone can see a small percentage improvement as a win for Starmer.

Going back to your smashed laptop analogy.
If I smashed your laptop it would take a long time to repair.
But if you made me pay for a replacement because I was the one that broke it then you'd have a working laptop much sooner.

Who said anything about a “win for Starmer” if child poverty decreases 1% that’s a win for children.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
After the last 14 years being happy with that is fucking pitiful to be honest.

I mean I won’t be sad if fewer children grow up in poverty, no.

As I said before I think the disconnect is seeing voting in a GE as either a statement of your values, or a binary choice in direction. There is no magical third option where everything is gumdrops and rainbows. And when there was it was a) questionably viable and b) fronted by, quite frankly, a weird crank, which even if a wasn’t true made it seem like it was.

This is a bit like that poll the Tory back benchers put out that was widely ridiculed that asked something like “Who would you rather vote for? Sunak, Starmer, a hypothetical new Conservative Prime Minister that focused on your priorities”

Surprisingly the imaginary candidate won by a landslide.

There’s a couple of related phrases from tech startup culture that are appropriate here: “vapourware” - a product that only ever appears in PR campaigns and never releases because it’s impossible. “Get in the arena” - never mind saying what you are going to build, put it into the marketplace and prove it.

The left never ships. Always promising something better is possible but never delivering it.

Left wing politicians need to get out there and win elections and put in place working policy. That trumps all the Oxford debates and protests and working groups put together.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
I mean I won’t be sad if fewer children grow up in poverty, no.

As I said before I think the disconnect is seeing voting in a GE as either a statement of your values, or a binary choice in direction. There is no magical third option where everything is gumdrops and rainbows. And when there was it was a) questionably viable and b) fronted by, quite frankly, a weird crank, which even if a wasn’t true made it seem like it was.

This is a bit like that poll the Tory back benchers put out that was widely ridiculed that asked something like “Who would you rather vote for? Sunak, Starmer, a hypothetical new Conservative Prime Minister that focused on your priorities”

Surprisingly the imaginary candidate won by a landslide.

There’s a couple of related phrases from tech startup culture that are appropriate here: “vapourware” - a product that only ever appears in PR campaigns and never releases because it’s impossible. “Get in the arena” - never mind saying what you are going to build, put it into the marketplace and prove it.

The left never ships. Always promising something better is possible but never delivering it.

Left wing politicians need to get out there and win elections and put in place working policy. That trumps all the Oxford debates and protests and working groups put together.

This is nothing to do with left or right, it's to do with the fact that after the last 14 years people see minor improvements as some sort of victory, I find it staggering to be honest.
And when I say people, I mean people like you who are clearly empathetic, they'll always be those who don't give a fuck about others, but people whose heart is in the right place but think that slight improvement is progress, its baffling.

You probably won't agree and I'm not going to say anymore but I hope as a country we wake the fuck up.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
This is nothing to do with left or right, it's to do with the fact that after the last 14 years people see minor improvements as some sort of victory, I find it staggering to be honest.
And when I say people, I mean people like you who are clearly empathetic, they'll always be those who don't give a fuck about others, but people whose heart is in the right place but think that slight improvement is progress, its baffling.

You probably won't agree and I'm not going to say anymore but I hope as a country we wake the fuck up.

Yes. When things have been consistently getting worse for 14 years, then getting even a bit better is good. I really really don’t get this. You’d rather they got worse so that they might get even better in the future maybe?

This is a sequencing issue for me. You want to change politics voting in a GE ain’t it. The left lost that battle in 2020, the energy for a left wing alternative that should be put into making sure next time round we have a class A candidate, policy platform, and campaigning infrastructure is instead spent on making up “Kid Starver” and chuckling with Tories over “Beer Korma”.

At a GE, in the UK, you have two choices. To choose Tory of the two, whether passively or actively seems let’s say counterproductive. Unless you’re an accellerationist, which seems a shaky platform considering recent history.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't rather things got worse, I'd rather we set about undoing the harm of the last 14 years with the same vigour the tories went about siphoning the public purse to line the pockets of them and their mates.
I'd rather the public bought in to the above and got behind it.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't rather things got worse, I'd rather we set about undoing the harm of the last 14 years with the same vigour the tories went about siphoning the public purse to line the pockets of them and their mates.
I'd rather the public bought in to the above and got behind it.

OK break it down for me. Walk through your ideal scenario. You don’t vote Labour because Starmer isn’t doing as much as you’d like. Let’s say you’re so convincing everyone who feels Starmer isn’t doing as much as they’d like joined you and also didn’t vote Labour.

What do you think happens next?

Or are you relying on people like me voting Labour so you can feel good about yourself without risking a Tory govt?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
This is nothing to do with left or right, it's to do with the fact that after the last 14 years people see minor improvements as some sort of victory, I find it staggering to be honest.
And when I say people, I mean people like you who are clearly empathetic, they'll always be those who don't give a fuck about others, but people whose heart is in the right place but think that slight improvement is progress, its baffling.

You probably won't agree and I'm not going to say anymore but I hope as a country we wake the fuck up.
Things have gotten that bad it’s hard to not to see even a stagnation of trends as an improvement. This is going to be Labours biggest problem. There’s been 14 years of investment in getting NHS waiting times up, child poverty up, schools in such a bad state of repair, mental health services this decimated etc etc etc. Labours first task is stopping those trends before they can start improving them. That’s not to say that they can’t or shouldn’t be capable of getting some new manager bounce. A fairer tax system will have an immediate effect on making the majority feel a little better. It’s hard to believe that industry isn’t looking at the state of the Tories and thinking you can’t invest in the UK with them in charge, hopefully we can sort some industrial disputes out and get the NHS working to 100% of its available capacity at any time 100% of the time.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
OK break it down for me. Walk through your ideal scenario. You don’t vote Labour because Starmer isn’t doing as much as you’d like. Let’s say you’re so convincing everyone who feels Starmer isn’t doing as much as they’d like joined you and also didn’t vote Labour.

What do you think happens next?

Or are you relying on people like me voting Labour so you can feel good about yourself without risking a Tory govt?

I'm simply not voting for a man or a shadow cabinet I have zero faith in, how you or others vote is your business.
I genuinely hope in 3 or 4 years you're on here giving it a fucking massive I told you so.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
It's as if this brand of politics wasn't that finished by 2010 that it got a lower % share of the popular vote than even 2019.

2010 had the second lowest share of the popular vote in history behind 1983.
3bc140de2ff85ef35c89e518bbc6c12f.jpg


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shmmeee

Well-Known Member
It's as if this brand of politics wasn't that finished by 2010 that it got a lower % share of the popular vote than even 2019.

2010 had the second lowest share of the popular vote in history behind 1983.
3bc140de2ff85ef35c89e518bbc6c12f.jpg


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Next Labour PM talks to only living Labour PM (who has won an election) really isn’t the scoop it’s being presented at here.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
...so after saying a 1% improvement in child poverty is not enough you're choosing it to go up rather than improve by that 1%?!!


Excuse Me Wow GIF by Mashable

What a ridiculous statement.
Given the current rates of poverty in this country anyone Patti g themselves on the back over a 1% decrease needs to give their head a wobble, and I doubt Starmer would consider that something to brag about.


We're one of the richest economies in the world FFS
 
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Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
I voted Street for WM Mayor. Cos the Labour guy was shite and Street is fairly apolitical for a politician. That’s the only time I think.
He isn't.

He sends out a paper which is little more that propaganda for the Tories and himself.

Also a bloke I know met him at a function. Basically the first thing Street talked about was how great it was the Tories had provided investment. When this bloke said he was largely a Labour voter Street just walked off and ignored him.

Btw did anyone get involved in the 'consultation' on the mayor getting the PCC responsibilities? Not a fan personally.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
He isn't.

He sends out a paper which is little more that propaganda for the Tories and himself.

Also a bloke I know met him at a function. Basically the first thing Street talked about was how great it was the Tories had provided investment. When this bloke said he was largely a Labour voter Street just walked off and ignored him.

Btw did anyone get involved in the 'consultation' on the mayor getting the PCC responsibilities? Not a fan personally.

He’s a moderate conservative and champions investment for businesses very well. He’s working now with Burnham on rail infrastructure to link Birmingham and the NW after the HS2 debacle.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Thing is it’s all a bit Rorschach until Labour are in government. Maybe he’s a Tory, maybe he’s trying to win an election like Biden but like Biden will be more progressive than his PR, maybe he’s watering it down and will take the mask off and go full Blair. Until the election we just don’t know.

But to portray Labours campaign as right wing is just not true. It’s been massively over cautious and an exercise in refusal to commit to any spending or policy lest it fuck things up. I’m not sure it tells us anything.

We are gonna have to wait and see who is right.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
The electorate don't see Starmer's Labour as anywhere remotely close to the Tories



It is a bit worrying though if at this moment in time the public think the policies being suggested are left-wing. Especially as many of them just seem to be not changing anything, just being less incompetent
 

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