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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (33 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Macca1987

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 8, 2024
  • #32,796
We voted for Brexit because we didn't want a bunch of unelected people from the British public telling us what to do, still now we have an unelected group sitting in the HoL helping tell us what to do. It's the 21st century now, it shouldn't be beyond the will of man to sort something out to make that place more meaningful to the country
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 8, 2024
  • #32,797
Macca1987 said:
We voted for Brexit because we didn't want a bunch of unelected people from the British public telling us what to do, still now we have an unelected group sitting in the HoL helping tell us what to do. It's the 21st century now, it shouldn't be beyond the will of man to sort something out to make that place more meaningful to the country
Click to expand...

Without wanting to re-open the Brexit debate, the 'unelected' thing was always a bit of a myth.

Is the European Union governed by ‘unelected bureaucrats’?

Written by Eponine Howarth (LLB) The opinion that the European Union is governed by ‘unelected bureaucrats’ is commonly held by europhobes and an argument wielded by the Leave campaign in the refer…
blogs.lse.ac.uk

Regardless, agreed, the House of Lords is an ongoing shambles.

Starmer said he'd reform it if elected, but then he's said a lot of stuff.

I think his usual path for these things is Promise -> Pledge -> Ambition -> Dream. I wouldn't hold your breath, basically.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 8, 2024
  • #32,798
Macca1987 said:
We voted for Brexit because we didn't want a bunch of unelected people from the British public telling us what to do, still now we have an unelected group sitting in the HoL helping tell us what to do. It's the 21st century now, it shouldn't be beyond the will of man to sort something out to make that place more meaningful to the country
Click to expand...
Shows how bad the state of politics in this country is when it's been the Lords that have stopped some batshit legislation being passed.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 8, 2024
  • #32,799
shmmeee said:
Not everything has to be democratic. That’s the sort of thing that leads to Mail headlines about unelected bureaucrats.

The point of the Lords is to provide balance to the populism of the Commons with expertise from around society. In theory it’s a good concept. The selection criteria just need to be better so it doesn’t get stuffed with political glad handlers.
Click to expand...
I agree about it needing to be a balance to the Commons, but if that is true it has to be removed from it. At the moment its the Commons who get to pick the appointees, so first question is who should do that instead? How do you remove the influence of politics from selection?

I like the idea of posts being offered to those in academia and are experts on the particular area they're in control of. But again, who picks them? Should an industry body make the nominations and can even that be free of political infleunce?

One thing I would be wary of is things like business. Highly successful business people tend to be so because their consideration is almost solely themselves and often people get exploited so they can get higher returns. You know full well it'd be saying low tax, deregulation and reduce pay/employment rights and these are not things that are good for the country overall.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 8, 2024
  • #32,800
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I agree about it needing to be a balance to the Commons, but if that is true it has to be removed from it. At the moment its the Commons who get to pick the appointees, so first question is who should do that instead? How do you remove the influence of politics from selection?

I like the idea of posts being offered to those in academia and are experts on the particular area they're in control of. But again, who picks them? Should an industry body make the nominations and can even that be free of political infleunce?

One thing I would be wary of is things like business. Highly successful business people tend to be so because their consideration is almost solely themselves and often people get exploited so they can get higher returns. You know full well it'd be saying low tax, deregulation and reduce pay/employment rights and these are not things that are good for the country overall.
Click to expand...

Id have a series of Lords that represent different areas of interest decided by some committee, but that’s just shifting the problem left. Some kind of nomination process from the public or trade bodies but then who owns those? I think at best you can make one big vulnerability several smaller ones and make it hard to tip the balance.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 9, 2024
  • #32,801
Starmer is a complete clown if he thought cosying up to the right wing rags was going to stop this,sort of nonsense.

 
Reactions: Ian1779 and Sky Blue Pete
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 9, 2024
  • #32,802
Would have thought The Sun would be manoeuvring to accept the inevitable by now, guess they think they have a few more months grace before the election.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 9, 2024
  • #32,803
SBT said:
Would have thought The Sun would be manoeuvring to accept the inevitable by now, guess they think they have a few more months grace before the election.
Click to expand...

Given recent events maybe they're getting worried that Leverson 2 might be on the table, keeping the tories in is the only guaranteed way to make sure its not.
 
Reactions: capel & collindridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 9, 2024
  • #32,804
David O'Day said:
Sunak saying that they need to look at Fujitsu is a mistake for them given that one of his SoS's husbands was on the board, then CEO and then Chairman of their UK arm during all of this.
Click to expand...
Would be surprised if they don't have relationships with Infosys as well

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 9, 2024
  • #32,805
shmmeee said:
Id have a series of Lords that represent different areas of interest decided by some committee, but that’s just shifting the problem left. Some kind of nomination process from the public or trade bodies but then who owns those? I think at best you can make one big vulnerability several smaller ones and make it hard to tip the balance.
Click to expand...

Ireland has a system that looks a bit better than ours, but still is criticised and it's also up for reform (says Wiki).

Seanad Éireann - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Off the top of my head, I'd make it an elected position, at least in the majority, and those elections based on PR so that minority voices (right, left, and other) get a better voice.

A large salary, a limited term, and the highest standards of public office mandated and enforced by constitutional and criminal law rather than by convention.

The only way to get better politicians, imho, is to break the endless cycle of cronyism and corruption.

No second jobs if you're an MP or "Senator" (if that's where we're heading). No non-executive board positions. No acceptance of jollies or hospitality. Full disclosure of potential conflicts of interest where family is involved.

In essence, the same rules that the low level seat-warmers like me are obliged to follow if we're dealing with potential suppliers or family members as part of our role.

Enforcement and investigation of the above rules conducted by an independent judiciary, rather that the politicians, or a subset thereof, themselves.

Doubt it'll ever happen though...
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,806

HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says

Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.
www.bbc.co.uk

How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,807
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says

Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.
www.bbc.co.uk

How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
Click to expand...

Because we still need more trains, even if we are so fucking useless as delivering anything it costs ten times what it should.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,808
Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:

HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says

Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.
www.bbc.co.uk

How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
Click to expand...
The fact it's been half cancelled after 15 years is another national embarrassment, to cancel it completely would just expose what a joke country the UK has become.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Earlsdon_Skyblue1
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,809
fernandopartridge said:
The fact it's been half cancelled after 15 years is another national embarrassment, to cancel it completely would just expose what a joke country the UK has become.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I'd say half cancelling shows that more. They cancel the bit that's actually needed(!) and then keep the rest because of vanity / embarrasment that they can't let it be a seen as a total failure.

Should have been all or nothing.
 
Reactions: Earlsdon_Skyblue1

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,810
fernandopartridge said:
The fact it's been half cancelled after 15 years is another national embarrassment, to cancel it completely would just expose what a joke country the UK has become.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I was reading yesterday that the government is struggling to find anyone interested in buying all the land back from the cancelled phase 2 meaning that phase 2 is still a possibility with one of the biggest expenses already settled.

I think that there needs to be an enquiry into it first on how not only the price escalated so much and so quickly but why we can’t do it as cheap as other countries facing the same issues. Take Japan for instance, they’ve built a new bullet line in the same period as we’ve been building HS2 and not only did it arrive on time and on budget it was also tunnelled for the most part (about 80% IIRC) at about half the cost per mile as HS2. Something don’t add up.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,811
Phase 2 will happen at some point. It’s whether we do it now or spend loads more.

This country is such a joke and totally unable to complete long term projects because every time a Tory PM needs a boost we cut a ton of investment which means we can’t take advantage of consistency and stability of plans to lower costs.

The UK govt is fucking terrible customer and a risky investment. How the Tories have the reputation for fiscal responsibility which shit like this is beyond me. Just constant short term thinking.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,812
shmmeee said:
Phase 2 will happen at some point. It’s whether we do it now or spend loads more.

This country is such a joke and totally unable to complete long term projects because every time a Tory PM needs a boost we cut a ton of investment which means we can’t take advantage of consistency and stability of plans to lower costs.

The UK govt is fucking terrible customer and a risky investment. How the Tories have the reputation for fiscal responsibility which shit like this is beyond me. Just constant short term thinking.
Click to expand...
After what Liz Truss did they should be out of office for a generation. Bet they’ll be back in after a term once Starmer has failed to solve the problems Rishi has left him with.
 
Reactions: PVA and shmmeee
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,813
shmmeee said:
Phase 2 will happen at some point. It’s whether we do it now or spend loads more.

This country is such a joke and totally unable to complete long term projects because every time a Tory PM needs a boost we cut a ton of investment which means we can’t take advantage of consistency and stability of plans to lower costs.

The UK govt is fucking terrible customer and a risky investment. How the Tories have the reputation for fiscal responsibility which shit like this is beyond me. Just constant short term thinking.
Click to expand...

Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)

Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist

Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
yourshortlist.com

It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence

I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,814
CCFCSteve said:
Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)

Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist

Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
yourshortlist.com

It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence

I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
Click to expand...

It’s treasury brain. I forget the exact details so excuse me for errors but read quite a few things on it recently and its to do with how we categorise it and how we don’t put cash aside for the project and its open to being reallocated according to political needs of the day where other countries do something differently that makes it harder.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve, fernandopartridge and Sky_Blue_Dreamer
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,815
Bombs for Ukraine for example
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 10, 2024
  • #32,816
skybluetony176 said:
I think that there needs to be an enquiry into it first on how not only the price escalated so much and so quickly but why we can’t do it as cheap as other countries facing the same issues.
Click to expand...
One of the senior people involved in HS1, who said he offered to advise and couldn't even got a response, said that one of the very simple and obvious issues was that none of the tenders went out with a figure for budget so contractors were just inflating figures and hoping for the best knowing so much work needed doing they'd have to accept something from pretty much every company bidding.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 11, 2024
  • #32,817
duffer said:
Ireland has a system that looks a bit better than ours, but still is criticised and it's also up for reform (says Wiki).

Seanad Éireann - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Off the top of my head, I'd make it an elected position, at least in the majority, and those elections based on PR so that minority voices (right, left, and other) get a better voice.

A large salary, a limited term, and the highest standards of public office mandated and enforced by constitutional and criminal law rather than by convention.

The only way to get better politicians, imho, is to break the endless cycle of cronyism and corruption.

No second jobs if you're an MP or "Senator" (if that's where we're heading). No non-executive board positions. No acceptance of jollies or hospitality. Full disclosure of potential conflicts of interest where family is involved.

In essence, the same rules that the low level seat-warmers like me are obliged to follow if we're dealing with potential suppliers or family members as part of our role.

Enforcement and investigation of the above rules conducted by an independent judiciary, rather that the politicians, or a subset thereof, themselves.

Doubt it'll ever happen though...
Click to expand...
But if we want to keep specific MP's for a constituency, and having an actual elected local representative is a good thing IMO. PR is absolute shit for that.

Like you, I want PR to be included in some way as a better representation of the overall mood of the country, even if it would allow some of the lunatic fringes a bit more of a say, but I don't think it can be at the expense of a local representative in govt.

Hence why I've in the past suggested keep FPTP for the Commons as it is, but elect the upper house based on PR, using the overall percentage of votes each party has received. One election, two houses elected using differing criteria
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 11, 2024
  • #32,818
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But if we want to keep specific MP's for a constituency, and having an actual elected local representative is a good thing IMO. PR is absolute shit for that.
Click to expand...
Are there any stats for how many people have actually ever used their local MP to represent them at anything. No idea but gut feeling is its a very small percentage
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jan 11, 2024
  • #32,819
chiefdave said:
Are there any stats for how many people have actually ever used their local MP to represent them at anything. No idea but gut feeling is its a very small percentage
Click to expand...
I have
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 11, 2024
  • #32,820
shmmeee said:
It’s treasury brain. I forget the exact details so excuse me for errors but read quite a few things on it recently and its to do with how we categorise it and how we don’t put cash aside for the project and its open to being reallocated according to political needs of the day where other countries do something differently that makes it harder.
Click to expand...

For whatever reason budgets are attached to financial years and financial years are attached to parliamentary terms, the short-termism is by design really.
 
Reactions: shmmeee

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 11, 2024
  • #32,821
CCFCSteve said:
Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)

Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist

Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
yourshortlist.com

It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence

I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
Click to expand...

Large organisations often have massive project failures, it is not specific to the public sector. Most companies don't deal with projects of anywhere near the complexity either.
 

JAM See

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 14, 2024
  • #32,822
Does anyone need any kindling?
 

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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 14, 2024
  • #32,823
Starmer was in fine form today on the politics show - he followed David Cameron - it was difficult to actually see the difference - two highly slippery characters
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,824
Speech by Grant Schapps yesterday, the descent continues, desperate stuff born of failure,he hopes, the full gambit on show to direct the youth to follow what exactly?
 

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,825
How come them down south can do this?

Woking council declares bankruptcy with £1.2bn deficit

Previous Tory leadership embarked on risky investment spree involving hotels and skyscrapers
www.theguardian.com
 

slowpoke

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,826
The Post Office saga will finish the Tories there are ex-ministers and current ones up to the grubby necks in it including our PM.
And Mr Banks and other victims ain’t letting go.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,827
slowpoke said:
The Post Office saga will finish the Tories there are ex-ministers and current ones up to the grubby necks in it including our PM.
And Mr Banks and other victims ain’t letting go.
Click to expand...
It should you are right…. But then so should have Grenfell.
 
Reactions: AOM, Sick Boy and Sky Blue Pete
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,828
Lee Anderson has resigned. Tough times

All this goes to show (again) is that Sunak was never going to placate the right of the party. Said a few times before he’d have been better off being his own man, clearing the shit out and then being in a better place to distance himself from stuff that’s happened over recent years. No chance now though
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,829
CCFCSteve said:
Lee Anderson has resigned. Tough times

All this goes to show (again) is that Sunak was never going to placate the right of the party. Said a few times before he’d have been better off being his own man, clearing the shit out and then being in a better place to distance himself from stuff that’s happened over recent years. No chance now though
Click to expand...
He was just best buddies with him in a video yesterday!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 16, 2024
  • #32,830
slowpoke said:
The Post Office saga will finish the Tories there are ex-ministers and current ones up to the grubby necks in it including our PM.
And Mr Banks and other victims ain’t letting go.
Click to expand...

Most of the prosecutions and cover ups were under the Blair years
 
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