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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (13 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,046
PVA said:
Exactly. As much as I'm sure he'd love to call out Johnson and the government for their total ineptitude it would not go down very well at the moment with them being absolutely teflon in the middle of the vaccine bounce.

It make him look weak and ineffective, but he has to bide his time, wait for the Covid handling inquiries to start, wait for the impacts of Brexit to hit etc, and then go on the offensive.
Click to expand...

Which public sector workers will he laugh at when he goes on the offensive? Striking nurses maybe?
 

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,047
shmmeee said:
You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:



They also didn’t do this:



They did this:

Click to expand...

Anecdotal but my dad has had mental health issues for around 15 years. (after being attacked with a hammer, which I found out about on the front page of the cov telegraph but that's another story).
He was pumped full of pills for years and turned to alcohol and has nearly died because of it a couple of times.
He was completely left to his own devices and turned down for any care due to his drinking. Luckily his ex works in social care and pulled a few strings to get him into rehab in Kent which is a charity run place. (He's still there now and hasn't had a drink since last October)

He'd 100% be dead without it. Can't be a stand alone story. He'd be dead without turning to charity. Doctors ignored him and didn't look into the huge amount of pills they were feeding him which all added to his liver damage. Basically told to fuck off and die by the system.

Also, although not quite related, he got compensation for being attacked by a previously mentioned hammer but due to the payout they stopped his disability money, which they continue to do regularly and the comp wasn't even worth talking about value wise. He also has to fill out forms and be revaluated every 3 months to receive the disability money which he can't do himself. And to add to that his compensation was instantly halved due to having a criminal record which I kid you not was a minor scuffle at a cov away game when he was 15.
 
Last edited: May 11, 2021
Reactions: shmmeee and SBAndy

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,048
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
And if you asked a general member of the public how they'd expect the conversation to be on a football message board re: politics I bet most would say they'd expect it to be at least a bit to the right.
Click to expand...

Why? I wouldn’t.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,049
Fuck sake. It gets worse.

Not content with just stopping millions of young or disadvantaged from voting they introduce this...


 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,050
Wasn’t scaremongering about the EU enforcing ID cards part of the vote leave campaign?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,051
Given that this is apparently about protecting democracy how many of the changes recommended by the Russia report have been implemented by the Government? I’m hearing zero.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,052
Report into Russian / outside interference in election found it to have happened and be an ongoing risk, and identified some recommendations = Not one recommendation has been implemented.

Election fraud in this country to be found to be so low, it is classed as non-existant = ID cards for voters

Legislation to make Protesting illegal = stopping reducing free speech.

Legislation to prevent universities for cancelling speakers that may have far right or xenophobic views and allow them to sue for damages = promoting 'free' speech

Fuck me this country is led by a load of Charlatans.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849 and Brighton Sky Blue
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,053
stupot07 said:
Report into Russian / outside interference in election found it to have happened and be an ongoing risk, and identified some recommendations = Not one recommendation has been implemented.

Election fraud in this country to be found to be so low, it is classed as non-existant = ID cards for voters

Legislation to make Protesting illegal = stopping reducing free speech.

Legislation to prevent universities for cancelling speakers that may have far right or xenophobic views and allow them to sue for damages = promoting 'free' speech

Fuck me this country is led by a load of Charlatans.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You spelt fascists wrong
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,054
Prove me wrong @bezzer
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,055
hill83 said:
Anecdotal but my dad has had mental health issues for around 15 years. (after being attacked with a hammer, which I found out about on the front page of the cov telegraph but that's another story).
He was pumped full of pills for years and turned to alcohol and has nearly died because of it a couple of times.
He was completely left to his own devices and turned down for any care due to his drinking. Luckily his ex works in social care and pulled a few strings to get him into rehab in Kent which is a charity run place. (He's still there now and hasn't had a drink since last October)

He'd 100% be dead without it. Can't be a stand alone story. He'd be dead without turning to charity. Doctors ignored him and didn't look into the huge amount of pills they were feeding him which all added to his liver damage. Basically told to fuck off and die by the system.

Also, although not quite related, he got compensation for being attacked by a previously mentioned hammer but due to the payout they stopped his disability money, which they continue to do regularly and the comp wasn't even worth talking about value wise. He also has to fill out forms and be revaluated every 3 months to receive the disability money which he can't do himself. And to add to that his compensation was instantly halved due to having a criminal record which I kid you not was a minor scuffle at a cov away game when he was 15.
Click to expand...
Pressing like on that does't seem right. What a horrific thing to happen. Glad he's getting some help now.

My ex worked in mental health. Cuts were made (as part of the top down reorganisation Cameron promised wouldn't happen) which they knew would impact on the ability to provide the server and, at best, huge delays in getting people into the correct facilities. They raised their concerns to senior management and the response was a warning they'd be sacked if they spoke to the press.

Within a matter of months there was more than one death, including a murder, that was blamed on lack of available mental health services, exactly what they'd warned would happen and been told to shut up about.

The people higher up the chain are perfectly aware of these issues, they're just happy to ignore them.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,056
skybluetony176 said:
Wasn’t scaremongering about the EU enforcing ID cards part of the vote leave campaign?
Click to expand...
Still waiting for Dom to feed back from his Tory Facebook groups....
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,057
chiefdave said:
Pressing like on that does't seem right. What a horrific thing to happen. Glad he's getting some help now.

My ex worked in mental health. Cuts were made (as part of the top down reorganisation Cameron promised wouldn't happen) which they knew would impact on the ability to provide the server and, at best, huge delays in getting people into the correct facilities. They raised their concerns to senior management and the response was a warning they'd be sacked if they spoke to the press.

Within a matter of months there was more than one death, including a murder, that was blamed on lack of available mental health services, exactly what they'd warned would happen and been told to shut up about.

The people higher up the chain are perfectly aware of these issues, they're just happy to ignore them.
Click to expand...

I couldn't hit 'like' either - it felt wrong.

Services in this country (and others to be fair) get cut so badly and it's the charities, volunteers and unpaid overtime that are left to pick up the slack. Salt of the earth decent people trying to make other's lives better and no matter how much they get foisted on them they try and fill the gap.

But sometimes I wonder if it might be better long term if they stopped for a bit. Show just how much we rely on the people that do these things for nothing to make anything work.

Governments might run the country, but these are the people that make the country run.
 
Reactions: chiefdave

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,058
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I couldn't hit 'like' either - it felt wrong.

Services in this country (and others to be fair) get cut so badly and it's the charities, volunteers and unpaid overtime that are left to pick up the slack. Salt of the earth decent people trying to make other's lives better and no matter how much they get foisted on them they try and fill the gap.

But sometimes I wonder if it might be better long term if they stopped for a bit. Show just how much we rely on the people that do these things for nothing to make anything work.

Governments might run the country, but these are the people that make the country run.
Click to expand...

Problem is these people mostly suffer in silence away from society. Shut in homes or drinking themselves to death. Maybe you notice a few more homeless people.

People who’ve never had to work for a living like Johnson just don’t understand the problem. They can buy their way out of any issues.
 
Reactions: oakey and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

hill83

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,059
shmmeee said:
Problem is these people mostly suffer in silence away from society. Shut in homes or drinking themselves to death. Maybe you notice a few more homeless people.

People who’ve never had to work for a living like Johnson just don’t understand the problem. They can buy their way out of any issues.
Click to expand...

My dads mate, and someone I considered a friend killed themselves on new years day last year after their disability money was stopped. Also had mental health issues.
 
Reactions: Nick and Sky_Blue_Dreamer
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,060
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue

MusicDating

Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,061
Ian1779 said:
So what do we reckon for the Batley & Spen by election? Another dropped in candidate with no connection to the area or the people, or will they think about what happened in Hartlepool? 60% Leave constituency and the Labour MP has a 3,500 majority.
Click to expand...
The Tories are 1.32 to win the seat with the incumbent party Labour 3.3 to hold on to it.
 

MusicDating

Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,062

Politics is no longer about left or right, as the Tories have realised to their advantage | Lee de Wit

How should Labour respond to the Conservatives’ mix of social conservatism and state intervention, asks political psychologist Lee de Wit
www.theguardian.com
 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • May 11, 2021
  • #3,063
MusicDating said:
The Tories are 1.32 to win the seat with the incumbent party Labour 3.3 to hold on to it.
Click to expand...

It'll be closer than Hartlepool, local elections last week had the Tories only a few votes ahead on a small turnout.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,064
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,065
shmmeee said:
View attachment 20069
Click to expand...

Yes but can you throw a custard pie while sneakily helping yourself to the public purse?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,066
David O'Day said:
It'll be closer than Hartlepool, local elections last week had the Tories only a few votes ahead on a small turnout.
Click to expand...

It's a more 'metropolitan' constituency being in the big Leeds / Bradford conurbation, but can't see anything but an easy Tory win.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,067
fernandopartridge said:
It's a more 'metropolitan' constituency being in the big Leeds / Bradford conurbation, but can't see anything but an easy Tory win.
Click to expand...

Think you’re right, which is kinda depressing considering it’s Jo Cox’s old seat and that’ll mean the ratty little terrorist got what he wanted.
 
Reactions: Ian1779

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,068
Brighton Sky Blue said:
The opposition puts forwards policies people like but don’t vote for because it’s all about personalities and perception
Click to expand...

Not really true, is it?

Labour haemorrhaged votes on both sides of the Brexit debate. Lost around 1 million votes to the Lib Dem’s and the Greens and about 800 thousand votes to the Brexit Party and the Tories. The Remainer’s were not happy happy with Labour lack of commitment to a second referendum whilst the Leaver’s weren’t happy at Labour’s lack of commitment to Brexit.

In the aftermath of the election, Momentum campaigners and even McDonnell conceded the manifesto program was meant for a 10 year government. On the doorstep, campaigners found people didn’t find the overall Labour offering to be credible.

Having popular policies is one thing, but it has to fit into a wider, viable program for government. Which was lacking a coherent policy on the issue of the day: Brexit.
 
Reactions: SomersetSB and Grendel
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,069
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Not really true, is it?

Labour haemorrhaged votes on both sides of the Brexit debate. Lost around 1 million votes to the Lib Dem’s and the Greens and about 800 thousand votes to the Brexit Party and the Tories. The Remainer’s were not happy happy with Labour lack of commitment to a second referendum whilst the Leaver’s weren’t happy at Labour’s lack of commitment to Brexit.

In the aftermath of the election, Momentum campaigners and even McDonnell conceded the manifesto program was meant for a 10 year government. On the doorstep, campaigners found people didn’t find the overall Labour offering to be credible.

Having popular policies is one thing, but it has to fit into a wider, viable program for government. Which was lacking a coherent policy on the issue of the day: Brexit.
Click to expand...

Very much true when people are polled on their perceptions of the parties and politicians compared to their policy preferences. The Conservatives did a terrible job of their 10 years in government and got rewarded with a bumper majority off the back of a meaningless 3 word slogan.

It’s not about anything substantive really is it? Johnson polls as ‘looking more ministerial’ whereas Corbyn polled better on ‘cares about people like me’. And of course that woman on QT who voted Tory but seemed genuinely upset and surprised at her benefits being cut and it harder to get by. The formula is:

Long words
Posh accent
Acting like a rumbunctious clown
Wave the flag
Raise the pint

Bumper majority
 
Reactions: Ian1779 and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,070
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Very much true when people are polled on their perceptions of the parties and politicians compared to their policy preferences. The Conservatives did a terrible job of their 10 years in government and got rewarded with a bumper majority off the back of a meaningless 3 word slogan.

It’s not about anything substantive really is it? Johnson polls as ‘looking more ministerial’ whereas Corbyn polled better on ‘cares about people like me’. And of course that woman on QT who voted Tory but seemed genuinely upset and surprised at her benefits being cut and it harder to get by. The formula is:

Long words
Posh accent
Acting like a rumbunctious clown
Wave the flag
Raise the pint

Bumper majority
Click to expand...

It is substantive

We used to run focus groups at Jaguar and it was owners of other luxury brands. So we’d ask what they’d like to see in a car and not tell them what marque the car was but then say the car meets all the criteria they apparently want

It gave people in engineering a warm feeling but it missed the point. The brand was tarnished and as soon as you revealed it’s a Jaguar no one wanted to be associated with it even though it ticked boxes. Old mans brand, behind the game, can’t be true, need to buy two as one will be in the garage
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,071
Grendel said:
It is substantive

We used to run focus groups at Jaguar and it was owners of other luxury brands. So we’d ask what they’d like to see in a car and not tell them what marque the car was but then say the car meets all the criteria they apparently want

It gave people in engineering a warm feeling but it missed the point. The brand was tarnished and as soon as you revealed it’s a Jaguar no one wanted to be associated with it even though it ticked boxes. Old mans brand, behind the game, can’t be true, need to buy two as one will be in the garage
Click to expand...

Thank you for proving my point.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,072
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Johnson polls as ‘looking more ministerial’
Click to expand...
You'd be deeply upset losing that poll!
 
Reactions: fatso and Brighton Sky Blue

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,073
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Thank you for proving my point.
Click to expand...

I haven’t. My point is no one believes Labour will deliver these promises without substantial damage to the economy and individual lives.

Even McDonald admitted a run on the pound didn’t he? So if the Tories promises these they’d believe they are at least capable of potential delivery - Labour they would see as the cost of delivery would impact them negatively and would just assume they are incompetent liars
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,074
Grendel said:
I haven’t. My point is no one believes Labour will deliver these promises without substantial damage to the economy and individual lives.

Even McDonald admitted a run on the pound didn’t he? So if the Tories promises these they’d believe they are at least capable of potential delivery - Labour they would see as the cost of delivery would impact them negatively and would just assume they are incompetent liars
Click to expand...

Which is all a matter of perception and not the substantive truth. George Osborne admitted that ‘Labour crashed the economy’ was spin that worked better than even he had hoped. He also went on to concede that the Brown government acted reasonably and they would likely have reacted similarly to the crisis.

Realise it or not you have proven my point quite effectively
 
Reactions: oakey and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,075
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Which is all a matter of perception and not the substantive truth. George Osborne admitted that ‘Labour crashed the economy’ was spin that worked better than even he had hoped. He also went on to concede that the Brown government acted reasonably and they would likely have reacted similarly to the crisis.

Realise it or not you have proven my point quite effectively
Click to expand...

No I haven’t. Labour have a massive credibility issue. It’s easy to pat themselves on the back and say the public like our policies. The problem is they are seen as incompetent and more importantly likely to cost more in the pocket

if you ask would you like zero income tax I’m sure people would

Get a focus group and show a picture of Len Mccloskey and ask would you vote for a party that gets funding from this man. If the answer is a resounding no what are you going to do
 
Reactions: SomersetSB
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,076
Grendel said:
No I haven’t. Labour have a massive credibility issue. It’s easy to pat themselves on the back and say the public like our policies. The problem is they are seen as incompetent and more importantly likely to cost more in the pocket

if you ask would you like zero income tax I’m sure people would

Get a focus group and show a picture of Len Mccloskey and ask would you vote for a party that gets funding from this man. If the answer is a resounding no what are you going to do
Click to expand...

My point was perception overrides substance-all you are saying reinforces that. I’m sure we could show all the rather wealthy donors to the Tories if you really want to go down that route.

I’m sure Starmer laughing at the teaching unions killed that off anyway
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,077
Brighton Sky Blue said:
My point was perception overrides substance-all you are saying reinforces that. I’m sure we could show all the rather wealthy donors to the Tories if you really want to go down that route.

I’m sure Starmer laughing at the teaching unions killed that off anyway
Click to expand...

There is no substance to a manifesto - it isn’t a binding contract - McDonnell eventually admitted a lot was undeliverable in a term anyway didn’t he?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,078
Grendel said:
There is no substance to a manifesto - it isn’t a binding contract - McDonnell eventually admitted a lot was undeliverable in a term anyway didn’t he?
Click to expand...

The 2019 manifesto became a desperate effort to take the narrative away from Brexit, even I had a hard time voting Labour then. The perception that Labour wrecked the economy in 2008 still carries strongly now and it originated from Osborne and Cameron’s bullshitting, admitted to be so years afterwards.

A manifesto is not binding but is also not meaningless as promises made to the electorate.
 
Reactions: oakey

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,079
Grendel said:
It is substantive

We used to run focus groups at Jaguar and it was owners of other luxury brands. So we’d ask what they’d like to see in a car and not tell them what marque the car was but then say the car meets all the criteria they apparently want

It gave people in engineering a warm feeling but it missed the point. The brand was tarnished and as soon as you revealed it’s a Jaguar no one wanted to be associated with it even though it ticked boxes. Old mans brand, behind the game, can’t be true, need to buy two as one will be in the garage
Click to expand...

Exactly. The perception does not equal the truth. I've not been paying attention over the last few years but I know in reliability surveys Jag were one of the top rated brands but amongst the general public it still had that 'will it break down?' mentality towards it, as had any British name due to an archaic opinion based on the BL period of the 1970's. Mercs on the otherhand people had an opinion were bulletproof despite the build quality and reliability have fallen of a cliff.

You can then relate that to politics where you've got an opinion of Labour's abilities largely based still on a view from the 1970's whereas the Tories have a reputation enhanced way beyond what they are actually achieving.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • May 12, 2021
  • #3,080
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Very much true when people are polled on their perceptions of the parties and politicians compared to their policy preferences. The Conservatives did a terrible job of their 10 years in government and got rewarded with a bumper majority off the back of a meaningless 3 word slogan.

It’s not about anything substantive really is it? Johnson polls as ‘looking more ministerial’ whereas Corbyn polled better on ‘cares about people like me’. And of course that woman on QT who voted Tory but seemed genuinely upset and surprised at her benefits being cut and it harder to get by. The formula is:

Long words
Posh accent
Acting like a rumbunctious clown
Wave the flag
Raise the pint

Bumper majority
Click to expand...

With all due respect, this kind of thinking is exactly why Labour finds itself out of touch with the electorate.

The party just doesn’t seem capable of confronting its own electoral failures. Generally, its traditional working class base feels like the Labour Party is a party for the cities and middle class graduates. Brexit accelerated the disconnect for a number of reasons as, frankly, the Labour establishment failed to understand why people voted for Brexit in the first place. Increasingly, fringe social issues and a fixation on identity politics has only exasperated the disconnect between the Party and its traditional base.

It’s also worth noting that Labour has literally given up and made no effort to try and discredit the SNP to win back some Scottish seats. Hence, you’ve got the Tories as the second largest Scottish party now.

The Labour Party has shown nothing it’s learned anything from its wipeout in Scotland, and risks the same thing across the Red Wall.

There are serious issues with the Labour Party that it needs to confront or it’ll face electoral oblivion and/or extinction.
There are serious issues with the Labour Party that it needs to confront or it’ll face electoral oblivion and/or extinction.
 
Reactions: bezzer, SomersetSB and Grendel
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